Taxing the Poor

Backstreet Moyes

I never seen it before but surely to god this is outrageous. Started a TUS job their 6 weeks ago where i was told you get €20 extra a week for 19.5 hours. Roll on my first payment a few weeks ago and i seen i got taxed €9.60 out of the €20 extra. So instead of the extra €1.02 an hour you are getting €0.54 cent an hour. Some people have their views as this system being exploitation but i am enjoying the scheme.

I am in my second week in my job and im enjoying it and getting experience on my c.v. and a routine so i am happy enough. But surely to god taxing people on this scheme is just a further kick in the teeth. Like i said i am enjoying it but getting lunches and travel to work is seeing me ending up with less money than i would have had sitting around doing nothing all day. I am happy getting some experience but surely to god this is just ridicolous to tax people on the scheme. How is taxing people on the scheme going to encourage people to want to take up these jobs. The people i am working with are lovely and i'm enjoying it but i think it's disgraceful to tax people who are getting so little as it is.

Senna

Is it tax or is it PRSI?

Celly Smunt

I honestly don't know how people can feel comfortable sitting on the dole with the "I'll get the same amount of money for working as I would signing on" attitude.Id much rather work for 188 a week than sit around for it.

I aim this mostly at people who have opportunities to work in a minimum wage job but refuse to as in "wouldn't be worth my while" sort of way,not the people who genuinely can't find work,but would grab an opportunity matter what the wage.
Working for me is more than monetary.Its about being independent and paying my own way in life no matter how difficult or crap the job might be.The curse of pride is suppose.

WeirdKen

Sounds like emergency tax...

Backstreet Moyes

Senna wrote: »

Is it tax or is it PRSI?

Fairly sure it's Tax.

Also pmcmahon i am happy working. I just feel it's disgraceful to tax people who are going down these 19.5 hours per week. I would have more money sitting around scratching my arse all day than i do after travel expenses.

dxhound2005

Nuts102 wrote: »

I never seen it before but surely to god this is outrageous. Started a TUS job their 6 weeks ago where i was told you get €20 extra a week for 19.5 hours. Roll on my first payment a few weeks ago and i seen i got taxed €9.60 out of the €20 extra. So instead of the extra €1.02 an hour you are getting €0.54 cent an hour. Some people have their views as this system being exploitation but i am enjoying the scheme.

I am in my second week in my job and im enjoying it and getting experience on my c.v. and a routine so i am happy enough. But surely to god taxing people on this scheme is just a further kick in the teeth. Like i said i am enjoying it but getting lunches and travel to work is seeing me ending up with less money than i would have had sitting around doing nothing all day. I am happy getting some experience but surely to god this is just ridicolous to tax people on the scheme. How is taxing people on the scheme going to encourage people to want to take up these jobs. The people i am working with are lovely and i'm enjoying it but i think it's disgraceful to tax people who are getting so little as it is.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/unemployment_and_redundancy/employment_support_schemes/tus.html

Tax and PRSI

The Tús payment is taxable but the amount payable depends on individual circumstances.

Class A PRSI contributions will be paid for all participants. Those earning more than €352 a week will pay a PRSI contribution.

Participants on the Tús scheme are exempt from the Universal Social Charge.

Anyone here giving you advice won't be aware of your individual circumstances. You probably need to contact the tax office.

Stark

Nuts102 wrote: »

I never seen it before but surely to god this is outrageous. Started a TUS job their 6 weeks ago where i was told you get €20 extra a week for 19.5 hours. Roll on my first payment a few weeks ago and i seen i got taxed €9.60 out of the €20 extra. So instead of the extra €1.02 an hour you are getting €0.54 cent an hour. Some people have their views as this system being exploitation but i am enjoying the scheme.

Are you sure you're not on emergency tax?

7 7 12

whats TUS?

Ray Palmer

The whole "I get the same on the dole" idea is pretty much being kicked away. If you no longer engage in retraining or back to work schemes they dock money now. The process has started but will take a while to fully hit everybody.

Long term unemployed are being called in and getting docked €40 a week for not engaging. I am hearing the reports from front line staff as they tell the clients. They aren't happy about being told but it hasn't been deducted from many.

The OP sounds to be on emergency tax but ignorance of the basics normally goes straight to outrage. Glad I don't have to deal with them

mikemac1

7 7 12 wrote: »

whats TUS?

I'd never heard of either

Community employment
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/unemployment_and_redundancy/employment_support_schemes/tus.html

Bruthal

pmcmahon wrote: »

I honestly don't know how people can feel comfortable sitting on the dole with the "I'll get the same amount of money for working as I would signing on" attitude.Id much rather work for 188 a week than sit around for it.

I bet you are not working for 188 though, with a mortgage and bills, are you?

sebastianlieken

Nuts102 wrote: »

I never seen it before but ....

You've lost me already.

Bruthal

Bruthal wrote: »

I bet you are not working for 188 though, with a mortgage and bills, are you?

I'd rather work for 188 than not work

Bruthal

bluewolf wrote: »

I'd rather work for 188 than not work

So if you had mortgage arrears, then lost job, but find a new job for 188 a week, but getting to work costs you 50 a week, leaving you 138 a week without factoring in other likely work related expenses, you would do that? So the new job will in fact leave you in more trouble.

I dont think you would. Its easy to post the correct answer you know others like to see on boards, which is common all over the site. You may even genuinely believe it. But the reality if you faced it, may be different, depending on circumstances.

I don't have a mortgage, and my own personal preference on preferring to work than otherwise is not a question of a "correct answer"

mkdon05

bluewolf wrote: »

I don't have a mortgage, and my own personal preference on preferring to work than otherwise is not a question of a "correct answer"

So you would rather work and put yourself into more financial bother? That's clever.

Death and Taxes

Nuts102 wrote: »

I never seen it before but surely to god this is outrageous. Started a TUS job their 6 weeks ago where i was told you get €20 extra a week for 19.5 hours. Roll on my first payment a few weeks ago and i seen i got taxed €9.60 out of the €20 extra. So instead of the extra €1.02 an hour you are getting €0.54 cent an hour. Some people have their views as this system being exploitation but i am enjoying the scheme.

I am in my second week in my job and im enjoying it and getting experience on my c.v. and a routine so i am happy enough. But surely to god taxing people on this scheme is just a further kick in the teeth. Like i said i am enjoying it but getting lunches and travel to work is seeing me ending up with less money than i would have had sitting around doing nothing all day. I am happy getting some experience but surely to god this is just ridicolous to tax people on the scheme. How is taxing people on the scheme going to encourage people to want to take up these jobs. The people i am working with are lovely and i'm enjoying it but i think it's disgraceful to tax people who are getting so little as it is.

You are getting paid to get experience, you are working in a nice place with nice people and all you can do is whinge!
You are looking at this the wrong way, you need to look at this as you investing in your future employability, gaining this experience will stand to you in the future and increase your earning potential.

Bruthal

bluewolf wrote: »

I don't have a mortgage,

As I said, circumstances are the key to what some people do.

and my own personal preference on preferring to work than otherwise is not a question of a "correct answer"

Ok so if you had 200k mortgage, €500 a week job, lost job, now 6 months arrears and severely struggling on 188 a week, you would take a job for 188 a week, even though petrol costs 40 a week, so you now struggle even more? All because you prefer to work?

So preferring to work overcomes trying to survive? Not everyone is on the dole because they like it.

seanmacc

bluewolf wrote: »

I'd rather work for 188 than not work

If you're working for 188euro a week its obviously a job thats not worth doing if you are not generating more that 188euro's worth of economic activity for the employer. So working full time for 188euro a week is exploitation.

smash

Poor people should get off the Internet and concentrate on trying to not be poor any more! :pac:

Senna

Bruthal wrote: »

So preferring to work overcomes trying to survive? Not everyone is on the dole because they like it.

I suppose you cant put a price on self-worth, is that €40 a week going to clear up all your troubles? or is it likely that by working you may increase your chances of finding F/T better paying work?

Would an new prospective employer rather see a CV with continuous work and candidate telling them that they basically worked for their dole, even in the most menial of jobs. Or would they prefer to hear "its not worth my while to work"?

Madam_X

I'd much prefer to work too, but if a person got a job that, after travel and other essential expenses, paid less than unemployment benefits, really landing them in "barely scraping by" territory (due to their circumstances - not everyone gets to live a charmed life on the dole, as the myth goes) I wouldn't blame them for holding out for a job that would leave them with at least the same income as that from the benefits.

Getting out to work is important, but so is income.

Bruthal

Senna wrote: »

I suppose you cant put a price on self-worth, is that €40 a week going to clear up all your troubles? or is it likely that by working you may increase your chances of finding F/T better paying work?

Would an new prospective employer rather see a CV with continuous work and candidate telling them that they basically worked for their dole, even in the most menial of jobs. Or would they prefer to hear "its not worth my while to work"?

Like many posters on boards do when posting, just say what you know the employer wants to hear, rather than what you really mean or would do in reality. Id imagine most employers would love to hear you will work for very little.


The €40 a week I mentioned is -€40 a week. As in worse off.

Bruthal

Madam_X wrote: »

I'd much prefer to work too, but if a person got a job that, after travel and other essential expenses, paid less than unemployment benefits, really landing them in "barely scraping by" territory (due to their circumstances - not everyone gets to live a charmed life on the dole, as the myth goes) I wouldn't blame them for holding out for a job that would leave them with at least the same income as that from the benefits.

Getting out to work is important, but so is income.

Yes, that`s more realistic imo. Not taking a job that leaves you worse off doesn`t mean a person doesn`t prefer to work. Its all about the circumstances.

There is a fair difference between someone living with parents and no expenses, and someone else with a mortgage, bills and family.

Rasheed

Bruthal wrote: »

Like many posters on boards do when posting, just say what you know the employer wants to hear, rather than what you really mean or would do in reality. Id imagine most employers would love to hear you will work for very little.


The €40 a week I mentioned is -€40 a week. As in worse off.

Everybody is different. If I, god forbid, lost my job tomorrow, TÚS or jobsbridge would suit me grand.

This is only because I've no children, no mortgage and no major bills.

€30/40 extra a week with these schemes may have to pay for more petrol, childminding and lunch. That and a much more limited chance of picking up a nixer.

It's sometimes just bit viable and I would never look down on someone who it genuinely wouldn't pay them to take part in these schemes.

Czarcasm

Madam_X wrote: »

I'd much prefer to work too, but if a person got a job that, after travel and other essential expenses, paid less than unemployment benefits, really landing them in "barely scraping by" territory, I wouldn't blame them for holding out for a job that would leave them with at least the same income as that from the benefits.

Getting out to work is important, but so is income.

I know it's generally considered "income", but social welfare in my opinion should not be classed as income because in my opinion- it's not something a person earns, it's something they are given, by the state.

Ok I know it's "income, coming in", hence the general term, but like I say- personal opinion, usually kept to myself, until somebody mentions they consider social welfare an income when it's really state assistance.

/twitchy eyeball

As for the TUS program and the idea of temporarily being "out of pocket" as such for participating on the program- well the idea is to get a person back into the workforce. As I understand it you would be getting a travel allowance and usually the work isn't that far away from you that it'd cost you €40 a week in travel.

Just reading the OP there you are indeed considered employed, so you could well be paying both PRSI and PAYE. Myself personally I think it's just a way for the government to jig the figures to say there are less people on social welfare queues and more people in employment. Really they're only fooling themselves because the money is still coming from the state coffers.

As for the idea of working for less right now with the potential to earn more- do most people not do that anyway when they're training or upskilling? Certainly anyone whose done an apprenticeship or been through third level education has done it.

You really shouldn't have the choice to depend on social welfare as it's a payment that the government can slash in the morning if they wanted, so any opportunity to upskill or re-train yourself should be embraced with both hands. It might be less now, but with the right motivation and mental attitude, you're back in the workforce and on your way to creating a better future for yourself.

As for the hypothetical "been let go from job, mortgage arrears, bills, etc" and the potential of being on temporarily less money- the quicker you act not to bury your head in the sand and let the bills/arrears pile up, the better position you're in to negotiate repayment options with the financial institutions and utility companies.

There are all manner of support systems in place to assist in cases like the above, but half the time people don't want to avail of them because it means admitting they messed up. They let the situation get out of control, inevitably leaving themselves in a position where they are that much harder to help when people want to help them.

Ray Palmer

Madam_X wrote: »

Getting out to work is important, but so is income.

Hence the change to the system. Don't engage and you get less money.
People come in with barely any education and refuse to learn anything as they don't want to. No longer is this acceptable and dole is cut.
Say you won't do a scheme as you only get a small amount extra and your dole is cut.
Basically the argument of being no better off is gone you will be worse off if you don't.
Unable to find any option you want from the system and your dole is cut.
The only issue I have with it is that single parents don't have this pressure. As most are women it seems sexist

Bruthal

Czarcasm wrote: »

There are all manner of support systems in place to assist in cases like the above,

They wont do much good for a person preferring to work for 188, the weekly expenses (not including arrears)will still be the same as before they ran into arrears, except now they have no job.

but half the time people don't want to avail of them because it means admitting they messed up.

In reality, many in this country are in that position because others messed up.

They let the situation get out of control, inevitably leaving themselves in a position where they are that much harder to help when people want to help them.

Never happend to you though im guessing? Me either. But insight, or at least the attempt at it, tells me many are worse off than me through no fault of their own.

PlainP

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Hence the change to the system. Don't engage and you get less money.
People come in with barely any education and refuse to learn anything as they don't want to. No longer is this acceptable and dole is cut.
Say you won't do a scheme as you only get a small amount extra and your dole is cut.
Basically the argument of being no better off is gone you will be worse off if you don't.
Unable to find any option you want from the system and your dole is cut.
The only issue I have with it is that single parents don't have this pressure. As most are women it seems sexist

Actually OPFP is getting cut, every year the age is falling in relation to your claim and by 2015 no person will be allowed to claim OPFP for a child over the age of seven.
What's with the sexist comment???

Bruthal

Ray Palmer wrote: »

The only issue I have with it is that single parents don't have this pressure. As most are women it seems sexist

I dont see how. Single parents is the criteria, not single female parents.

clairefontaine

The Irish have put up with enough. At some point they have to draw a line and not allow businesses to get free labour.

Why would you ever hire someone and pay a real salary if you can get the government to pay less than minimum wage for your labour force?

You will never see job growth if this continues. You may think you are investing in your future. You are not but you are complicit in the scam. There is no future with these policies.