Croke Park II preliminary Talks started today

Farmer Pudsey · 05-02-2013 12:22AM

tayto lover wrote: »

I lived and worked through strikes in my time and have great respect for people who stand up for their rights.
We had a Blue Flu a few years ago and as a result the Gardai got what they wanted i.e. better pay.
They are not looking for better pay now - just a retention of what they have been left with after all the other cuts they took. I spoke to a Garda recently who told me that if they refused to use their own cars or phones the organisation could not function. he said he though a new Blue Flu was very likely in the near future as some of them couldn't pay bills after the existing cuts.
The teachers could disrupt the country if they went out. People would have to miss work to mind their children. The nurses as well.
The army can't do all those jobs either.

woodoo wrote: »

One of the strongest cards the PS workers have is that they have been covering the work of all those that have retired/left and have not been replaced. In a work to rule there would be major problems as people refuse to continue doing that extra work.

I think that there is a misconception going around that the government might allow limited industrial action. I think that they would have to meet it head on. Do you think that the Labour party and Brendan Howlin are holding these negoations because they want to. There hands are tied.

Most of the unions know that and know that if they walk away that an accross the board pay cut will be imposed. It was always likly that the Guards would walk. If the newspapers are telling the truth last weekend then for most Guards Saturday and Sunday are not part of there working week rather it is always worked on overtime. I was always under the assumption that like nurses and prision officiers that it was part of there working week and they recieved an allowance for it. However according to the newspapers it is not.

Most union leaders know that there has to be a deal and they all know that for some area's it will be more unpalatable than others. Watch Liam Doran keeping well away from the Guards and the Teachers.

ardmacha · 05-02-2013 12:44AM

I wouldn't wish what has happened to PS pay in Greece and Portugal to happen here but bear in mind those cuts have been more severe

What did happen to PS pay in Portugal, exactly?

fall · 05-02-2013 11:00AM

I also feel there is no acknowledgement of the increased work load that public sector workers have taken on as those who retired were not replaced. Some schools now have no senior management left except for principal and deputy principal and the work has been taken on for free by the remaining staff although the union suggests that it should not be. Schools would have closed by now without this good will as the roles vacated are generally vital to the day to day running of the school.
So in addition to the wage decreases already incurred work loads and pressure have increased and there is no opportunity for promotion. This is why another cut is very hard to swallow and as I have said here before I have friends working in the private sector eg. Ifsc, citywest and a number of pharmaceutical companies and they are all still receiving their reviews and/or bonuses.

tayto lover · 05-02-2013 11:03AM

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

I think that there is a misconception going around that the government might allow limited industrial action. I think that they would have to meet it head on. Do you think that the Labour party and Brendan Howlin are holding these negoations because they want to. There hands are tied.

Most of the unions know that and know that if they walk away that an accross the board pay cut will be imposed. It was always likly that the Guards would walk. If the newspapers are telling the truth last weekend then for most Guards Saturday and Sunday are not part of there working week rather it is always worked on overtime. I was always under the assumption that like nurses and prision officiers that it was part of there working week and they recieved an allowance for it. However according to the newspapers it is not.

Most union leaders know that there has to be a deal and they all know that for some area's it will be more unpalatable than others. Watch Liam Doran keeping well away from the Guards and the Teachers.

This is a post from a garda on the Garda Dispute thread.
I can't see how they could survive another cut after reading this.
Listening to some lads on here I would have thought the Garda take home pay was at least twice this.
Why should lads like this take another cut to an already hacked-to-bits wage?

audidiesel
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public opinion is pretty much already decided though. guards are being backed into a corner.

its easy to see how this escalates. personally im in favour of work to rule and also blue flu.

if we roll over and take these cuts im done in this job. making about 430 a week after tax and deductions. for the job i do, im not prepared to take any less and ive no problem fighting to keep it.

sean200 · 05-02-2013 01:05PM

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Public support is critical in winning any industrial action this is where Liam Doran is very good. Notice he is not running out of the tent. He understands that what ever happens he has to have the public support any fucture industrial action.
In 2008 the passport office strike/work to rule had to be shut down by the unions as the public would not support it. The same with the last attempt by the teachers. If the public will not support and are willing to take the pain the Government will stand firm.

You are right about the HSE and it goes accross the whole public service/local government administration and management is a disaster. Yet there are too many of these people and they are on massive money and yet the do not seem to have the ability to run the area's they are in charge of. There inability to manage staff accross the PS is a disaster it is this lax atitude that has crept in over the last 20 years that is a big issue.

Public support will not pay the bills or keep the roof over your children

The problem is that the idiots in this government asked for too much and itwould not surprise me if the INMO walk away today as the frontline alliance hasa meeting tomorrow.

They don’t want to impose a 7% pay cut as that is only a short term solutionand will not make the savings that all the other issues on the table will make long-term

So if I was the unions I would do the following

1) Take the 7% pay cut

2) Collapse crokepark 1

3) reverse all reform that has took place under crokepark 1

4) Break off all contact with the government

But the unions won’t do this as they think they are part of the running ofthis country

What I can’t understand is how did the Unions get themselves in to theposition of talking about crokepark 2 which would take 300 million of the wagesof the public sector in 2013 while crokepark 1 is not due to finish till June2014

Idiot's or what?

antoobrien · 05-02-2013 01:37PM

sean200 wrote: »

What I can’t understand is how did the Unions get themselves in to theposition of talking about crokepark 2 which would take 300 million of the wagesof the public sector in 2013 while crokepark 1 is not due to finish till June2014

Idiot's or what?

No the idiotic bit is the suggestion that we should wait until the last minute to negotiate the next steps. That would almost definitely lead to industrial action as the cuts would be imposed, rather than negotiated.

Brussels Sprout · 05-02-2013 02:35PM

After the AGSI and the GRU have decided not to participate then you get the feeling that the INMO decision is pivotal. If they also decide not to particupate then you could see momentum gathering and all the unions pulling out.

Paulzx · 05-02-2013 02:38PM

antoobrien wrote: »

No the idiotic bit is the suggestion that we should wait until the last minute to negotiate the next steps. That would almost definitely lead to industrial action as the cuts would be imposed, rather than negotiated.

There is nothing to stop them entering negotiations now in order to try and pin down an agreement for when CPA 1 ends next year.

The 300 million in paycutsl they are looking for this year is breaking the exisiting agreement.

If the governement is willing to break an exisiting agreement i have no idea why the unions are sitting down with them trying to negotiate a new one

If you act in bad faith once you'll do it again. Why aren't the government honest enough to admit they are trying to renegotiate an existing agreement.

Paulzx · 05-02-2013 02:39PM

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

After the AGSI and the GRU have decided not to participate then you get the feeling that the INMO decision is pivotal. If they also decide not to particupate then you could see momentum gathering and all the unions pulling out.

I think the governement have misjudged the mood this time. Most people accepted everything up until now but the prevailing feeling is enough is enough. If they persist i can see serious IR issues.

kippy · 05-02-2013 02:43PM

Paulzx wrote: »

There is nothing to stop them entering negotiations now in order to try and pin down an agreement for when CPA 1 ends next year.

The 300 million in paycutsl they are looking for this year is breaking the exisiting agreement.

If the governement is willing to break an exisiting agreement i have no idea why the unions are sitting down with them trying to negotiate a new one

If you act in bad faith once you'll do it again. Why aren't the government honest enough to admit they are trying to renegotiate an existing agreement.

The government, have feck all choice (outside of teeling the Troikia to feck off) in the matter.
The Troika are dictating what level of savings should be and when they should be made.
I think negotiating is a prudent way to achieve that.

05-02-2013 02:47PM

Paulzx wrote: »

I think the governement have misjudged the mood this time. Most people accepted everything up until now but the prevailing feeling is enough is enough. If they persist i can see serious IR issues.

Simply not enough money for the government to pay the bills, pay cuts will happen one way or another.

sean200 · 05-02-2013 03:16PM

antoobrien wrote: »

No the idiotic bit is the suggestion that we should wait until the last minute to negotiate the next steps. That would almost definitely lead to industrial action as the cuts would be imposed, rather than negotiated.

define last minute????
we are in 2013 this should be started in january 2014

Farmer Pudsey · 05-02-2013 03:18PM

Some contributors think that if the unions walk away from the talks that the government will back down. This is not the first time a Garda union misjudged the public mood. The Blu Flu was not a resounding and neither was the time they told FF that they would be waiting in the long grass for them.

The reality is that CP1 was a great deal for the public service unions. The unions know that leaving the government to cut pay by themselves like the last pay cut might embolden the government and that if there are issues 2-3 years down the line that they will cut again especially if no left wing party is in government. what are the chances that the next government may be FF and FG.

If the unions walk away it might suit the government it might decide on a compulsory redundancy scheme and a pay cut that would be much greater than what they are looking for now

sean200 · 05-02-2013 03:20PM

Paulzx wrote: »

There is nothing to stop them entering negotiations now in order to try and pin down an agreement for when CPA 1 ends next year.

The 300 million in paycutsl they are looking for this year is breaking the exisiting agreement.

If the governement is willing to break an exisiting agreement i have no idea why the unions are sitting down with them trying to negotiate a new one

If you act in bad faith once you'll do it again. Why aren't the government honest enough to admit they are trying to renegotiate an existing agreement.

Because the idiots of unions talked their way into it they got no mandatefrom their member to go into talks.

They should have ballot there member first but then that would cost moneyand they won’t spend that.

sean200 · 05-02-2013 03:27PM

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Some contributors think that if the unions walk away from the talks that the government will back down. This is not the first time a Garda union misjudged the public mood. The Blu Flu was not a resounding and neither was the time they told FF that they would be waiting in the long grass for them.

The reality is that CP1 was a great deal for the public service unions. The unions know that leaving the government to cut pay by themselves like the last pay cut might embolden the government and that if there are issues 2-3 years down the line that they will cut again especially if no left wing party is in government. what are the chances that the next government may be FF and FG.

If the unions walk away it might suit the government it might decide on a compulsory redundancy scheme and a pay cut that would be much greater than what they are looking for now

They got a 9% pay rise is that not resounding??

As for public mood the public sector are well past worrying about the public mood and how they bash the public sector every day.

noodler · 05-02-2013 03:30PM

sean200 wrote: »

define last minute????
we are in 2013 this should be started in january 2014

Well the deal ends in 2014.

Exact time is sketchy.

Is it from the time of the Budget 2010 pay cuts?

When the CP Deal outline was first agreed in March 2010?

Or when the majority of unions backed it in summer 2010?

In any case, negotiation well before 2014 begins is essential.

sean200 · 05-02-2013 03:33PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Simply not enough money for the government to pay the bills, pay cuts will happen one way or another.

I agree but they won’t get pay cuts and reform

Both sides have the calculators out to see which will deliver most

I believe a pay cut would be the best in the long-term for the workers butthe government require reform to deliver more money in the long-term

No guard or nurse is going to agree to work Sundays for nothing

The nurses have given the two fingers to Reilly by not applying for the jobsand they are not afraid to do more two finger waving

sean200 · 05-02-2013 03:34PM

noodler wrote: »

Well the deal ends in 2014.

Exact time is sketchy.

Is it from the time of the Budget 2010 pay cuts?

When the CP Deal outline was first agreed in March 2010?

Or when the majority of unions backed it in summer 2010?

In any case, negotiation well before 2014 begins is essential.

The agreement is dated June 2010

tayto lover · 05-02-2013 06:46PM

The entire PS should unite under one Union and start afresh.
I believe they should go on strike.
No cuts at the top and politicians awarding themselves extras all the time.
That would send out a very strong message.
No shortage of funds for them or their cronies and no word from the "feared" Troika about that either.

Brussels Sprout · 05-02-2013 06:59PM

tayto lover wrote: »

The entire PS should unite under one Union and start afresh.

Sounds like a sure fire way to screw the people at the bottom of the ladder by linking them to the people at the top. You end up with things like fixed percentage pay cuts across the board which disproportionately affect those at the bottom.

woodoo · 05-02-2013 08:59PM

Interesting times lie ahead, paycut one and the pension levy were reluctantly accepted as people knew they had to give something. But coming back a third time is not going to be as easy.

05-02-2013 09:17PM

woodoo wrote: »

Interesting times lie ahead, paycut one and the pension levy were reluctantly accepted as people knew they had to give something. But coming back a third time is not going to be as easy.

It will be easier than the governments task of finding money to pay the wages over the next few years. :rolleyes:

You would have to be crazy to loan money to Ireland with the current deficit that we have, we are heading to default in a few short years down the current road. Would you lend to someone that has such massive outgoings and is no where near paying their bills ? I will be shocked if we do not have a debt default within 5 years.

Our debt per capita is 2nd highest in the world(way worse than anybody in europe), and getting worse. Before you mention the banks, the vast majority of our debt has nothing to do with the banks. Its simply down to waste, political/public corruption, incompetence, High public sector wages and high social welfare payments.

. Bertie should be 6 foot under for his Fianna Fail version of socialism.

Have a read of our deficit situation before you think compromise will not be needed. You can add on another €14 Billion of debt for this year. Our debt ratio is ten times higher then the European average. Government debt is over 200 billion with the banks only making up 30% of that.

http://stats.areppim.com/stats/stats_xdebtxcapita_02x11_piigs.htm
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2012/1114/1224326573227.html

road_high · 05-02-2013 09:32PM

Deleted User wrote: »

It will be easier than the governments task of finding money to pay the wages over the next few years. :rolleyes:

You would have to be crazy to loan money to Ireland with the current deficit that we have, we are heading to default in a few short years down the current road. Would you lend to someone that has such massive outgoings and is no where near paying their bills ?

Our debt per capita is 2nd highest in the world, and getting worse. Before you mention the banks, the vast majority of our debt has nothing to do with the banks. Its simply down to waste, political/public corruption, incompetence, High public sector wages and high social welfare payments. . Bertie should be 6 foot under for his Fianna Fail version of socialism.

Have a read of our deficit situation before you think compromise will not be needed. You can add on another €14 Billion for this year.
http://stats.areppim.com/stats/stats_xdebtxcapita_02x11_piigs.htm

Exactly MayoMafia...reality still has not dawned yet though if this thread is anything to go by. All "we won't take anymore cuts" mantra....am no, the state which pays your wages is living way beyond it's means...when a large proportion of this spend is on PS wages it absolutely unavoidable that there be a cut to the bill.
Comparing your wage circumstances in the above scenario to profitable private sector concerns rewarding their employees with wage increases is frankly laughable...these organisations are not running a huge deficit, unlike Ireland INC. They would not last very long of they were not cutting wages drastically or numbers. Neither of which Ireland INC has done to date.

05-02-2013 09:40PM

road_high wrote: »

Exactly MayoMafia...reality still has not dawned yet though if this thread is anything to go by. All "we won't take anymore cuts" mantra....am no, the state which pays your wages is living way beyond it's means...when a large proportion of this spend is on PS wages it absolutely unavoidable that there be a cut to the bill.
Comparing your wage circumstances in the above scenario to profitable private sector concerns rewarding their employees with wage increases is frankly laughable...these organisations are not running a huge deficit, unlike Ireland INC. They would not last very long of they were not cutting wages drastically or numbers. Neither of which Ireland INC has done to date.

It appears its finally starting to dawn on some of our government and Unions, hence the current hurried negotiations. The easy money from Europe is coming to a stop very shortly. I would encourage default as there is no chance in hell we can pay back all that debt.

Obviously outgoings would then have to match income and it would mean cuts for all(its coming anyway). At least the next generation would not then be indebted because of a generation that repeatedly voted FF in for their own short sighted greed.

road_high · 05-02-2013 10:26PM

Deleted User wrote: »

It appears its finally starting to dawn on some of our government and Unions, hence the current hurried negotiations. The easy money from Europe is coming to a stop very shortly. I would encourage default as there is no chance in hell we can pay back all that debt.

Obviously outgoings would then have to match income and it would mean cuts for all(its coming anyway). At least the next generation would not then be indebted because of a generation that repeatedly voted FF in for their own short sighted greed.

Default would signal automatic cuts to pay as you point out. Funnily enough, not heard the Unions looking for this one as they know damn well that's what would happen.

woodoo · 05-02-2013 10:57PM

Deleted User wrote: »

It will be easier than the governments task of finding money to pay the wages over the next few years. :rolleyes:

You would have to be crazy to loan money to Ireland with the current deficit that we have, we are heading to default in a few short years down the current road. Would you lend to someone that has such massive outgoings and is no where near paying their bills ? I will be shocked if we do not have a debt default within 5 years.

Our debt per capita is 2nd highest in the world(way worse than anybody in europe), and getting worse. Before you mention the banks, the vast majority of our debt has nothing to do with the banks. Its simply down to waste, political/public corruption, incompetence, High public sector wages and high social welfare payments. . Bertie should be 6 foot under for his Fianna Fail version of socialism.

Have a read of our deficit situation before you think compromise will not be needed. You can add on another €14 Billion of debt for this year. Our debt ratio is ten times higher then the European average. Government debt is over 200 billion with the banks only making up 30% of that.

http://stats.areppim.com/stats/stats_xdebtxcapita_02x11_piigs.htm
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2012/1114/1224326573227.html

Spell out to me what cuts would close that deficit.

05-02-2013 11:31PM

woodoo wrote: »

Spell out to me what cuts would close that deficit.

I don't know, They could never cut the full amount as the economy would not function as it is already in a depressed state. They should be factoring in a balanced budget for a state that in equilibrium. Meaning unemployment less than half of current values.

Even if they got it down to a 6 or 7 billion deficit it would only mean 30-35 billion needed for the next five years(hopefully enough time to get out of this mess). They may get willing lenders for that scenario. The deficit was over 20 billion at the start of the crisis.

The interest on the current debt will be our biggest burden, some of this will have to be written off.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/weekend/2012/1201/1224327333640.html
Unfortunately than may mean some of the 100 billion in European bank liquidity disappearing. There is no easy way out of it. But the closer and sooner we get to closing the deficit the more options we have for bargaining.

"Not only is Ireland’s national debt huge, thanks to the bank rescue and large ongoing budget deficits, but it is still expanding rapidly. This sum is four times greater than in 2007, before the eruption of the crisis. A further €34 billion will be borrowed between 2013 and 2015." We will owe €230 billion by 2015 The interest bill alone will be bigger than our current deficit.

Pandering to unions and vested interests to slow down cuts has meant that we are left with a much bigger bill than should exist. In the end cuts will happen one way or the other. Except now we will be paying for them for alot longer. The debt repayment has just been delayed, it appears the youth starting work will be paying for it now instead of the generation who benefited most from it.

barneystinson · 05-02-2013 11:41PM

road_high wrote: »

Comparing your wage circumstances in the above scenario to profitable private sector concerns rewarding their employees with wage increases is frankly laughable...these organisations are not running a huge deficit, unlike Ireland INC. They would not last very long of they were not cutting wages drastically or numbers. Neither of which Ireland INC has done to date.

Ireland INC is a nonsense, a red herring - countries are not corporations, they aren't run with a profit motive - they raise revenue (through taxes & borrowing) solely in order to spend it, on providing services and stimulating economic growth.

05-02-2013 11:55PM

woodoo wrote: »

Spell out to me what cuts would close that deficit.

A start, One thing i would cut is foreign aid, and switch it to domestic aid. €650 million, we are a bankrupt country and not in a financial state to be the 2nd highest/capita aid donor in the world. Only behind a mineral rich Australia.

Neither would i be giving child benefit to non resident children. That's close to 1 Billion that will not have a negative effect on the cash registers of the service sector of this country, and by spending the aid domestically it would improve the economy here, increasing jobs and tax intake. Unfortunately too many "do gooders" (that are obviously not been effected) for that to happen here.

not yet · 06-02-2013 12:25AM

IBEC, ISME and ''some'' of the public seem to think the PS worker has no support..............lets look at the figures shall we.

290,000 PS workers, even assuming half are married, some with grown up kids, add to that brothers, sisters, mothers, fathers, etc etc etc. I would take a rough guess that 1 million plus either rely on a PS wage or have a close relationship with someone who does. So in my humble opinion there will be no cuts in PS pay below 50-60k,

So this utter b0llocks that there is no support for the PS is wrong......

Croke Park II preliminary Talks started today

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