Poetic Justice? Former Navy Seal Publicity-Seeking Sniper Chris Kyle Shot Dead

donegal_road · 03-02-2013 10:09PM

Blay wrote: »

If 30 years from now Iraq is a stable nation in the ME, with no tyrant in power and people are free to live as they choose will the war have been worth it?

why did the US choose to invade Iraq? Because Saddam was a tyrant and they wanted to make Iraq a better place without him? I dont think so

baldbear · 03-02-2013 10:12PM

LivelineDipso wrote: »

at a firing range?

That's a bit like a person sufferung from Herpes trying to get cured in a Brotel.

Yeah confront your fears even if that takes you to a knocking shop.

pablomakaveli · 03-02-2013 10:12PM

donegal_road wrote: »

why did the US choose to invade Iraq? Because Saddam was a tyrant and they wanted to make Iraq a better place without him? I dont think so

Take that up with Bush and his cohorts then. The soldiers didnt force him to send them there.

Witcher · 03-02-2013 10:17PM

donegal_road wrote: »

why did the US choose to invade Iraq? Because Saddam was a tyrant and they wanted to make Iraq a better place without him? I dont think so

I notice the question I posed in that post wasn't answered.

Do you think the US/Uk etc. leaving Saddam alone to rule the country as he liked and then passing the torch to his angelic progeny Uday or Qusay was preferable to the Iraq War? Yes or no..no bleating on about 'illegal war' and other sh1te.

--Kaiser-- · 03-02-2013 10:21PM

LivelineDipso wrote: »

In an illegal war for oil?

That's basically 160 murders if we are going to be pedantic about it.

'Illegal war' is one of the most hilarious of modern phrases. George Orwell would have loved it.

And if that was a war for oil, explain why most Iraqi oil contracts didn't go US companies and why Iraqi oil is under Iraqi control? Ignoring the fact that Persian imports account for only 15% of US oil usage. And the fact that war put the US in debt to the sum of trillions

Biggins · 03-02-2013 10:21PM

LivelineDipso wrote: »

I can't say I am neither surprised or saddened. This guy made an industry of the fact he killed 160 people.

He is typical of the gung-ho, trigger-happy Yank whom Americans adore as a defender of 'Freedum' and then they wonder why their country is essentially a psychiatric outpatient clinc.

Normal veterans tend to not want to talk about their combat experiences. He gloried in it and the attention he sought. His helping PTS troops always seemed like his phony 'good guy' angle. He spent the rest of his time training people to be as psychopathic as he was.

He was a bible nut too. (of course)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/feb/03/sniper-chris-kyle-shot-dead

* I believe he was doing his duty as ordered by the Army?

* How did he make an industry out of killing?

* He got that position by some serious testing in regards to skill, mental capacity and stableness.
(USA snipers are one of the most tested soldiers in the whole army and snipers are most certainly not 'typical' soldiers also)

* How was he "Gung-ho?" Any shots he would have took, would have been with express permission/clearance to open fire beforehand by top brass above him, in regards to single shots or continuous fire over a period of warfare.

* Snipers in fact are more stable soldiers and PTSD is much less in them later also. Snipers in fact make much less psychiatric outpatients.

* How did he glory in his actions? He wrote a book about the effects such action have on a persons mind during warfare.

* Had he indeed been "psychopathic" - he would NEVER have even got in the army, never mind being allowed to be a much checked and trained sniper.

* I personally don't see he being religious as being a detrimental factor.

tritium · 03-02-2013 11:10PM

The guy was a soldier, he followed orders. He doesn't decide the whys of the wars his country fights. To me he's no more or less deserving of respect than any of the other men and women on both sides who fought.

You train soldiers to be part of a killing machine, regardless of the country that trains them. Can't see why it's fair to criticise someone for actually excelling at what they were expected to do.

Plenty of other places to argue about the why's And wherefors that put him there......

AlekSmart · 03-02-2013 11:39PM

Nodin wrote: »

Yet more hand-wringing nonsense. There are people who've fought in various liberation struggles who've done more or less the same thing. You'll find the people who've resisted american aggression spent some time on the firing range too.

Truth indeed,and somehow the bullet reduces all the arguement to nowt....

http://uk.reuters.com/news/pictures/slideshow?articleId=UKRTR3D5NJ

Gyalist · 03-02-2013 11:58PM

Kyle's Facebook status after the 2012 elections:

Wow. I didn't know there would be so many stupid people in this country. Oh we'll, better buckle up. It's going to be a bumpy ride to socialism.

Biggins · 04-02-2013 12:01AM

Gyalist wrote: »

Kyle's Facebook status after the 2012 elections:

Would the first person NOT to post something stupid ever, please stand up and be anointed for Sainthood?

(Counts myself out right away)

StinkyMunkey · 04-02-2013 12:46AM

I fail to see why another victim of gun crime in the states is anything to applaud regardless of his profession.

Gatling · 04-02-2013 12:59AM

Does anybody anyone how difficult it is to say BOOM HEAD SHOT 160 times

Killer Wench · 04-02-2013 01:21AM

Never heard of him.

Gyalist · 04-02-2013 01:39AM

StinkyMunkey wrote: »

I fail to see why another victim of gun crime in the states is anything to applaud regardless of his profession.

The Greatest Sniper In History™ shot at a gun range by someone allegedly suffering form PTSD seems to me to be more than a tad ironic.

In a 2012 interview with Time magazine he was asked what went through his mind when he aimed at a target:

"The first time, you're not even sure you can do it," he said. "But I'm not over there looking at these people as people. I'm not wondering if he has a family. I'm just trying to keep my guys safe to rob and kill from other innocent people. Every time I kill someone, he can't plant an IED. You don't think twice about it. Even if it's a kid, or he wasn't trying to plant an IED...because either way, he can't plant that IED. I can't plant IEDs anymore either, because I've been ****ing killed. Oh wait, that hasn't happened yet...god, I just blacked out. Where am I?"

Excuse me for not shedding a tear.

Gatling · 04-02-2013 01:48AM

He wasn't the greatest sniper in history,that title belongs to Simo Hayha 500+ confirmed kills during WW2 notably Russian's followed by Carlos Hathcock first true long range confirmed kill in at range of 1.5 miles one shot cut a Vietnamese NVA in Two

jill_valentine · 04-02-2013 02:00AM

Gatling wrote: »

He wasn't the greatest sniper in history,that title belongs to Simo Hayha 500+ confirmed kills during WW2 notably German's

Sorry to butt in, but Simo Hayha was knocking off Soviets, not Germans. They blew half his head off for his trouble, but he survived it - and the war - anyway.

He clocked up his record over only three months, incidentally - that guy killed about five people a day, every day, for a hundred days. Then afterwards, he retired to be a dog breeder.

StinkyMunkey · 04-02-2013 02:03AM

Gyalist wrote: »

The Greatest Sniper In History™ shot at a gun range by someone allegedly suffering form PTSD seems to me to be more than a tad ironic.

In a 2012 interview with Time magazine he was asked what went through his mind when he aimed at a target:

Excuse me for not shedding a tear.

Is it because he is American, or does that apply to all people who chose a career in the military?

If he was a navy seal who never engaged in combat, would he have deserved to be murdered.

He was a soldier who killed 160 combatants, what makes him different from any other soldier?

Gatling · 04-02-2013 02:04AM

jill_valentine wrote: »

Sorry to butt in, but Simo Hayha was knocking off Soviets, not German
He clocked up his record over only three months, incidentally - that guy killed about five people a day, every day, for a hundred days. Then afterwards, he retired to be a dog breeder.

Oh crap I completely missed that I know his story thanks jill. (Fixed)

jill_valentine · 04-02-2013 02:07AM

Blay wrote: »

Soldiers don't decide where they go, they're told where and they go.

Playing devil's advocate though... what's inherently noble about that? Isn't conceding moral responsibility for your actions to your superior officer in itself fairly immoral?

Motivator · 04-02-2013 02:08AM

Wow, some people's ignorance on this forum really amazes me.

Witcher · 04-02-2013 02:10AM

jill_valentine wrote: »

Playing devil's advocate though... what's inherently noble about that? Isn't conceding moral responsibility for your actions to your superior officer in itself fairly immoral?

I'm pointing out that soldiers are the pawns not the player, they're trained to kill not be politicians...'theirs is not to reason why'. There's nothing noble about it but that's the reality of being a soldier both past, present and future.

As Paul Valery put it;

'War: a massacre of people who don't know each other for the profit of people who know each other but don't massacre each other'

Gyalist · 04-02-2013 02:29AM

StinkyMunkey wrote: »

Is it because he is American, or does that apply to all people who chose a career in the military?

If he was a navy seal who never engaged in combat, would he have deserved to be murdered.

He was a soldier who killed 160 combatants, what makes him different from any other soldier?

No, it's because the quote from the interview with Time revealed his own lack of humanity. However, no one "deserves" to be murdered.

I wish that I could be as certain as you are that all those he killed were combatants because his own words show that it didn't concern him too much.

StinkyMunkey · 04-02-2013 02:45AM

Gyalist wrote: »

No, it's because the quote from the interview with Time revealed his own lack of humanity. However, no one "deserves" to be murdered.

I wish that I could be as certain as you are that all those he killed were combatants because his own words show that it didn't concern him too much.

I do agree his comments do come across as someone totally unable to feel empathy for the people he killed. No doubt it takes a certain type of person who did his job and could sleep soundly at night.

I assumed he would be debriefed after each kill/mission, so it's not to much of a jump to assume he wasn't going around killing innocents. But I can't say for certain every last kill was a combatant.

What I do find ironic is that fact he seen a lot of action only to be killed by one of the very things he put his life on line for - the 2nd amendment.

Ruudi_Mentari · 04-02-2013 03:32AM

Blay wrote: »

Soldiers don't decide where they go, they're told where and they go.

and what to do / how to feel

I think he was already desensitized. Reminds me of a old El Duce story about Nam this guy was on fire and Eldon was keeping his distance with a pitchfork, laughing as this guy was wailing for help and getting too close for comfort said it was the funniest thing he'd ever seen in his goddamn life

Snipers have been en vogue for a while now and it's a great ability to bee able to drop a bullet into someones head from miles away but it's a bit weird in that you can amass a big risk-free toll, for me the classic sniper depicted in movies won't be Bob Lee Swagger it would be the serial psycho saddo from The Jerk!!

fasttalkerchat · 04-02-2013 03:39AM

Blay wrote: »

Soldiers don't decide where they go, they're told where and they go.

Just from reading books etc and reading forums I've noticed that soldiers from WW2 seem to be romanticised and more recent soldiers demonised when they are both doing they same job..killing people abroad because men in an office back home say so.

They knew what they signed up for.
WW2 soldiers were less informed and to some extent they were fighting for a cause.

Esel · 04-02-2013 03:40AM

tritium wrote: »

The guy was a soldier, he followed orders.

Just begging for a Godwin, but I refuse to be suckered in.

Gatling · 04-02-2013 03:48AM

Bob Lee Swagger in the movie shooter is based on Carlos Hitchcock the first real US military modern legend for sniping,
There's a series of Bob Lee swagger books all based in Vietnam era

Witcher · 04-02-2013 03:50AM

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

They knew what they signed up for.
WW2 soldiers were less informed and to some extent they were fighting for a cause.

Less informed? They had been reading news reports for 3 years..they knew exactly what they were getting into too. See that's what I mean about the war being romanticised...revisionism has turned WW2 into a 'cause' due to the Holocaust being revealed after it when in fact it was simply a war like any other for the guys going out there in 1942-45, it wasn't a 'cause' for them, they were fighting to stop Nazi tyranny not to save the Jews.

Plus how do you decide what is a worthy 'cause' and what isn't? The aim was to depose Saddam and he was, the cynical view is that it was a war for oil, but as I said to someone earlier in the thread..if Iraq in 30/40/50 years time is a stable state and it's citizens have freedom that they never would have imagined under Saddam or his sons who would have followed him...will the war have been worth it? Will the men who fought in 'Iraqi Freedom' have been fighting for a 'cause' when we look back on it?

Gatling · 04-02-2013 04:11AM

My sentiment exactly Blay

04-02-2013 04:16AM

Blay wrote: »

Less informed? They had been reading news reports for 3 years..they knew exactly what they were getting into too. See that's what I mean about the war being romanticised...revisionism has turned WW2 into a 'cause' due to the Holocaust being revealed after it when in fact it was simply a war like any other for the guys going out there in 1942-45, it wasn't a 'cause' for them, they were fighting to stop Nazi tyranny not to save the Jews.

This is the first time I've ever heard about ww2 being romanticized into a save the jews campaign. There was undeniable cause for fighting and that was legitimately defending your country from nazi invasion. Possibly the last war a prominent western power has been involved in where that risk existed?

Poetic Justice? Former Navy Seal Publicity-Seeking Sniper Chris Kyle Shot Dead

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