If you havent read ADWD please dont read Spoilers From the outset and throughout

IK09 · 31-01-2013 10:56AM #1

I was introduced to the Game of Thrones books by a Icelandic guy I meet traveling a few years ago. I became totally engrossed in them. I have just finished ADWD.

If you haven't read the latest released book, please turn away because i don't want to ruin the books for anyone.

I have been reading up on this site about different peoples theories on one matter or another, and some are well informed, others simply just haven't been thought through fully.

My question is, with all theories about Jon's parentage, what does it matter? He's dead, he was stabbed 4 times? Now i know, we were told Davos Seaworth was dead also and hes not, but we were told from someone elses story. That could have been anyone's head tarred and with an onion in its mouth.

The same for Stannis, I wont truly believe he is dead until, i read a chapter from his perspective, that ends with his head rolling away from his body.

But where Jon is concerned, we had it from his perspective. His own men turned on him. Who is going to save him? Even if hes not dead, and is just dying a slow death, who is going to treat him back to health? The red priest is one (but i cant imagine the men of the nights watch allowing her to save a man they were trying to kill). Who else would be strong enough to fight everyone off, and also have the skills to save him.

I have heard people speculating that Jon is Azor Ahai.
Mainly because of his dream on top of the wall, where he wears amour of black ice, and wields a flaming sword.

Maybe I am just gullible, but i think Jon's dead, im not sure about Stannis. I tend not to believe hes dead because of the situation with Davos.

I also find it hard to believe that GRRM would kill off my 2 remaining favourite characters in one chapter.

I was well into the second book before i accepted that Eddard Stark was actually beheaded. I was literally saying to myself "no,no you cant just kill off the main character at the start of a series......it doesnt work like that".

You cant just kill off the only two honorable men left, and the biggest badass Westeros has ever seen, in one chapter. And if they did, FML

Your thoughts please

Witcher · 31-01-2013 11:02AM

There's no way Jon is dead, his POV is invaluable to the series. Alongside Stannis he's the reason I read the series:pac:

Shazbot · 31-01-2013 12:11PM

Like many, I don't think Jon is dead. It's the typical case of 'if you don't see the dead body, he's not dead'. As Jon was collapsing he said "Ghost". Maybe he's unintentionally warging into ghost and will stay with Ghost until Melisandre heals him.

I guess it's the same for Mance and Stannis then. Maybe Ramseys letter to Jon was to lie just to pick a fight.

Another cliff hanger I can't wait for Martin to resolve is Brienne. She was about to be hung until she yelled something. Were her words ever explained?

Mickeroo · 31-01-2013 12:48PM

Stannis ain't dead, he's in the chapter from winds of winter that was in my copy of ADWD. The whole letter was a ploy by Ramsey IMO.

Really don't think Jon is dead either, GRRM loves ending in cliff hangers where a major character might die and even though he has a reputation for killing off well loved characters i can only think of Ned as a pov character who got offed.

I'm guessing Jon will be resurrected by Melisandre.

Gauge · 31-01-2013 12:51PM

Mickeroo wrote: »

I'm guessing Jon will be resurrected by Melisandre.

This is my theory as well. Possibly some warging involved too.

Also (I think?) being dead, and then resurrected, would conveniently release him from his duty in the Night's Watch.

Witcher · 31-01-2013 01:08PM

Shazbot wrote: »

She was about to be hung until she yelled something. Were her words ever explained?

GRRM said she shouted 'Sword!'

Mickeroo wrote: »

Stannis ain't dead, he's in the chapter from winds of winter that was in my copy of ADWD. The whole letter was a ploy by Ramsey IMO.

Theon I from TWoW overlaps with a bit with Dance so technically he could be dead. That chapter definitely overlaps with Dance but whether the Battle of Winterfell has taken place by the end of Dance is unclear. Stannis seems to have the battle planned out well using the ice lake etc Suggestions over on Westeros.org that the pink latter might be from Mance himself trying to trick Jon into sending his son, Val etc. south from the Wall.

ArmaniJeanss · 31-01-2013 01:10PM

Very little made sense about any of Jons last chapter in ADWD, from Jons thought processes to the reason for the mutiny (that Jon had broken his vows by suggesting the attack on Winterfell - Winterfell was going to attack the Watch so getting your attack in first is hardly a vow breaker).

Even the whole concept of the 'mutiny' was bizarre.
Hardly likely that the bean counter guy (can't remember his name) would lead a murderous mutiny - why not go to Dennys Mallister or Cotter Pyke in the other two towers (people who are roughly second in command behind Jon) and mention your concerns to them.

So I'd say Jon is alive (possibly by warging into Ghost at a key moment).

I predict it's another frankly tiresome 'oh noes hes dead...oh wait he isnt' cliffhanger which the last two books have a few too many of.

TheIrishGrover · 31-01-2013 01:28PM

Stannis: Unless you see his head on a spike, he's not dead. I can't remember but wasn't it just someone saying he was dead? Not a chance so.

As for Jon? No. I think along the lines that so many do: That he "warged" into Ghost. The whole chapter at the start of ADWD with whats-his-name-nine-skins was a setup for that. If that chapter hadn't been there (And I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't initially and was put there at the behest of the publisher) then I would have been more inclined to believe that he was dead. My thoughts are that he warged into Ghost. The closeness of Jon and Ghost means that Jon's conciseness doesn't get totally overwhelmed as Nine-skins' did. However I believe that he will have lost some of his previous identity and that that will be part of his story arc. I'd say that a good portion of the next book Jon will be in Ghost. I'm tempted to think that he will be in Ghost until Jon's final chapter in the next book.

I'd say one of the major sticking points with the last book was "How do I get Jon from The Wall?" Whether it involved going back beyond the wall, interacting with Dany or whatever, he had to leave the wall and this is a handy way. The character personality can be changed as a result of his warging to and from Ghost into another host human body and he now has no ties to The Wall.

On a side note: Does anyone think that there is going to be at LEAST another book planned? (8 as opposed to 7) I always thought that the 2nd last book would end with the characters pretty much in their places for the final confrontations. However so many characters (old and new) have still got a hell of a long way to get to their final positions: Jon, Cersie, Tyrion, Jorah, Arya, Jamie.

Mickeroo · 31-01-2013 02:15PM

Blay wrote: »

Theon I from TWoW overlaps with a bit with Dance so technically he could be dead. That chapter definitely overlaps with Dance but whether the Battle of Winterfell has taken place by the end of Dance is unclear. Stannis seems to have the battle planned out well using the ice lake etc Suggestions over on Westeros.org that the pink latter might be from Mance himself trying to trick Jon into sending his son, Val etc. south from the Wall.

Ah yeah, forgot about the overlap. I dont think the battle has taken place though, I'm pretty sure GRRM himself has said that both that battle and the one in Mereen had to be moved to WoW after originally intending to have them as the climax of ADWD (much to that books detriment imo).

TheIrishGrover wrote: »

On a side note: Does anyone think that there is going to be at LEAST another book planned? (8 as opposed to 7) I always thought that the 2nd last book would end with the characters pretty much in their places for the final confrontations. However so many characters (old and new) have still got a hell of a long way to get to their final positions: Jon, Cersie, Tyrion, Jorah, Arya, Jamie.

His wife reckons it will be three books rather than two anyway.

Witcher · 31-01-2013 03:12PM

Mickeroo wrote: »

Ah yeah, forgot about the overlap. I dont think the battle has taken place though, I'm pretty sure GRRM himself has said that both that battle and the one in Mereen had to be moved to WoW after originally intending to have them as the climax of ADWD (much to that books detriment imo).

Yeah I don't believe he's dead or the battle has taken place either..if Stannis is really dead by the end of Dance then having the battle at the start of WoW is pointless given that we would know the outcome.

Most importantly if he is dead...I give up on the series and who gets the IT..Dany, Crows Eye, Aegon, Tommen fcuk ya's all I don't care anymore:pac:

TheIrishGrover · 31-01-2013 05:40PM

Mickeroo wrote: »

His wife reckons it will be three books rather than two anyway.

Well, got another 12 years wait so.......... Like he's gonna make it!

Gbear · 01-02-2013 11:56AM

I wouldn't put it entirely past Martin to kill off a character like John. But as of the end of the book he isn't dead so far as we know.

In the case of Stannis, it could be any number of things:

Ramsey could've interrogated Mance and the spearwives.

The Manderlys and Stannis' men could've wiped out the Freys and the Manderleys are going back to Winterfell pretending that they won the battle, with "Lightbringer" and some juicy bits of gossip to lull the Boltons into a false sense of security so as to more easily infiltrate the castle.

There might be an informant to the Boltons in the watch.

It's really hard to know exactly.
Hopefully the book will be out next year some time. I think that ADWD was a bit of a mess to write. Hopefully this one will be easier.

super_furry · 01-02-2013 12:00PM

Jon will be reborn through ice in the same way his sister was reborn through fire.

Sleepy · 01-02-2013 01:07PM

Ice preserves... Fire Consumes.

TPD · 01-02-2013 01:12PM

I figured that Jon will be resurrected by Melissandre in 'fire and ice' at the wall, as said in some prophecy. He's died so has no ties to the wall any longer, and can go on to do whatever the prophecy said he would.

You might tell, I've only read through the books once and started the first one a long time ago.

WindmillWarrior · 01-02-2013 02:41PM

IK09 wrote: »

I have heard people speculating that Jon is Azor Ahai.

Doing a re-read at the minute and I was reading a Melisandre POV chapter from ADWD this morning. She was looking into her fire at the wall to find any news of Stannis (he's gone off south mob handed at this stage). She says something like I ask for news of Azor Ahai and all R'hllor shows me is Jon Snow. Come on Mel, wake up and smell the brimstone!

IK09 · 01-02-2013 04:58PM

I cant remember that line. But shes obviously quite confused about what shes seeing. She sees a grey girl on a dyin horse...that was the plague in meereen if ya ask me. She seems to be seeing whats happening for Dany more than anyone else. Or else she didnt do her homework on how to interpret what she sees. Maybe she missed that day in school

Mickeroo · 01-02-2013 05:11PM

Aemonn sussed it before he died, Melisandre is right about the prophecy but wrong about Stannis.

IK09 · 01-02-2013 05:24PM

Mickeroo wrote: »

Aemonn sussed it before he died

please explain

Mickeroo · 01-02-2013 05:31PM

IK09 wrote: »

please explain

Maester Aemonn I mean, name might be spelled wrong.

IK09 · 01-02-2013 05:33PM

Its impossible to spell, how did he sus it out though, i thought he realised that the prophecy was true, but did he say anything related to Jon Snow?

Gbear · 01-02-2013 05:33PM

IK09 wrote: »

I cant remember that line. But shes obviously quite confused about what shes seeing. She sees a grey girl on a dyin horse...that was the plague in meereen if ya ask me. She seems to be seeing whats happening for Dany more than anyone else. Or else she didnt do her homework on how to interpret what she sees. Maybe she missed that day in school

The girl dying on the horse was the Karstark girl, I think.
One of the Karstarks tried to usurp her claim so she legged it and informed Jon about the Karstark plot against Stannis. Then she married one of the Wildlings. Possibly the Magnar of Thenn.

I have a suspicion that the Azor Ahai thing is a bit of a red herring. One thing that keeps on returning in the books is the weak predicting power of prophecy or at least the inability for anyone to get the meaning. The entire arc of the Melisandre Azor Ahai thing could be about how much of the world she manages to **** up on the back of a misreading of a prophecy that has nothing to do with her.

Jon being the superhero and saving the day from the evil wights and White Walkers and the magical dragons swooping in with Jon, Dany + 1 on their backs just seems a bit clichéd.

IK09 · 01-02-2013 05:50PM

Gbear wrote: »

The girl dying on the horse was the Karstark girl, I think.
One of the Karstarks tried to usurp her claim so she legged it and informed Jon about the Karstark plot against Stannis. Then she married one of the Wildlings. Possibly the Magnar of Thenn.

Ya totally forgot about that, thank you

Gbear wrote: »

I have a suspicion that the Azor Ahai thing is a bit of a red herring. One thing that keeps on returning in the books is the weak predicting power of prophecy or at least the inability for anyone to get the meaning. The entire arc of the Melisandre Azor Ahai thing could be about how much of the world she manages to **** up on the back of a misreading of a prophecy that has nothing to do with her.

Haha that would be funny enough alright, GRRM would give her some horrible death for that.

Gbear wrote: »

Jon being the superhero and saving the day from the evil wights and White Walkers and the magical dragons swooping in with Jon, Dany + 1 on their backs just seems a bit clichéd.

I agree, but that would be far far far too much of a happy ending. Cant imagine a book as cut throat as GOT having two people (a bastard and an exiled girl) ride off into the sunset on the backs of dragons.

If Jon is a Stark/Targeryean(r+j) Hes also in for some cruel, gruesome, death. Both the Starks and Targeryeans have form the the ould extravagant deaths.

Neds father - cooked alive
Brandon - Strangled while watching his father cooked in his own armour
Ned- beheaded
Catylen - Throat cut, still alive with half a face
Robb - head cut off and head off direwolf sown on
Lyanna - 2 storys, raped to death or other

and then theres the Targaryen kids

so hes destined for a glorious death

Mickeroo · 01-02-2013 06:45PM

IK09 wrote: »

Its impossible to spell, how did he sus it out though, i thought he realised that the prophecy was true, but did he say anything related to Jon Snow?

Oh sorry no I just meant regarding Dany.

buckfast69 · 03-02-2013 10:33PM

I reckon dany has 3 dragons, they will be flown north of the wall by dany, jon snow and young aegon to defeat the white walkers.

For that to happen jon snow needs to be alive or ressurected if he is dead. If he is dead its going to be melisandre who brings him back to life, like thoros of myr did for beric dondarrion.

Gbear · 04-02-2013 12:52AM

buckfast69 wrote: »

I reckon dany has 3 dragons, they will be flown north of the wall by dany, jon snow and young aegon to defeat the white walkers.

For that to happen jon snow needs to be alive or ressurected if he is dead. If he is dead its going to be melisandre who brings him back to life, like thoros of myr did for beric dondarrion.

See aforementioned reference to clichés.

That would be really disappointing.

I wouldn't be surprised if one or all of the dragons dies before it does anything useful.

People really don't like them. The only current people who know about the white walkers are the Nights Watch and Stannis.
Unless the world at large knows there's something they need saving from they probably won't really accept the dragons as the lesser of two evils but just as the bringers of misery and wanton destruction that they are.

Witcher · 04-02-2013 01:02AM

I wouldn't be suprised if GRRM did kill off one of the dragons just to prove that even they have their limitations. Nobody is untouchable in the series..even the Others have their weaknesses.

podgemonster · 04-02-2013 01:05AM

What if Jon does have the blood of the dragon and the men of watch have stabbed him with dragonglass? He'll be grand!

Mr.Prodston · 04-02-2013 02:13AM

There's no way Jon is gone from the story. "Dead" he might be but for how long he's perceived that way is another one. It would be pretty bad-ass by GRRM if Jon was actually dead but unlike Ned his role isn't finished yet by any stretch whatever it turns out to be.

Nor do I think himself and Dany will be super happy Targs forever and ever. I was reading the proper ASOIF forums a while back and somebody suggested that Ice and Fire aren't necessarily Evil and Good but if one side wins it will be bad for everyone else. We know very little/zilch about the White Walkers actual intentions/motivations and Dragons are hardly a sign of hope and happiness. Anyway the point they made was that Jon would be the mediator between the 2 as he's both Ice and Fire if R+L is true. (Bran could potentially be the ice's Dany, but I'd need to think more on that)

As for Stannis, no way is he dead either. Manderley will make sure that doesn't happen (can't wait to see who they cast from him, absolute legend: Brian Blessed anyone?

)The Bolton's will get their comeuppance I reckon. I also think Mance himself had a lot to do with that letter. The way it was written seemed to know a lot about Jon and his actual character, Ramsey couldn't know realistically but Mance would. Even if it takes 20 years to finish the books it's better than speed writing and he doesn't quite make it. I'd take that deal now!

Delighted this thread was made too and better leave it at that for this post :pac:

IK09 · 04-02-2013 12:49PM

Mr.Prodston wrote: »

Nor do I think himself and Dany will be super happy Targs forever and ever. I was reading the proper ASOIF forums a while back and somebody suggested that Ice and Fire aren't necessarily Evil and Good but if one side wins it will be bad for everyone else. We know very little/zilch about the White Walkers actual intentions/motivations and Dragons are hardly a sign of hope and happiness.

Hahahahaha "super happy Targs forever" lmao, sounds like something from the care-bears!

Ya thats an interesting point about the white walkers. It seems to me that they dont have an real point or "agenda", they just seem like evil bstards that wanna put people "in the cold,cold ground". I wouldnt say were ever going to see a P.O.V from a white walker.

I know they have their leaders and what not, (presumed from the last episode of season 2) with the guys on horses leading them. But i cant imagine that they have much of a plan.

What do ye reckon the story is with the Iron Born, the Crows Eye seems to have a bit of a plan as to how they can carve out a piece of the seven kingdoms for himself (i wouldnt say hes getting anywhere near the throne though, that will probably be their downfall, over reaching). Anyone reckon that Victarion Greyjoy has any chance with Dany? he does seem like the type of beastly, fearless type she would go for. I would hate to see that happen. Then again GRRM doesnt seem to give a **** what i think.

Another thought, is Dany even safe where she is with Ko Jhaqo? He declared himself Khal after Drogo died. Hes got 20,000 riders with him. Cant see him having to much love for Dany. I know she has a dragon for protection, but whats she gonna do? Have Drogon eat Jhaqo and steal his riders? Is he gonna take her prsioner? I wouldnt be too surprised if Drogon just up and left her there, he doesnt seem all that well trained

Witcher · 04-02-2013 01:08PM

I like Victarion, no BS type of guy and has respect for those that fight well even if they lose. I hope he cleaves Crows Eye wide open with his axe:pac:

If you havent read ADWD please dont read **Spoilers** From the outset and throughout

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If you havent read ADWD please dont read Spoilers From the outset and throughout