If you havent read ADWD please dont read **Spoilers** From the outset and throughout

IK09

I was introduced to the Game of Thrones books by a Icelandic guy I meet traveling a few years ago. I became totally engrossed in them. I have just finished ADWD.

If you haven't read the latest released book, please turn away because i don't want to ruin the books for anyone.

I have been reading up on this site about different peoples theories on one matter or another, and some are well informed, others simply just haven't been thought through fully.

My question is, with all theories about Jon's parentage, what does it matter? He's dead, he was stabbed 4 times? Now i know, we were told Davos Seaworth was dead also and hes not, but we were told from someone elses story. That could have been anyone's head tarred and with an onion in its mouth.

The same for Stannis, I wont truly believe he is dead until, i read a chapter from his perspective, that ends with his head rolling away from his body.

But where Jon is concerned, we had it from his perspective. His own men turned on him. Who is going to save him? Even if hes not dead, and is just dying a slow death, who is going to treat him back to health? The red priest is one (but i cant imagine the men of the nights watch allowing her to save a man they were trying to kill). Who else would be strong enough to fight everyone off, and also have the skills to save him.

I have heard people speculating that Jon is Azor Ahai.
Mainly because of his dream on top of the wall, where he wears amour of black ice, and wields a flaming sword.

Maybe I am just gullible, but i think Jon's dead, im not sure about Stannis. I tend not to believe hes dead because of the situation with Davos.

I also find it hard to believe that GRRM would kill off my 2 remaining favourite characters in one chapter.

I was well into the second book before i accepted that Eddard Stark was actually beheaded. I was literally saying to myself "no,no you cant just kill off the main character at the start of a series......it doesnt work like that".

You cant just kill off the only two honorable men left, and the biggest badass Westeros has ever seen, in one chapter. And if they did, FML

Your thoughts please

Witcher

There's no way Jon is dead, his POV is invaluable to the series. Alongside Stannis he's the reason I read the series:pac:

Shazbot

Like many, I don't think Jon is dead. It's the typical case of 'if you don't see the dead body, he's not dead'. As Jon was collapsing he said "Ghost". Maybe he's unintentionally warging into ghost and will stay with Ghost until Melisandre heals him.

I guess it's the same for Mance and Stannis then. Maybe Ramseys letter to Jon was to lie just to pick a fight.

Another cliff hanger I can't wait for Martin to resolve is Brienne. She was about to be hung until she yelled something. Were her words ever explained?

Mickeroo

Stannis ain't dead, he's in the chapter from winds of winter that was in my copy of ADWD. The whole letter was a ploy by Ramsey IMO.

Really don't think Jon is dead either, GRRM loves ending in cliff hangers where a major character might die and even though he has a reputation for killing off well loved characters i can only think of Ned as a pov character who got offed.

I'm guessing Jon will be resurrected by Melisandre.

Gauge

Mickeroo wrote: »

I'm guessing Jon will be resurrected by Melisandre.

This is my theory as well. Possibly some warging involved too.

Also (I think?) being dead, and then resurrected, would conveniently release him from his duty in the Night's Watch.

Witcher

Shazbot wrote: »

She was about to be hung until she yelled something. Were her words ever explained?

GRRM said she shouted 'Sword!'

Mickeroo wrote: »

Stannis ain't dead, he's in the chapter from winds of winter that was in my copy of ADWD. The whole letter was a ploy by Ramsey IMO.

Theon I from TWoW overlaps with a bit with Dance so technically he could be dead. That chapter definitely overlaps with Dance but whether the Battle of Winterfell has taken place by the end of Dance is unclear. Stannis seems to have the battle planned out well using the ice lake etc Suggestions over on Westeros.org that the pink latter might be from Mance himself trying to trick Jon into sending his son, Val etc. south from the Wall.

ArmaniJeanss

Very little made sense about any of Jons last chapter in ADWD, from Jons thought processes to the reason for the mutiny (that Jon had broken his vows by suggesting the attack on Winterfell - Winterfell was going to attack the Watch so getting your attack in first is hardly a vow breaker).

Even the whole concept of the 'mutiny' was bizarre.
Hardly likely that the bean counter guy (can't remember his name) would lead a murderous mutiny - why not go to Dennys Mallister or Cotter Pyke in the other two towers (people who are roughly second in command behind Jon) and mention your concerns to them.

So I'd say Jon is alive (possibly by warging into Ghost at a key moment).

I predict it's another frankly tiresome 'oh noes hes dead...oh wait he isnt' cliffhanger which the last two books have a few too many of.

TheIrishGrover

Stannis: Unless you see his head on a spike, he's not dead. I can't remember but wasn't it just someone saying he was dead? Not a chance so.

As for Jon? No. I think along the lines that so many do: That he "warged" into Ghost. The whole chapter at the start of ADWD with whats-his-name-nine-skins was a setup for that. If that chapter hadn't been there (And I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't initially and was put there at the behest of the publisher) then I would have been more inclined to believe that he was dead. My thoughts are that he warged into Ghost. The closeness of Jon and Ghost means that Jon's conciseness doesn't get totally overwhelmed as Nine-skins' did. However I believe that he will have lost some of his previous identity and that that will be part of his story arc. I'd say that a good portion of the next book Jon will be in Ghost. I'm tempted to think that he will be in Ghost until Jon's final chapter in the next book.

I'd say one of the major sticking points with the last book was "How do I get Jon from The Wall?" Whether it involved going back beyond the wall, interacting with Dany or whatever, he had to leave the wall and this is a handy way. The character personality can be changed as a result of his warging to and from Ghost into another host human body and he now has no ties to The Wall.

On a side note: Does anyone think that there is going to be at LEAST another book planned? (8 as opposed to 7) I always thought that the 2nd last book would end with the characters pretty much in their places for the final confrontations. However so many characters (old and new) have still got a hell of a long way to get to their final positions: Jon, Cersie, Tyrion, Jorah, Arya, Jamie.

Mickeroo

Blay wrote: »

Theon I from TWoW overlaps with a bit with Dance so technically he could be dead. That chapter definitely overlaps with Dance but whether the Battle of Winterfell has taken place by the end of Dance is unclear. Stannis seems to have the battle planned out well using the ice lake etc Suggestions over on Westeros.org that the pink latter might be from Mance himself trying to trick Jon into sending his son, Val etc. south from the Wall.

Ah yeah, forgot about the overlap. I dont think the battle has taken place though, I'm pretty sure GRRM himself has said that both that battle and the one in Mereen had to be moved to WoW after originally intending to have them as the climax of ADWD (much to that books detriment imo).

TheIrishGrover wrote: »

On a side note: Does anyone think that there is going to be at LEAST another book planned? (8 as opposed to 7) I always thought that the 2nd last book would end with the characters pretty much in their places for the final confrontations. However so many characters (old and new) have still got a hell of a long way to get to their final positions: Jon, Cersie, Tyrion, Jorah, Arya, Jamie.

His wife reckons it will be three books rather than two anyway.

Witcher

Mickeroo wrote: »

Ah yeah, forgot about the overlap. I dont think the battle has taken place though, I'm pretty sure GRRM himself has said that both that battle and the one in Mereen had to be moved to WoW after originally intending to have them as the climax of ADWD (much to that books detriment imo).

Yeah I don't believe he's dead or the battle has taken place either..if Stannis is really dead by the end of Dance then having the battle at the start of WoW is pointless given that we would know the outcome.

Most importantly if he is dead...I give up on the series and who gets the IT..Dany, Crows Eye, Aegon, Tommen fcuk ya's all I don't care anymore:pac:

TheIrishGrover

Mickeroo wrote: »

His wife reckons it will be three books rather than two anyway.

Well, got another 12 years wait so.......... Like he's gonna make it!

Gbear

I wouldn't put it entirely past Martin to kill off a character like John. But as of the end of the book he isn't dead so far as we know.

In the case of Stannis, it could be any number of things:

Ramsey could've interrogated Mance and the spearwives.

The Manderlys and Stannis' men could've wiped out the Freys and the Manderleys are going back to Winterfell pretending that they won the battle, with "Lightbringer" and some juicy bits of gossip to lull the Boltons into a false sense of security so as to more easily infiltrate the castle.

There might be an informant to the Boltons in the watch.

It's really hard to know exactly.
Hopefully the book will be out next year some time. I think that ADWD was a bit of a mess to write. Hopefully this one will be easier.

super_furry

Jon will be reborn through ice in the same way his sister was reborn through fire.

Sleepy

Ice preserves... Fire Consumes.

TPD

I figured that Jon will be resurrected by Melissandre in 'fire and ice' at the wall, as said in some prophecy. He's died so has no ties to the wall any longer, and can go on to do whatever the prophecy said he would.

You might tell, I've only read through the books once and started the first one a long time ago.

WindmillWarrior

IK09 wrote: »

I have heard people speculating that Jon is Azor Ahai.

Doing a re-read at the minute and I was reading a Melisandre POV chapter from ADWD this morning. She was looking into her fire at the wall to find any news of Stannis (he's gone off south mob handed at this stage). She says something like I ask for news of Azor Ahai and all R'hllor shows me is Jon Snow. Come on Mel, wake up and smell the brimstone!

IK09

I cant remember that line. But shes obviously quite confused about what shes seeing. She sees a grey girl on a dyin horse...that was the plague in meereen if ya ask me. She seems to be seeing whats happening for Dany more than anyone else. Or else she didnt do her homework on how to interpret what she sees. Maybe she missed that day in school

Mickeroo

Aemonn sussed it before he died, Melisandre is right about the prophecy but wrong about Stannis.

IK09

Mickeroo wrote: »

Aemonn sussed it before he died

please explain

Mickeroo

IK09 wrote: »

please explain

Maester Aemonn I mean, name might be spelled wrong.

IK09

Its impossible to spell, how did he sus it out though, i thought he realised that the prophecy was true, but did he say anything related to Jon Snow?

Gbear

IK09 wrote: »

I cant remember that line. But shes obviously quite confused about what shes seeing. She sees a grey girl on a dyin horse...that was the plague in meereen if ya ask me. She seems to be seeing whats happening for Dany more than anyone else. Or else she didnt do her homework on how to interpret what she sees. Maybe she missed that day in school

The girl dying on the horse was the Karstark girl, I think.
One of the Karstarks tried to usurp her claim so she legged it and informed Jon about the Karstark plot against Stannis. Then she married one of the Wildlings. Possibly the Magnar of Thenn.



I have a suspicion that the Azor Ahai thing is a bit of a red herring. One thing that keeps on returning in the books is the weak predicting power of prophecy or at least the inability for anyone to get the meaning. The entire arc of the Melisandre Azor Ahai thing could be about how much of the world she manages to **** up on the back of a misreading of a prophecy that has nothing to do with her.

Jon being the superhero and saving the day from the evil wights and White Walkers and the magical dragons swooping in with Jon, Dany + 1 on their backs just seems a bit clichéd.

IK09

Gbear wrote: »

The girl dying on the horse was the Karstark girl, I think.
One of the Karstarks tried to usurp her claim so she legged it and informed Jon about the Karstark plot against Stannis. Then she married one of the Wildlings. Possibly the Magnar of Thenn.

Ya totally forgot about that, thank you

Gbear wrote: »

I have a suspicion that the Azor Ahai thing is a bit of a red herring. One thing that keeps on returning in the books is the weak predicting power of prophecy or at least the inability for anyone to get the meaning. The entire arc of the Melisandre Azor Ahai thing could be about how much of the world she manages to **** up on the back of a misreading of a prophecy that has nothing to do with her.

Haha that would be funny enough alright, GRRM would give her some horrible death for that.

Gbear wrote: »

Jon being the superhero and saving the day from the evil wights and White Walkers and the magical dragons swooping in with Jon, Dany + 1 on their backs just seems a bit clichéd.

I agree, but that would be far far far too much of a happy ending. Cant imagine a book as cut throat as GOT having two people (a bastard and an exiled girl) ride off into the sunset on the backs of dragons.

If Jon is a Stark/Targeryean(r+j) Hes also in for some cruel, gruesome, death. Both the Starks and Targeryeans have form the the ould extravagant deaths.

Neds father - cooked alive
Brandon - Strangled while watching his father cooked in his own armour
Ned- beheaded
Catylen - Throat cut, still alive with half a face
Robb - head cut off and head off direwolf sown on
Lyanna - 2 storys, raped to death or other

and then theres the Targaryen kids

so hes destined for a glorious death

Mickeroo

IK09 wrote: »

Its impossible to spell, how did he sus it out though, i thought he realised that the prophecy was true, but did he say anything related to Jon Snow?

Oh sorry no I just meant regarding Dany.

buckfast69

I reckon dany has 3 dragons, they will be flown north of the wall by dany, jon snow and young aegon to defeat the white walkers.

For that to happen jon snow needs to be alive or ressurected if he is dead. If he is dead its going to be melisandre who brings him back to life, like thoros of myr did for beric dondarrion.

Gbear

buckfast69 wrote: »

I reckon dany has 3 dragons, they will be flown north of the wall by dany, jon snow and young aegon to defeat the white walkers.

For that to happen jon snow needs to be alive or ressurected if he is dead. If he is dead its going to be melisandre who brings him back to life, like thoros of myr did for beric dondarrion.

See aforementioned reference to clichés.

That would be really disappointing.

I wouldn't be surprised if one or all of the dragons dies before it does anything useful.

People really don't like them. The only current people who know about the white walkers are the Nights Watch and Stannis.
Unless the world at large knows there's something they need saving from they probably won't really accept the dragons as the lesser of two evils but just as the bringers of misery and wanton destruction that they are.

Witcher

I wouldn't be suprised if GRRM did kill off one of the dragons just to prove that even they have their limitations. Nobody is untouchable in the series..even the Others have their weaknesses.

podgemonster

What if Jon does have the blood of the dragon and the men of watch have stabbed him with dragonglass? He'll be grand!

Mr.Prodston

There's no way Jon is gone from the story. "Dead" he might be but for how long he's perceived that way is another one. It would be pretty bad-ass by GRRM if Jon was actually dead but unlike Ned his role isn't finished yet by any stretch whatever it turns out to be.

Nor do I think himself and Dany will be super happy Targs forever and ever. I was reading the proper ASOIF forums a while back and somebody suggested that Ice and Fire aren't necessarily Evil and Good but if one side wins it will be bad for everyone else. We know very little/zilch about the White Walkers actual intentions/motivations and Dragons are hardly a sign of hope and happiness. Anyway the point they made was that Jon would be the mediator between the 2 as he's both Ice and Fire if R+L is true. (Bran could potentially be the ice's Dany, but I'd need to think more on that)

As for Stannis, no way is he dead either. Manderley will make sure that doesn't happen (can't wait to see who they cast from him, absolute legend: Brian Blessed anyone? )The Bolton's will get their comeuppance I reckon. I also think Mance himself had a lot to do with that letter. The way it was written seemed to know a lot about Jon and his actual character, Ramsey couldn't know realistically but Mance would. Even if it takes 20 years to finish the books it's better than speed writing and he doesn't quite make it. I'd take that deal now!

Delighted this thread was made too and better leave it at that for this post :pac:

IK09

Mr.Prodston wrote: »

Nor do I think himself and Dany will be super happy Targs forever and ever. I was reading the proper ASOIF forums a while back and somebody suggested that Ice and Fire aren't necessarily Evil and Good but if one side wins it will be bad for everyone else. We know very little/zilch about the White Walkers actual intentions/motivations and Dragons are hardly a sign of hope and happiness.

Hahahahaha "super happy Targs forever" lmao, sounds like something from the care-bears!

Ya thats an interesting point about the white walkers. It seems to me that they dont have an real point or "agenda", they just seem like evil bstards that wanna put people "in the cold,cold ground". I wouldnt say were ever going to see a P.O.V from a white walker.

I know they have their leaders and what not, (presumed from the last episode of season 2) with the guys on horses leading them. But i cant imagine that they have much of a plan.

What do ye reckon the story is with the Iron Born, the Crows Eye seems to have a bit of a plan as to how they can carve out a piece of the seven kingdoms for himself (i wouldnt say hes getting anywhere near the throne though, that will probably be their downfall, over reaching). Anyone reckon that Victarion Greyjoy has any chance with Dany? he does seem like the type of beastly, fearless type she would go for. I would hate to see that happen. Then again GRRM doesnt seem to give a **** what i think.

Another thought, is Dany even safe where she is with Ko Jhaqo? He declared himself Khal after Drogo died. Hes got 20,000 riders with him. Cant see him having to much love for Dany. I know she has a dragon for protection, but whats she gonna do? Have Drogon eat Jhaqo and steal his riders? Is he gonna take her prsioner? I wouldnt be too surprised if Drogon just up and left her there, he doesnt seem all that well trained

Witcher

I like Victarion, no BS type of guy and has respect for those that fight well even if they lose. I hope he cleaves Crows Eye wide open with his axe:pac:

GerB40

IK09 wrote: »

Hahahahaha "super happy Targs forever" lmao, sounds like something from the care-bears!

Ya thats an interesting point about the white walkers. It seems to me that they dont have an real point or "agenda", they just seem like evil bstards that wanna put people "in the cold,cold ground". I wouldnt say were ever going to see a P.O.V from a white walker.

I know they have their leaders and what not, (presumed from the last episode of season 2) with the guys on horses leading them. But i cant imagine that they have much of a plan.

What do ye reckon the story is with the Iron Born, the Crows Eye seems to have a bit of a plan as to how they can carve out a piece of the seven kingdoms for himself (i wouldnt say hes getting anywhere near the throne though, that will probably be their downfall, over reaching). Anyone reckon that Victarion Greyjoy has any chance with Dany? he does seem like the type of beastly, fearless type she would go for. I would hate to see that happen. Then again GRRM doesnt seem to give a **** what i think.

Another thought, is Dany even safe where she is with Ko Jhaqo? He declared himself Khal after Drogo died. Hes got 20,000 riders with him. Cant see him having to much love for Dany. I know she has a dragon for protection, but whats she gonna do? Have Drogon eat Jhaqo and steal his riders? Is he gonna take her prsioner? I wouldnt be too surprised if Drogon just up and left her there, he doesnt seem all that well trained

Well first of all the white walker on the horse wasn't a leader in the proper sense, he was the only white walker there. The rest (like the fella that resurrected attacked Jon) were wights. They're people who die beyond the wall and are brotought back by the WW to do their evil bidding. Regarding the Iron Born, they're pretty tough on sea but on land they're total pússies. And about Dany and her current predicament, remember Drogo's khalasar goin mad over Dany's child that'll be "the stallion that mounts the world?." How impressed do ya think they'll be when they see drogon??

Mr.Prodston

IK09 wrote: »

What do ye reckon the story is with the Iron Born, the Crows Eye seems to have a bit of a plan as to how they can carve out a piece of the seven kingdoms for himself (i wouldnt say hes getting anywhere near the throne though, that will probably be their downfall, over reaching). Anyone reckon that Victarion Greyjoy has any chance with Dany? he does seem like the type of beastly, fearless type she would go for. I would hate to see that happen. Then again GRRM doesnt seem to give a **** what i think.

Another thought, is Dany even safe where she is with Ko Jhaqo? He declared himself Khal after Drogo died. Hes got 20,000 riders with him. Cant see him having to much love for Dany. I know she has a dragon for protection, but whats she gonna do? Have Drogon eat Jhaqo and steal his riders? Is he gonna take her prsioner? I wouldnt be too surprised if Drogon just up and left her there, he doesnt seem all that well trained

I reckon the fate of the Greyjoys lies on what exactly that horn does. If it does tame a dragon then it will be vital. Although if whoever blows it dies then that's a completely separate kettle of fish (excuse the pun :pac: )

Euron does seem to be a crafty chap and wouldn't discount him from doing something but overall will be a minor shenanigan. I'd be surprised if Victarion and Dany got together too but like I said that horn should prove vital to any alliance they may form. Surely it'll be Jorah who Dany'll choose.

I'll be honest I don't give a hoot about Meereen's trouble and hope that GRRM's knot will be sorted fairly lively, although I agree that it looks like 3 more books atleast will be needed. Unless they're monster books spilt into 3 parts each or something :eek:

Going back to Euron and the horn but wouldn't it be hilarious if the horn worked and he managed to bind/control the dragons which would leave Dany in quite a predicament

Mickeroo

I'm pretty sure Euron's horn is The Horn of Joramun, the one everyone thought Mance had?

Mr.Prodston

IK09 wrote: »

Ya thats an interesting point about the white walkers. It seems to me that they dont have an real point or "agenda", they just seem like evil bstards that wanna put people "in the cold,cold ground". I wouldnt say were ever going to see a P.O.V from a white walker.

I know they have their leaders and what not, (presumed from the last episode of season 2) with the guys on horses leading them. But i cant imagine that they have much of a plan.

GerB40 wrote: »

Well first of all the white walker on the horse wasn't a leader in the proper sense, he was the only white walker there. The rest (like the fella that resurrected attacked Jon) were wights. They're people who die beyond the wall and are brotought back by the WW to do their evil bidding.

I'm going to remain open minded about what lies beyond the wall, I'd assume we'll see something in "The Winds of Winter" about them, whether that's a POV who knows. If they are marching to take over/kill then they're no different from Lannisters, Boltons, Targaryens and Greyjoys tbh. We just don't know.

If this series has hinted at anything it's that nothing is as it seems and I'm going to apply that logic to this for now.

Mr.Prodston

Mickeroo wrote: »

I'm pretty sure Euron's horn is The Horn of Joramun, the one everyone thought Mance had?

There are two horns: The horn of Joramun and the one that binds Dragons. Sam has one horn and Euron gave Victarion the other.

I really don't know who has which or whether one is a red-herring. Sam's horn was the horn that Jon found with all the obsidian, so applying logic that should be the horn of Joramun. Victarion's horn therefore should be the other horn.

Having said all that there has to be a wildcard thrown in? I also need to re-read AFFC and ADWD as details are getting sketchy.

podgemonster

Mr.Prodston wrote: »

There are two horns: The horn of Joramun and the one that binds Dragons. Sam has one horn and Euron gave Victarion the other.

I really don't know who has which or whether one is a red-herring. Sam's horn was the horn that Jon found with all the obsidian, so applying logic that should be the horn of Joramun. Victarion's horn therefore should be the other horn.

Having said all that there has to be a wildcard thrown in? I also need to re-read AFFC and ADWD as details are getting sketchy.

Same here, i really rushed through those books and alot of the tiny details were scanned over without registering!

IK09

The worst things i can imagine happening are all things that possibly could happen (in my opinion)

1. Jon Snow is dead
2. Stannis is dead
3. Dany gets captured (Jhaqo)
4. The Greyjoys succeed in any way (i just hate them so much)
5. Jamie Lannister gets hung by Stoneheart (Lannister he may be but hes a hero)
6. Arya doesnt come back to Westeros AS A STARK, and kicks some muthaf*ckin *ss.
7. Aegon dies and is just a nobody (seems like he'd make an unreal king)
8. We dont get the full story on Jons mother AND father.
9. Jorah Mormount doesnt get back in with Dany or go to the wall (i like Jorah)
10. We never see Jhaqen Hagar again(a man must come back)

Sleepy

podgemonster wrote: »

Same here, i really rushed through those books and alot of the tiny details were scanned over without registering!

The level of depth in the last two books is phenomenal. I'd recommend the "sequential" reading of them, jumping from one book to the other in the right chapter order.

There's so much going on that's easy miss in those books!

Mickeroo

IK09 wrote: »

The worst things i can imagine happening are all things that possibly could happen (in my opinion)

1. Jon Snow is dead
2. Stannis is dead
3. Dany gets captured (Jhaqo)
4. The Greyjoys succeed in any way (i just hate them so much)
5. Jamie Lannister gets hung by Stoneheart (Lannister he may be but hes a hero)
6. Arya doesnt come back to Westeros AS A STARK, and kicks some muthaf*ckin *ss.
7. Aegon dies and is just a nobody (seems like he'd make an unreal king)
8. We dont get the full story on Jons mother AND father.
9. Jorah Mormount doesnt get back in with Dany or go to the wall (i like Jorah)
10. We never see Jhaqen Hagar again(a man must come back)

I know people think it might be cliched if characters end up having happy endings and prophecies get fulfilled and such, but imho the series has had so little positive pay off in the first five books that I feel they've actually become slightly predictable and a little unsatisfying if I'm honest. I think the characters in these books have actually earned a relatively postiive conclusion to their tales when you consider the easy ride you see characters get in some other fantasy series (LOTR I'm looking at you).

Gbear

Mickeroo wrote: »

I know people think it might be cliched if characters end up having happy endings and prophecies get fulfilled and such, but imho the series has had so little positive pay off in the first five books that I feel they've actually become slightly predictable and a little unsatisfying if I'm honest. I think the characters in these books have actually earned a relatively postiive conclusion to their tales when you consider the easy ride you see characters get in some other fantasy series (LOTR I'm looking at you).

History doesn't have "happy endings" per se. Large chunks of history are pretty miserable. If whatever outcome makes sense within the context of the books I suppose I'll be happy, but we've seen so far in this series that people who are broadly speaking virtuous handicap themselves by acting like that and usually die.

If you look at WW2, the "good guys" won, but Europe was totally destroyed and 40m people or so lost their lives. A Pyrrhic victory is probably the best we can hope for.

IK09

I agree with both of ye, it would be crap to see the "happy targs" situation, yet it wouldn't live up to (my) expectations if everyone died as well. yet there is no happy balance, everyone cant live, everyone cant die.

one thing i wouldn't say is the they are predictable or unsatisfying...i nearly broke my tv after i finished the last book, but only because i couldn't just pick up the next book and keep reading.

As i said earlier, they are the things that would piss me off if they happened, that said i expect at least 2 of them to happen (in the next book)

Another question, Melisandre's visions...if she sees something, clearly,(with out doubt) does it happen, because in the last episode of the second series, she looks into the fire with Stannis and shows him, himself sitting on the iron throne.

Mr Freeze

Melisandre's visions were really annoying me in the books I must say. She is supposed to be one of the best Priests in her order, yet she couldn't tell you the time of day if it was shown to her in a vision, she reads them wrong constantly.

Moqorro seems to be 100% in his interpretation of his visions.

Anyways, Jon, I don't believe he is dead, and there are plenty of warg/resurrection theories going around, but I hope what happened is as follows:

I think he didn't feel the 4th knife because there wasn't one. I hope that Tormund & The Wildings broke up the attack and saved Jon, and they can slaughter The Watch too for all I care, as they have become nothing but a bunch of miserable complaining oul gits (imho).

The Watch did nowt but p*ss and moan in ADWD, so if The Wildings gutted the lot of them, great. Expect those sympathetic to Jon of course.

Regarding Ramsay's Letter, I think he made up the most of it from torturing the spear wives. I hope Mance is alive anyways, he really grew on me.

I definitely think we will see a lot more of Stannis in the next book, I don't think the impending battle with Ramsay's men will be his end.

TheIrishGrover

Happy Endings? Have ye even READ the rest of the books?

The closest thing ASoIaF will come to a "Happy Ending" is in Litlefinger's whorehouse.

Having said that, I do think Dany will have to have some confrontation with the walkers. Probably the whole of the last book. Aint called A Song of Ice And Fire for nuthin'

I just don't think it'll be Dany, Jon (V2) and Tyrion flying over The Wall on three dragons.

And, yeah, as someone said before, I believe at least one dragon will die beofre the last book (Probably the next book).

I think Littlefinger and Varys have about a 5% chance of surviving the books...... But everyone else is brown-bread

conorhal

Hmmm.. some interesting theories in this thread so I might as well toss in my tuppence worth.

When it comes to dragons, they will be ridden by Danny (Fire) and Bran (ice), it is known... The three eyed crow did tell Bran that while he would never walk again he would fly. Yes he has warged a few crows, but I suspect his warg skills could be used very effectively on a dragon, as only a very powerful warg, somebody with a dragon horn or at the very least somebody with a copy of 'How to Train your Dragon' on DVD would have any chance of controlling such a beastie. Sooner of later both Danny and Bran have to make for the wall and meet.

I reckon that with his horn, Eureon may well get his hands on a dragon, leading to a ...DRAGON V. DRAGON BATTLE! Awsome! This could lead to the dispatch of one of the dragons, but I suspect Eureon's defeat will ultimately free up a seat, IMHO, I'd actually like to see Sansa fill it, she lost her wolf, it’s only fair she gets a dragon in return. How though? Well Littlefinger does love having at least one finger in every pie so I suspect he’ll want in on a bit of dragon action, perhaps dispatching his new protégé Sansa to spy on Danny for him acting as a new handmaid for her perhaps? I’ve grown to like Sansa character and I’d say that she could learn to deploy her newly found street smarts to ingratiate herself with Danny and double-cross Littlefinger. Who knows how this might pan out, perhaps the stories ending will involve involve Sansa and Danny ruling together as the power lesbian couple in Westeros, with all Danny's adopted 'children' in tow natch...

Jon's not dead, he’s just resting his eyes! GRRM has pulled the whole shock ending \ mid sentence killing only to reveal that all was not as it seemed so many times at this stage that as far as I’m concerned, unless somebody’s head rolls off their shoulders in their own damn POV chapter, then I consider them alive. No doubt Milesandre will prove useful in restoring moany hole Jon boy to rude health.

As for Mili, her visions clearly point to Danny as her misread champion as far as I’m concerned. Whenever she looks for Stannis she seems to see Mereen, it’s towers by the sea are clearly described in her vision and the girl on a dying horse, I read as the plague coming to that city. More interesting is her vision of the enemy (if that’s what he is), the boy with a wolf’s head. Could that be Bran, or even Rickon (where is he BTW)? Perhaps Bran will become that bad guy. He's hanging out with the wrong crowd north of the wall these days. I don't trust those hippie ass 'Children of the Forest' pricks for one second, they're trying to seduce Bran to 'the dark side'. I mean what are the odds they are actually pulling the White Walkers strings? After all, how much love are the Children of the Forest likely to harbor for the kingdom of men and why would they do anything to help humans?
Plus Bran would make for a good villan IMO, icy, twisted and in control of a dragon, acting as an agent of the Children and the White Walkers. Rise Darth Bran I say!

I can see why ‘ol George is struggling with the writing of the series, he’s set up so many threads with too many characters (many we couldn’t give a toss about, Dorne can go fvck itself) that weaving them back into a coherent story is a tough call. I’m willing to bet we’ll see 4 more novels from him, probably cheated as calling them parts one and two to the remaining novels.
I do wonder, for example, how Arya will be reintegrated into the story, will she take her stealthy mew ninja skills on a kick ass 'revenge-sploitation tour of Westeros'? I’d like to see her hook up with Tyrion for this and together they could become the new Jules and Vincent of ‘Pulp Westeros’, quoting from the Seven Pointed Star and shooting up the place (with crossbows naturally). I'd certiantly love to see her unleash hell on the Boltons and those weasel fvks the Freys, she could even hook up with 'un-dead mom' for that gig.

podgemonster

conorhal wrote: »

Hmmm.. some interesting theories in this thread so I might as well toss in my tuppence worth.

Sansa and Danny lezzing off and Bran going Evil are pretty good exciting theories but i unfortunately I doubt it will happen. The rest of what you said could happen and there will definetly be a dragon vs. dragon incident.

Bran has a clear and gentle soul, i think he will ride a dragon but in the name of good (i.e against White walkers, boltons, freys, lannisters)

Rickon I think is on that small rocky island that looks like Skellig rock! White Harbour knights are en route to recover him and install him as Lord of Winterfell

conorhal

podgemonster wrote: »

Sansa and Danny lezzing off and Bran going Evil are pretty good exciting theories but i unfortunately I doubt it will happen. The rest of what you said could happen and there will definetly be a dragon vs. dragon incident.

Bran has a clear and gentle soul, i think he will ride a dragon but in the name of good (i.e against White walkers, boltons, freys, lannisters)

Rickon I think is on that small rocky island that looks like Skellig rock! White Harbour knights are en route to recover him and install him as Lord of Winterfell

Well Sansa and Danny lezzing off was idle musing , as for Bran turning evil, yeah it's wild speculation on my part, but, it's possible he is the wolf headed boy in Milesandre's vision of her 'enemy north of the wall', of course being Milesandre's enemy doesn't automatically make him a bad guy, far from it, but it could make him a servant of winter in some manner.

Bran may have a gentle soul, but you have to fear for that soul given how much time it spends as either a wolf or a tree lately, and you have to wonder how he might be effected by becoming a green-seer, perhaps his humanity could slowly ebb away the less time he actually spends as a human being or concerned with human things..... anyhow, it's just a thought.

Mr.Prodston

conorhal wrote: »

Well Sansa and Danny lezzing off was idle musing , as for Bran turning evil, yeah it's wild speculation on my part, but, it's possible he is the wolf headed boy in Milesandre's vision of her 'enemy north of the wall', of course being Milesandre's enemy doesn't automatically make him a bad guy, far from it, but it could make him a servant of winter in some manner.

Bran may have a gentle soul, but you have to fear for that soul given how much time it spends as either a wolf or a tree lately, and you have to wonder how he might be effected by becoming a green-seer, perhaps his humanity could slowly ebb away the less time he actually spends as a human being or concerned with human things..... anyhow, it's just a thought.

As regards to Sansa + Dany a man can dream until George makes it so

I agree with the Bran theory up to the point where he is "Evil". Bran will never be evil but this stems into my thinking that the White Walkers/Others aren't necessarily evil either or no more evil than other factions. The North is Ice/Winter/Stark none of those terms are considered evil are they? That is where these "things" beyond the wall come from though.

Then consider the South is Fire/Summer/Targaryen these again are not considered evil bar perhaps "the Mad King" and select individuals which works both ways. However if you think of Dragons they're hardly anything but extremely dangerous. Taking them on their own should surely spell evil/pure destruction yet this isn't really the case. To many Dragons are the great hope of ridding the evil but surely it only creates more.

As we have an insight into the dragon side of the story people tend to side with them. If Dany had died instead of Viserys and say he got his army and dragons (an absolute stretch I know as the dragons probably wouldn't be in play) then how keen would we be to see the dragons?

The one true evil is probably Ramsey Bolton and perhaps the Frey's but they're really just ****s.

The only way Westeros and beyond can really have a happy ending is if both sides lose and everything goes back to the not so magical stage of before the book series started.

It's tailor-made for Stannis to rule forever and ever :pac:

jeffacakeblake

I wonder about Bran cause hes so young and impressionable, maybe he could go bad. I seem to remember some scenes where he hadn't seen the Reeds much and Meera was sick or frightened of him, now I could be wrong but wasn't it implied that he had been eating eyes or some such. So my point is that he may end up bad without really being aware.

Mickeroo

jeffacakeblake wrote: »

I wonder about Bran cause hes so young and impressionable, maybe he could go bad. I seem to remember some scenes where he hadn't seen the Reeds much and Meera was sick or frightened of him, now I could be wrong but wasn't it implied that he had been eating eyes or some such. So my point is that he may end up bad without really being aware.

THere's also the fact that he uses his warg abilities on Hodor.

I'm still not sure he'll go bad though, I'm leaning more towards the white walkers won't be defeated unless ice & fire come together to do it ie Targs & Starks together.

jeffacakeblake

Mickeroo wrote: »

THere's also the fact that he uses his warg abilities on Hodor.

I'm still not sure he'll go bad though, I'm leaning more towards the white walkers won't be defeated unless ice & fire come together to do it ie Targs & Starks together.

Neither am I really but I think that GRRM writes people who are bad but don't see themselves that way is all. Saying that though who knows what he has planned I seem to change my mind every other month on what will/won't happen to characters