Rape in Cork

Boombastic · 30-01-2013 05:17PM

suicide_circus wrote: »

...................
Also, how can you be simultaneously be convicted of rape and attempted rape?

The three men, aged 19, 19 and 21, have all pleaded not guilty at the Central Criminal Court to three charges each, namely the oral rape, attempted rape, and sexual assault of a woman at an unknown location in Cork on Sept 13, 2009.

One of the men has pleaded guilty to stealing the woman's car from outside her home on the night.

Charges of vaginal rape against all three accused were dropped earlier in the trial because of the complainant’s evidence

Leftist · 30-01-2013 05:20PM

CruelCoin wrote: »

Why would i bet on something as sordid as this?

About as bad as betting on cockfighting.

Also, will you be posting a thread like this for every reported rape?

what an ridiculous reaction. I don't think OP was literally taking bets.

The post seems to be a remark on the jackpot lenient sentences rapists recieve in ireland.

Potential-Monke · 30-01-2013 05:29PM

suicide_circus wrote: »

Also, how can you be simultaneously be convicted of rape and attempted rape?

Each individual act would count as another attempt/act. Each type of act is also different, ie: oral, vaginal, anal. Without sounding crass, they may not have managed one of the 3, and that would be attempted.

Sexual Assault then covers everything but penetration (attempted or executed) orally, anally or vaginally. This would cover fondling, touching, licking, biting, etc.

Finally, digital insertion is also a seperate offence.

As for the possible sentence, i'd imagine due to their age, and co-operation (that is, admitting), it will be a reduced sentence, but they will serve time. Length or which, i have no clue, that's all up to the Judge, and they are notorious for going one way or the other...

jmayo · 30-01-2013 05:31PM

It emerged that they have a total of 39 previous convictions between them for burglary, theft, drunk and disorderly and threatening behaviour. But neither has served any time in prison.

Now does anyone wonder if the three strikes rule in the US would have prevented such an attack.

Yeah lets hear it for our revolving door justice system where eventually after one does something bad enough they get some jail time, for a little while at least so long as they aren't sick. :rolleyes:

Bipolar Joe · 30-01-2013 05:32PM

CruelCoin wrote: »

Why would i bet on something as sordid as this?

About as bad as betting on cockfighting.

Also, will you be posting a thread like this for every reported rape?

It's posts like these that make me wish that, alongside the "Thanks" button, we had a "Don't be such a fucking moron" button.

ChippingSodbury · 30-01-2013 05:45PM

Bipolar Joe wrote: »

It's posts like these that make me wish that, alongside the "Thanks" button, we had a "Don't be such a fucking moron" button.

Nice one!!!

twinQuins · 30-01-2013 06:08PM

jmayo wrote: »

Now does anyone wonder if the three strikes rule in the US would have prevented such an attack. [...]

The same US that has a higher crime rate than us? Yeah, that's really working out well for them...

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 30-01-2013 07:56PM

jmayo wrote: »

Now does anyone wonder if the three strikes rule in the US would have prevented such an attack.

Yeah lets hear it for our revolving door justice system where eventually after one does something bad enough they get some jail time, for a little while at least so long as they aren't sick. :rolleyes:

So.... you want jails full of people who have been convicted three times of minor cirmes to the point that there's no space for rapists...??

CruelCoin · 31-01-2013 10:10AM

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

So.... you want jails full of people who have been convicted three times of minor cirmes to the point that there's no space for rapists...??

It might help to break the cycle whereby:

Judge: "Off to jail with you"
Convict: "I'll never do it again"
Early Release
Rapes again
Judge: "Off to jail with you" again..
Convict: "I'll never do it again"
Early Release
Rapes again
Judge: "Off to jail with you" again......
Convict: "I'll never do it again"
Early Release
Rapes again

Repeat ad infinitum.

And before anyone comes in with it, no, i don't think they are redeemable.

Madam_X · 31-01-2013 10:37AM

HTML5! wrote: »

Ah they're probably dealing with some deep-seated personal problems from their upbringing, the poor lambs.

150hrs community service. Let's try and rehabilitate these guys! :rolleyes:

When has anyone ever said that about people who commit a crime like this?

They haven't. It's a myth from the depths of the "Political correctness gone mad!" files.

Odysseus · 31-01-2013 10:43AM

CruelCoin wrote: »

It might help to break the cycle whereby:

Judge: "Off to jail with you"
Convict: "I'll never do it again"
Early Release
Rapes again
Judge: "Off to jail with you" again..
Convict: "I'll never do it again"
Early Release
Rapes again
Judge: "Off to jail with you" again......
Convict: "I'll never do it again"
Early Release
Rapes again

Repeat ad infinitum.

And before anyone comes in with it, no, i don't think they are redeemable.

Are there are individuals currently within the Irish prison system who have being convicted released early and repeated ad infinitum?

biko · 31-01-2013 10:50AM

It emerged that they have a total of 39 previous convictions between them for burglary, theft, drunk and disorderly and threatening behaviour. But neither has served any time in prison.

Clearly a case of "wow, we can do what we like without consequences"...

jmayo · 31-01-2013 11:18AM

twinQuins wrote: »

The same US that has a higher crime rate than us? Yeah, that's really working out well for them...

And our system is working ?
Or maybe you fail to notice the number of crimes being reported where the offender is actually on bail, remand, or has been in and out of jail numerous times ?

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

So.... you want jails full of people who have been convicted three times of minor cirmes to the point that there's no space for rapists...??

No I want something along the lines of the Singapore system where if you are caught doing minor crimes and anti social behaviour you can end up getting your ars* whipped.
And a lot of these guys start with anti-social behaviour at an early stage.

Of course you and your cronies (I see one of them already thanked your post) will make excuses for them at an early stage dragging in their upbringing, their home, the fact the state and everyone else did not bend over backwards enough for them. :rolleyes:

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 31-01-2013 11:29AM

CruelCoin wrote: »

It might help to break the cycle whereby:

Judge: "Off to jail with you"
Convict: "I'll never do it again"
Early Release
Rapes again
Judge: "Off to jail with you" again..
Convict: "I'll never do it again"
Early Release
Rapes again
Judge: "Off to jail with you" again......
Convict: "I'll never do it again"
Early Release
Rapes again

Repeat ad infinitum.

And before anyone comes in with it, no, i don't think they are redeemable.

The three strikes rule was implemented for petty criminals, not rapists. If you disagree, show me the cases where serial rapists repeatedly get short jail sentences.

jmayo wrote: »

And our system is working ?
Or maybe you fail to notice the number of crimes being reported where the offender is actually on bail, remand, or has been in and out of jail numerous times ?

Nice of you to put words in my mouth. No, I never said this. But if we're going to replace our system, which is not working with someone else's system, which is also not working, what is it going to achieve?

Of course you and your cronies (I see one of them already thanked your post) will make excuses for them at an early stage dragging in their upbringing, their home, the fact the state and everyone else did not bend over backwards enough for them. :rolleyes:

Oh, will we now? As someone said, this is myth from the depths of the "Political correctness gone mad!" files. If it's not, perhaps you should actually read the reponces you refer to realise than no one actual ever says that: you just want to think that we do because you can't debate the actual argument we present.

jmayo · 31-01-2013 11:40AM

Odysseus wrote: »

Are there are individuals currently within the Irish prison system who have being convicted released early and repeated ad infinitum?

Well lets list a few of the more famous ones shall we ?
Note I am also including one who was given bail rather than early release.

Gerard Barry of Galway had been part of a gang that killed 26-year-old Colm Phelan in a Eyre Sq, he had served time, he was allowed on bail after beating up his girlfriend, even though he was suspect in the savage rape of a French girl.
Then he went on to savegly rape and murder Manuela Riedo.

What about the 28 year old German girl Bettina Poeschel killed in Louth/Meath by second time murderer, michael murphy, who had been released after a 9 years of a 12 year sentence for viciously killing a 64 year old widow Mrs Catherine Carroll ?

What about thomas murray in Galway who killed a retired teacher, Mrs Nancy Nolan, whilst on day release from Castlerea prison where he was serving a sentence for the vicous murder of an elderly neighbour William Mannion ?
Whilst he had been on a work release program in Galway he had been found to have been engaged in appropriate behaviour near children yet he was still allowed out on day release.
BTW he stabbed and bludgeoned his victims to death and by most appraisals he is psychotic and will kill again.

BTW I also await the day when some unfortunate is the latest victim of larry murphy.

I have named the victims here since all we ever seem to hear is the names of their killers who so often the ones whose civil and human rights seem to matter to some.

Now if the system can get it wrong with these very dangerous killers, even psychopaths, then imagine how many earlt releases and wrong they get it with run of the mill theives, muggers, those guilty of assualts and gbh, etc.

Now aren't you glad you asked the above question.
Lets hear the excuses and then perhaps you will have the balls to go tell them to the families of the victims like the Reidos or the Nolans.

Madam_X · 31-01-2013 11:57AM

Excuses? What sane person would make excuses for those crimes? Oh yeh, nobody.

minidazzler · 31-01-2013 12:01PM

Madam_X wrote: »

Excuses? What sane person would make excuses for those crimes? Oh yeh, nobody.

Technically his family are probably somewhat sane, and they will make excuses (probably involving calling the ladies morals into question) because their darling sons wouldn't do such a thing. Apparently when they were in court they screamed about blaming it on the kid who got off saying he did all of it.

jmayo · 31-01-2013 12:02PM

Madam_X wrote: »

Excuses? What sane person would make excuses for those crimes? Oh yeh, nobody.

No they don't make excuses for the crimes, but they will damm well make excuses why they should not be locked up for very sizeable sentences if not forever and they will come out with the mantra about how everyone deserves rehabiliation and a second chance.
All of the ones I mentioned above got a second chance and all they did was use to take another inocent life.
Some people deserve a second chance, some do not.
If someone savagely kills another then that should be it.
All of the ones I mentioned had done that.

Madam_X · 31-01-2013 12:06PM

Doubt it. I'd bet most people (even the mythical pc brigade) would just want these lowlives locked up for a long time, end of. It's only imagined that they want the system to go soft on them. Ok they disagree with torture but that doesn't make them too soft, just not bloodthirsty.

Some criminals can be rehabilitated but some are too far gone. Nobody's saying it's one size fits all.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 31-01-2013 12:09PM

jmayo wrote: »

No they don't make excuses for the crimes, but they will damm well make excuses why they should not be locked up for very sizeable sentences if not forever and they will come out with the mantra about how everyone deserves rehabiliation and a second chance.
All of the ones I mentioned above got a second chance and all they did was use to take another inocent life.
Some people deserve a second chance, some do not.
If someone savagely kills another then that should be it.
All of the ones I mentioned had done that.

You're getting closer, but you still haven't understood the point correctly.

In the cases you argue, I'd agree with you, but you still haven't asnwered the question:

Who, outside of the criminals families', is either making excuses or claiming theyshould be given leniant sentences because of factors like "upbrining"? You claimed me and I want to know what you're basing this on.

Death and Taxes · 31-01-2013 12:10PM

jmayo wrote: »

No they don't make excuses for the crimes, but they will damm well make excuses why they should not be locked up for very sizeable sentences if not forever and they will come out with the mantra about how everyone deserves rehabiliation and a second chance.
All of the ones I mentioned above got a second chance and all they did was use to take another inocent life.
Some people deserve a second chance, some do not.
If someone savagely kills another then that should be it.
All of the ones I mentioned had done that.

Two of thse mentioned were found guilty of manslaughter before going on to commit murder.
Are you suggesting that everyone who commits manslaughter be locked up forever?
My own view is that we should have a sentence of "Indefinite imprisonment" for certain offences or repeat offenders, whereby the perpetrator is indefinitley incarcerated until they can show that they have taken sufficent steps through engaging with the system to warrant consideration for release at some point and under specified conditions.

Odysseus · 31-01-2013 12:18PM

jmayo wrote: »

Well lets list a few of the more famous ones shall we ?

Now aren't you glad you asked the above question.
Lets hear the excuses and then perhaps you will have the balls to go tell them to the families of the victims like the Reidos or the Nolans.

Hang on I asked a question, don't start jumping up and down, thinking that you know how I will respond.

I don't excuse sexual offenses, now I might try to understand such behaviour, but guess what I'm paid to do that as well as work with those who have been victims of such hoffific behaviour.

So calm down a tad and wait til I have the time to respond appropriately; before you start judging my posts. I never reget asking questions it how I add to my knowlegde.

Show Time · 31-01-2013 12:23PM

Judge Carney has his hands full this week as he is also handing out a sentencing on a chap by the name of Lovemore Dube a Zimbabwean national who brutally raped a woman in Cork last year.

eviltwin · 31-01-2013 12:24PM

I work with victims of crime. I try and understand the mentality of the perps, I will often ask about their family, upbringing etc in order to try and understand more about them and what brought them to a place where they can act in such a manner to another person. Its not making excuses, its trying to find reasons so as to change things in the future.

In fairness to Jmayo I have heard family members say things like "god love them is it any wonder they turned to crime" about certain criminals, I think for some people they need a reason, maybe its a security blanket of sorts. Maybe it makes some people feel better about the human race if they can believe that people only do bad things because they themselves were treated badly or something like that.

jmayo · 31-01-2013 12:28PM

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

The three strikes rule was implemented for petty criminals, not rapists. If you disagree, show me the cases where serial rapists repeatedly get short jail sentences.

The three strikes rule is not for petty criminals although the last offence can be as petty as stelaing a can of coke.

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Nice of you to put words in my mouth. No, I never said this. But if we're going to replace our system, which is not working with someone else's system, which is also not working, what is it going to achieve?

Just because I don't want our current system does not mean I want the US system.

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Oh, will we now? As someone said, this is myth from the depths of the "Political correctness gone mad!" files. If it's not, perhaps you should actually read the reponces you refer to realise than no one actual ever says that: you just want to think that we do because you can't debate the actual argument we present.

What argument can you possibly give for the easy treatment and early release of the gerard barrys, the thomas murrays, the michael murphys and the larry murphys ?

I can bet that when gerard barry was in court for the killing of Colm Phelan in Eyre Sq, his legal team were talking about his hard upbringing and how he deserved leniency because of his age.

It still doesn't change the fact he led a gang that kicked and bludgoened with a bottle a guy to death.

The excuses given are upbringing, social class, location and it is used both for the guys from Ballymun, Southhill, etc and the ones who kicked Brian Murphy to death.

Madam_X · 31-01-2013 12:34PM

Ikky didn't say anywhere that there is an argument for easy treatment/early release.

As for what you say are excuses, nobody sensible thinks they are - nobody.
These factors could partially explain why they behaved as they did, but explaining is not the same as excusing. They're still responsible and they're still vile people.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 31-01-2013 12:51PM

jmayo wrote: »

The three strikes rule is not for petty criminals although the last offence can be as petty as stelaing a can of coke.

Just because I don't want our current system does not mean I want the US system.

You were the one who brought up the three strikes rule in the first place. I simply said that if we bring in a system - any system - make sure it works first.

For the record, the three strikes rule in the US varies from state to state as to what crimes it's applicable to and what crimes it isn't. In a lot of them, the crimes have to be felonies.

What argument can you possibly give for the easy treatment and early release of the gerard barrys, the thomas murrays, the michael murphys and the larry murphys ?

None. Which is why I never presented one.

Again, let's stick to stuff I actually said, shall we?

jmayo · 31-01-2013 12:51PM

WileyCoyote wrote: »

Two of thse mentioned were found guilty of manslaughter before going on to commit murder.
Are you suggesting that everyone who commits manslaughter be locked up forever?

Yes gerard barry was found guilty of manslaughter, even though he was one of the ringleaders of the gang.
He was released on bail for assualt on his partner, even though he had previous history of manslaughter and was suspect in rape case.

How michael murphy managed to just be charged with manslaughter for the killing of Catherine Carroll in 1983 shows how much of a joke our system is.
Too many people get manslaughter which has an element of accidental unprovoked to it.

BTW he also had later convictions which included armed robbery and an assault on two women as they walked home from a late disco. Murphy grabbed the two girls by the neck and tried to pull them to the ground in Drogheda. He served six months for that attack.

Why wasn't he made serve the remaining years of his initial sentence when he was found guilty of these subsequent crimes ?

WileyCoyote wrote: »

My own view is that we should have a sentence of "Indefinite imprisonment" for certain offences or repeat offenders, whereby the perpetrator is indefinitley incarcerated until they can show that they have taken sufficent steps through engaging with the system to warrant consideration for release at some point and under specified conditions.

The likes of the guys I mentioned should never ever be set free.
They have stepped over a line, where they have shown they are repeat killers without remorse, that means they never deserve to walk amongst us again.

The latest greatest example of a farce of a system we have was how larry murphy still got remission even though he made no effort at confessing his guilt, which would have helped the victim a little, or he made absolutely no effort to engage with so called rehabilitation while he was incascerated.

Odysseus · 31-01-2013 12:54PM

jmayo wrote: »

Well lets list a few of the more famous ones shall we ?
Note I am also including one who was given bail rather than early release.

Gerard Barry of Galway had been part of a gang that killed 26-year-old Colm Phelan in a Eyre Sq, he had served time, he was allowed on bail after beating up his girlfriend, even though he was suspect in the savage rape of a French girl.
Then he went on to savegly rape and murder Manuela Riedo.

What about the 28 year old German girl Bettina Poeschel killed in Louth/Meath by second time murderer, michael murphy, who had been released after a 9 years of a 12 year sentence for viciously killing a 64 year old widow Mrs Catherine Carroll ?

What about thomas murray in Galway who killed a retired teacher, Mrs Nancy Nolan, whilst on day release from Castlerea prison where he was serving a sentence for the vicous murder of an elderly neighbour William Mannion ?
Whilst he had been on a work release program in Galway he had been found to have been engaged in appropriate behaviour near children yet he was still allowed out on day release.
BTW he stabbed and bludgeoned his victims to death and by most appraisals he is psychotic and will kill again.

BTW I also await the day when some unfortunate is the latest victim of larry murphy.

I have named the victims here since all we ever seem to hear is the names of their killers who so often the ones whose civil and human rights seem to matter to some.

Now if the system can get it wrong with these very dangerous killers, even psychopaths, then imagine how many earlt releases and wrong they get it with run of the mill theives, muggers, those guilty of assualts and gbh, etc.

Now aren't you glad you asked the above question.
Lets hear the excuses and then perhaps you will have the balls to go tell them to the families of the victims like the Reidos or the Nolans.

Right so I'm not that familiar with the cases you quote so please correct me where I'm wrong.

That first case Barry, so he completed a sentence for rape correct. Your saying he was on bail for an alleged attack on his girlfriend; whilst he is also a suspect in another rape case?

What happened here, still on bail? Has he been convicted of either outsanding case? What is your point here, he should not have been released? He should not have been granted bail?

Is the any sexual offense with the second case the guy convicted of murder? Has the second murder been dealt with by the courts yet?

This Murray guy, how long into his sentense was he when he was granted day release? I'm guessing there is a typo here and that this behaviour
near children was inappropriate? What was it? Is his psychosis implicated in his actions? Most people who are psychotic are not violent, however by the nature of psychotic thinking when it goes bad it can go very bad.

What do you think should have happened in this case?

I'm sorry the next paragraph about the systemm getting it wrong I can only follow up to where you deal with the serious cases; what point are you making in relation to run of the mill thieves etc?

What makes you think I would not be able to have a reasoned discussion with the families or the victims of serious crime? Maybe I already have, you never know maybe people close to me have been victims of seroious crimes.

HHobo · 31-01-2013 12:55PM

CruelCoin wrote: »

Why would i bet on something as sordid as this?

About as bad as betting on cockfighting.

Also, will you be posting a thread like this for every reported rape?

You think when someone says "I'm betting... " that they are looking for someone giving odds? The OP asked for predictions. It was his/her way of suggesting that the sentencing would not follow rationally from the crime or at least could not be expected to. If you read the post as though the OP had a bag of popcorn on hand and paddy power's number on speed dial then you read it wrong.

This should be obvious to any reader but then I forget that some people just can't resist an oppertunity for some good ole' moral outrage. The number of thanks the inital high-horse post referring to this "betting" got says some very depressing things about the level of reading comprehension on boards. Reading comprehension isn't just about knowing what each word means individually, it is the ability to pick up on the author's intent. What they are trying to communicate.

Rape in Cork

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