Ethnic Cleansing in Israel?

dees99 · 28-01-2013 06:03PM

The article does not say they were forced to take it, the article says Israel was accused of forcing them.

Israel has admitted using the depo on these women, there is no evidence to suggest they were forced or it was carried out secretly and unknown to the victim.

Seachmall · 28-01-2013 06:05PM

seamus wrote: »

Because strictly speaking, we exist to procreate. Therefore to forcibly prevent procreation is to deny a person the very essence of existence.

That rings too much of an appeal to nature for me.

Just because it's what we're born to do (in a purely natural sense) doesn't make it unassailable in my opinion.

Sir Gallagher · 28-01-2013 06:08PM

Clicked into this thread thinking it was promoting Jewish face wash.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcYppAs6ZdI

Duiske · 28-01-2013 06:09PM

seamus wrote: »

It's straight up genocide.

I'm surprised we're not seeing more coverage of this. The UN should be getting involved and bringing a major criminal trial against the Israeli government.

There will be a draft resolution brought before the UN about this, most likely by Russia. The US will be pretty much silent about it until it come's to a vote, at which point they will veto it as they have done with every resolution since the inception of the UN that dares cast criticism on Israel.

snubbleste · 28-01-2013 06:13PM

Indonesia used depo-provera to sterlise women in the now independent East Timor. The women did not realise they'd had the injections as it was given to them as part of another medical procedure.

statesaver · 28-01-2013 06:14PM

dees99 wrote: »

The article does not say they were forced to take it, the article says Israel was accused of forcing them.

Israel has admitted using the depo on these women, there is no evidence to suggest they were forced or it was carried out secretly and unknown to the victim.

So the women volenteered to take. Don't remember reading that

seamus · 28-01-2013 06:18PM

Seachmall wrote: »

That rings too much of an appeal to nature for me.

Just because it's what we're born to do (in a purely natural sense) doesn't make it unassailable in my opinion.

It's not exactly the same thing. An appeal to nature upholds that something is good or right because it's "natural". I didn't say whether procreation was good or right, simply asserting the fact that the only goal of all life is to procreate. So to prevent procreation undermines the reason for existing in the first place.

But that's a reductionist, ridiculous point of view. Your question is philosophical/ethical rather than biological.

starlings · 28-01-2013 06:19PM

Seachmall wrote: »

Devil's Advocate:

Why do we have an irrevocable right to pop out a young'un?

The government reserves the right to take your kids from you but doesn't have the right to stop you from having kids? That's just a recipe for disaster.

It seems to me to be one of those "you have it because you have it" things but I can't think of a logical argument for it. It intuitively makes sense you should have that right but that's obviously not an argument.

Anyone?

UN declaration of Human Rights:

"Article 16.

(1) Men and women of full age, without any limitation due to race, nationality or religion, have the right to marry and to found a family. They are entitled to equal rights as to marriage, during marriage and at its dissolution."

I can't think of a logical argument against it. As you've noted, the government can take children away from parents who can't/won't look after them, but how can their neglect or abuse be proven in advance?

P_1 · 28-01-2013 06:26PM

So in the State of Israel all Jews are equal, however some Jews are more equal than others?

Sorry couldn't resist an Orwell reference

Seaneh · 28-01-2013 06:28PM

Zebra3 wrote: »

The weird thing is that Israel airlifted about 40,000 Ethiopians that they deemed to be jewish enough during the famines in the 1980s.

Odd that they're now turned on them.

There are still camps in Ethiopia where Ethiopian Jews can present themselves and if they can prove they are Jewish they are given Israeli passports and flown to Tel Aviv, the process takes about 2 months and while they wait they live in the camps. It's in these camps that the injections start.

Since the 80's over 100,000 Ethiopian Jews have moved to Israel using this method.

Anyway, as seamus said, this is straight up Genocide and Ethnic Cleansing, but that shouldn't surprise anyone, Israel was built on both and continues to do both to Palestinians (both inside Israel and in Gaza and the West Bank).

Anyone who isn't a white European/Ashkenazi isn't "the right colour" for Israel.

Ush1 · 28-01-2013 06:31PM

Seaneh wrote: »

There are still camps in Ethiopia where Ethiopian Jews can present themselves and if they can prove they are Jewish they are given Israeli passports and flown to Tel Aviv, the process takes about 2 months and while they wait they live in the camps. It's in these camps that the injections start.

Since the 80's over 100,000 Ethiopian Jews have moved to Israel using this method.

Anyway, as seamus said, this is straight up Genocide and Ethnic Cleansing, but that shouldn't surprise anyone, Israel was built on both and continues to do both to Palestinians (both inside Israel and in Gaza and the West Bank).

Anyone who isn't a white European/Ashkenazi isn't "the right colour" for Israel.

Why would they allow them in at all then?

You reckon they might want to round up all non euro descent jews and kill them rather than just not allowing them in to Israel? Genuine question.

snubbleste · 28-01-2013 06:32PM

Ush1 wrote: »

Why would they allow them in at all then?
You reckon they might want to round up all non euro descent jews and kill them rather than just not allowing them in to Israel? Genuine question.

Because Israel has a law of return that allows any Jew to emigrate to the 'homeland'

Seaneh · 28-01-2013 06:33PM

Ush1 wrote: »

Why would they allow them in at all then?

You reckon they might want to round up all non euro descent jews and kill them rather than just not allowing them in to Israel? Genuine question.

See the post below yours.

They can't deny them "right of return" under Israeli law, so they allow them to return and then allow them to die off, much easier and less messy than rounding them all up and killing them.

starlings · 28-01-2013 06:38PM

Seaneh wrote: »

See the post below yours.

They can't deny them "right of return" under Israeli law, so they allow them to return and then allow them to die off, much easier and less messy than rounding them all up and killing them.

surely it would be easier for them to change their own law than get into eugenics?

Seaneh · 28-01-2013 06:38PM

P_1 wrote: »

So in the State of Israel all Jews are equal, however some Jews are more equal than others?

Sorry couldn't resist an Orwell reference

That's always been true though.

Ethiopian Jew's are excluded from receiving housing from the Housing Committee as well.

Then you have the fact that Arab Israeli's have 7 stars on their ID Cards and Passports to identify them as Arab. There used to be the word ARAB stamped on the ID's but a court case was brought against the government. So instead of the word arab, they have 7 stars.

Israel is a profoundly racist country both institutionally and publicly.

Have a watch of this video, it's sickening.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8n-y24SzbCY

Seaneh · 28-01-2013 06:39PM

starlings wrote: »

surely it would be easier for them to change their own law than get into eugenics?

They can't change the law, it's in their constitution and it's the same law they use to justify the expansion of settlements in the west bank "we have to build these villages to provide homes for our new citizens".

Grayson · 28-01-2013 06:40PM

Seachmall wrote: »

Devil's Advocate:

Why do we have an irrevocable right to pop out a young'un?

The government reserves the right to take your kids from you but doesn't have the right to stop you from having kids? That's just a recipe for disaster.

It seems to me to be one of those "you have it because you have it" things but I can't think of a logical argument for it. It intuitively makes sense you should have that right but that's obviously not an argument.

Anyone?

That's an interesting point. Do we have a right to have children. And i can see arguments both ways.

BUT if we have a right to, then everyone has a right to. When you target just black people, that's wrong.

starlings · 28-01-2013 06:44PM

Seaneh wrote: »

They can't change the law, it's in their constitution and it's the same law they use to justify the expansion of settlements in the west bank "we have to build these villages to provide homes for our new citizens".

Then they could have a referendum. It strikes me as a series of ad hoc measures rather than the final solution you're inferring. Correct me if I've misunderstood you.

inforfun · 28-01-2013 06:44PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Let me make this simple for you.

If you prevent members of a specific ethnic group from having babies...see where this is going?

My name is URL wrote: »

What would you call it, oh wise one?

Well, I read in the article "Lower the birth rate" not prevent any births at all.

Sterilizing people before they have kids might turn into genocide/ethnic cleansing.
Giving birth control to people after they have had kids already is just what it says: birth control.

Nodin · 28-01-2013 06:46PM

inforfun wrote: »

Well, I read in the article "Lower the birth rate" not prevent any births at all.

Sterilizing people before they have kids might turn into genocide/ethnic cleansing.
Giving birth control to people after they have had kids already is just what it says: birth control.

Not when its targeted at a very specific group, no.

Seaneh · 28-01-2013 06:46PM

inforfun wrote: »

Well, I read in the article "Lower the birth rate" not prevent any births at all.

Sterilizing people before they have kids might turn into genocide/ethnic cleansing.
Giving birth control to people after they have had kids already is just what it says: birth control.

Why not give it to all Israeli women after they have a kid so?

And by the way, they don't only give it to women who've already had children, they give it to the majority of Ethiopian women.

P_1 · 28-01-2013 06:47PM

inforfun wrote: »

Well, I read in the article "Lower the birth rate" not prevent any births at all.

Sterilizing people before they have kids might turn into genocide/ethnic cleansing.
Giving birth control to people after they have had kids already is just what it says: birth control.

That would be fine if the recipients of this 'birth control' consented to receiving it. It seems clear that they didn't consent it though.

StinkyMunkey · 28-01-2013 06:52PM

The Israelis are a law unto themselves, no matter what they do, they answer to no international bodies. Sure the UN can wave their hands around and condemn it. But the fact is, no one can do anything about it. The Israelis are just to powerful. And what makes it even more sickening is because they should know better after what the Jewish people suffered.

Duiske · 28-01-2013 07:21PM

starlings wrote: »

Then they could have a referendum. It strikes me as a series of ad hoc measures rather than the final solution you're inferring. Correct me if I've misunderstood you.

Right of return is one of the cornerstones of the Israeli constitution which will never be abandoned and to amend it so as to exclude Jews of a particular race would, obviously, be seen as racist.

starlings · 28-01-2013 07:33PM

Duiske wrote: »

Right of return is one of the cornerstones of the Israeli constitution which will never be abandoned and to amend it so as to exclude Jews of a particular race would, obviously, be seen as racist.

I get that. But I don't think this report, while shocking, indicates a consciously plotted genocide.

Duiske · 28-01-2013 07:53PM

starlings wrote: »

I get that. But I don't think this report, while shocking, indicates a consciously plotted genocide.

Someone "consciously" decided to instigate and continue with the policy of forced (or at least, non-consensual) birth control, and it does appear to fall into what the UN define as Genocide.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide

a legal definition is found in the 1948 United Nations Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (CPPCG). Article 2 of this convention defines genocide as "any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; [and] forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."[3]

starlings · 28-01-2013 08:02PM

Duiske wrote: »

Someone "consciously" decided to instigate and continue with the policy of forced (or at least, non-consensual) birth control, and it does appear to fall into what the UN define as Genocide.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I meant that I am not convinced that the state of Israel is actively conspiring to wipe out its Ethiopian population. This doesn't mean I think institutions within the state of Israel are incapable of getting tangled up in unethical & immoral knots and loopholes. I think it's more clusterfvck than conspiracy, tbh.

And I stand corrected - eugenics is a subset of genocide.

Nodin · 28-01-2013 08:06PM

starlings wrote: »

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I meant that I am not convinced that the state of Israel is actively conspiring to wipe out its Ethiopian population. .......

No, its probably involved in actively targeting a minority and trying to limit that groups growth.

My name is URL · 28-01-2013 08:08PM

starlings wrote: »

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I meant that I am not convinced that the state of Israel is actively conspiring to wipe out its Ethiopian population. This doesn't mean I think institutions within the state of Israel are incapable of getting tangled up in unethical & immoral knots and loopholes. I think it's more clusterfvck than conspiracy, tbh.

And I stand corrected - eugenics is a subset of genocide.

I dunno.. when the primeminister of a supposedly civilised nation says things like the following, it'd make you wonder...

Last year, the Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, who also holds the health portfolio, warned that illegal immigrants from Africa “threaten our existence as a Jewish and democratic state”.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israel-gave-birth-control-to-ethiopian-jews-without-their-consent-8468800.html

starlings · 28-01-2013 08:21PM

My name is URL wrote: »

I dunno.. when the primeminister of a supposedly civilised nation says things like the following, it'd make you wonder...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israel-gave-birth-control-to-ethiopian-jews-without-their-consent-8468800.html

I do wonder. And I'm appalled by some of Israel's actions. But I won't jump to conclusions. As I've said, I think it's a clusterfvck, and should be unravelled very carefully and objectively.

Ethnic Cleansing in Israel?

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