Instead of arming Gardai

Arpa · 26-01-2013 04:06AM

tdv123 wrote: »

Yes, because that system has worked perfectly in Mexico. Hardly any crime in that country at all.

That's a gross over-simplification. Consider the size of Mexico compared to Ireland. Consider the poverty status in South America whereby it is seen as acceptable to produce drugs as a means to an end for a family to survive.

In Limerick and Dublin it's a different story.
There is no production of drugs on this island of any sizeable note.
The size of our population puts us in the advantageous position of eradicating the posession of drugs and weapons. Taking one scumbag to court for transporting cocaine in his Mitsubishi is not going to do anything. Another scumbag will take his place.

Let a dedicated narcotics and firearm force go in strong on all these gangs, shut down connections and then step back to let the Gardai continue as normal unarmed without fear.

ColeTrain · 26-01-2013 04:06AM

JayEnnis wrote: »

There's never going to be an end to drug violence until recreational drugs are legalised.

Agreed. The solution is simple but most would rather Garda death squads roaming our country than let someone buy some weed legally.

spoonfed · 26-01-2013 04:11AM

Arpa wrote: »

That's a gross over-simplification. Consider the size of Mexico compared to Ireland. Consider the poverty status in South America whereby it is seen as acceptable to produce drugs as a means to an end for a family to survive.

In Limerick and Dublin it's a different story.
There is no production of drugs on this island of any sizeable note.
The size of our population puts us in the advantageous position of eradicating the posession of drugs and weapons. Taking one scumbag to court for transporting cocaine in his Mitsubishi is not going to do anything. Another scumbag will take his place.

Let a dedicated narcotics and firearm force go in strong on all these gangs, shut down connections and then step back to let the Gardai continue as normal unarmed without fear.

If you think for one second that weapons and especially drugs can be completely eradicated, then you are proving your absolute lack of intelligence and mindblowing ignorance and your posts regarding this subject should just be disregarded as nonsense!

666irishguy · 26-01-2013 04:19AM

I think the Guards need to be not only armed, but given better powers for surveillance and detention etc. All criminals with a certain amount or type of convictions should be tagged with a GPS tracker. Couple that with harder prison systems and you will see a drop in crime.

Arpa · 26-01-2013 04:28AM

spoonfed wrote: »

If you think for one second that weapons and especially drugs can be completely eradicated, then you are proving your absolute lack of intelligence and mindblowing ignorance and your posts regarding this subject should just be disregarded as nonsense!

Mate...seriously? Finish that beer and off to bed with ya.

spoonfed · 26-01-2013 04:33AM

Arpa wrote: »

Mate...seriously?

Absolutely homeslice

Overheal · 26-01-2013 04:35AM

Arpa wrote:

I suggest we need an operation like they have in Brazil or Mexico. Have a tactical armed unit who pro-actively infiltrate, disrupt and eradicate all criminal gangs who they suspect to have firepower.

Obviously you have no idea what the situation is in mexico. they have serious gang violence issues, and political assassinations by cartels. Mexico isn't a model of doing things right.

token101 · 26-01-2013 05:09AM

It's amazing the ridiculous suggestions that come out after the country gets a shock. BOPE for Dublin? :pac:

A Garda getting murdered in this fashion is extremely rare, it doesn't require an OTT response. It's a horrific thing to happen and very tragic but at a guess I would imagine this Detective Garda was armed, as far as I know detective units are. Obviously this all total speculation and guesswork because I'm no expert, but it seems a bit strange from reading that he approached four armed men on his own and I'd wonder if he was wearing a vest to protect himself. That should be the first thing to be looked, procedural things. I doubt we need militarised squads in Ireland, I'd guess it's probably the Gardai need just some relatively small changes and probably more resources.

token101 · 26-01-2013 05:22AM

spoonfed wrote: »

If you think for one second that weapons and especially drugs can be completely eradicated, then you are proving your absolute lack of intelligence and mindblowing ignorance and your posts regarding this subject should just be disregarded as nonsense!

You know what though? They could probably make a huge dent in it by legalising drugs and spending all the money they spent on stopping supply on education and rehab facilities. It would drain these gangs of their biggest revenue source instantly. I used to be the first to say that legalising drugs would be a disaster but the more you think about it and see more and more senior figures from every single corner of society saying drugs prohibition will never work, it has to be the way to go.

spoonfed · 26-01-2013 05:49AM

token101 wrote: »

You know what though? They could probably make a huge dent in it by legalising drugs and spending all the money they spent on stopping supply on education and rehab facilities. It would drain these gangs of their biggest revenue source instantly. I used to be the first to say that legalising drugs would be a disaster but the more you think about it and see more and more senior figures from every single corner of society saying drugs prohibition will never work, it has to be the way to go.

The war on drugs just simply does not work, and that is a proven fact. Unfortunately there are still alot of people brainwashed into thinking the opposite.

tdv123 · 26-01-2013 06:23AM

Arpa wrote: »

That's a gross over-simplification. Consider the size of Mexico compared to Ireland. Consider the poverty status in South America whereby it is seen as acceptable to produce drugs as a means to an end for a family to survive.

In Limerick and Dublin it's a different story.
There is no production of drugs on this island of any sizeable note.
The size of our population puts us in the advantageous position of eradicating the posession of drugs and weapons. Taking one scumbag to court for transporting cocaine in his Mitsubishi is not going to do anything. Another scumbag will take his place.

Let a dedicated narcotics and firearm force go in strong on all these gangs, shut down connections and then step back to let the Gardai continue as normal unarmed without fear.

How are they suppose to get the source of information to go ahead with this approach exactly? Do they just start shooting at people who they believe but have no evidence to prove there criminals?

Gangs/Drugs aren't a big problem here anyway. It's very rare for any civilians to be harmed by these "gangs". Most of the Kingpins here would be small timers in most other countries.

Paddy Cow · 26-01-2013 07:38AM

Arpa wrote: »

Let a dedicated narcotics and firearm force go in strong on all these gangs, shut down connections and then step back to let the Gardai continue as normal unarmed without fear.

Too much accountability and the bleeding heart liberals would kick up a stink about their human rights. It would be more realistic to hire the A-Team to come in and eradicate them.

Grayson · 26-01-2013 08:48AM

I for one welcome this new police unit. It'll make swatting a lot funnier.

Especially after I give them the OP's address.

TwoShedsJackson · 26-01-2013 08:54AM

tdv123 wrote: »

Yes, because that system has worked perfectly in Mexico. Hardly any crime in that country at all.

You forgot to mention what a crime-free paradise Brazil is.

yermanoffthetv · 26-01-2013 09:07AM

Duties

The Emergency Response Unit is responsible for handling the following operations in service of the Garda Síochána:[3][4]
Armed response in anti-criminal/subversive operations

Implementation of search techniques, including use of forced entry

Execution of high-risk warrants

VIP Protection

Provide specialist patrols as directed

Provide ground and air regional patrols

Hostage rescue

So OP what duties would your death squad militarised force undertake that the Navy ERU RSU and armed detectives dont do already?

kraggy · 26-01-2013 09:27AM

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

So, you're saying we should create the ERU?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garda_Emergency_Response_Unit

In fairness to the OP, the ERU is exactly that, a RESPONSE unit.

In South America they have units who proactively go in and cleanse an area of criminals and their weaponry.

What we need are tougher laws that give the Gardai more power to go in and search houses and vehicles if theres even a sniff of illegal goings on occurring.

Also linked to this is the illegality of drugs. There's too much money to be made by gangs to stop killing.

Grayson · 26-01-2013 09:30AM

So your saying we should legalise drugs (Not all but some of their biggest revenue generators)?

Witcher · 26-01-2013 09:31AM

kraggy wrote: »

In fairness to the OP, the ERU is exactly that, a RESPONSE unit.

In South America they have units who proactively go in and cleanse an area of criminals and their weaponry.

What we need are tougher laws that give the Gardai more power to go in and search houses and vehicles if theres even a sniff of illegal goings on occurring.

Also linked to this is the illegality of drugs. There's too much money to be made by gangs to stop killing.

They already raid buildings used by gangs...the problem is finding them, they're not exactly signposted.

kraggy · 26-01-2013 09:32AM

Overheal wrote: »

Obviously you have no idea what the situation is in mexico. they have serious gang violence issues, and political assassinations by cartels. Mexico isn't a model of doing things right.

Much of that is to do with low paid police officers taking bribes and turning a blond eye to criminality.

If the cuts continue to affect the Gardai's ability to fight crime then morale in the Irish police force may stoop so low that corruption here will get worse thereby making bribes from gangs to Gardai more likely. Which in turn exacerbates the gang situation by increasing their power further.

earlyevening · 26-01-2013 10:12AM

But the garda that was shot last night WAS armed. He didn't get his gun out in time apparantly.

kowloon · 26-01-2013 10:22AM

tdv123 wrote: »

Unless you take "bathsalts" & start eating homeless people's faces.

I snorted Radox once. Felt like eating my own face.

CruelCoin · 26-01-2013 10:32AM

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

They're a less mental version of what he described.

The ERU are reactive only. What the OP is suggesting is proactive. Big difference.

Arpa · 26-01-2013 01:08PM

I think people are over simplifying the correlation between the South American situation and here.

People keep mentioning that.."Oooh and of course Brazil is a crime free society"

That's irrelevant. What the Brazilians and Mexicans have had to do is set up these militarised units in a struggling reactive effort to deal with something that is out of hand. It wasn't like the units have always been there and have failed in preventing crime. They have been put in place to try get a handle on things.

What I'm saying is why wait till we drug gangs get more power and more innocent people start to be injured? Criminals with revolvers don't give a damn if an innocent is shot in their attempt to make money and gain power, so why wait around? Move in know while the problem is relatively in it's infancy and cut it at it's source. I don't see what's so difficult about that idea.

TwoShedsJackson · 26-01-2013 04:22PM

Arpa wrote: »

That's irrelevant. What the Brazilians and Mexicans have had to do is set up these militarised units in a struggling reactive effort to deal with something that is out of hand. It wasn't like the units have always been there and have failed in preventing crime. They have been put in place to try get a handle on things.

And they have had pretty much the opposite of the intended effect. Such units are prone to corruption, excessive force and worst of all they don't work. As long as people want to obtain drugs, they will be available.

Having them be illegal simply drives the trade underground, jacks up the price of the product, results in more crime as addicts attempt to get the money to afford the drugs, and has all the attendant violence of gang struggles. They should be legalised and taxed and if you don't believe me read up on what has happened in Portugal in the last ten years, since they adopted a new policy on Class A drugs.

seaniefr · 26-01-2013 04:30PM

Arpa wrote: »

Saw the thread on tough on scumbags was closed, for what reason I don't know, because it was an interesting debate on gun law in Ireland. So, if mods, this sparks something which you deem out of line, so be it...but.....what about this.....

I suggest we need an operation like they have in Brazil or Mexico. Have a tactical armed unit who pro-actively infiltrate, disrupt and eradicate all criminal gangs who they suspect to have firepower.

Not the regular Gardai but a more militarised force. We need to cut the b*stards down before they grow any bigger. This, accompanied with tighter border controls preventing smuggled weapons and drugs will have a significant effect. We are an island after all, the only method of smuggling weapons into this land is by air or sea. It should be attainable.

Over time the supply of illegal weapons will be reduced due to the difficulty over importing them.

A unit with this power will have it's drawbacks. Obviously in the beginning there will be collateral damage and the court cases will run for years, but it is favourable I believe to letting this grow any further than it has done so already.

Now I know we don't have a problem quite as severe as that in the slums of Brazil/Mexico but why wait till then? There is a unit in Brazil called BOPE who do exactly this. They are trained rigorously to engage drug gangs and suspected criminals with weapons. They do function primarily in the favellas of Rio which is a far sight different to our country's streets, but if we use an urban military force to put an end to it now then we can reap the rewards for future generations. Also what chance does Deco in Limerick, with his little pistol stand against a trained unit like this. If he's willing to carry a weapon and use it, then he is willing to die. Live by the sword, die by the sword and all that.

We already have the talent there in the guise of the Rangers, I just think it's time to start using it. And yes for a while it may be intimidating to see black clad tactical teams in our urban areas but once crime has been significantly reduced they could be recinded and put on standby leaving the streets safer for our Gardai to patrol.

Giving the Gardai guns is not the option as it prolongs it - Guards get guns - Criminals get bigger guns and then all is fair in war as both sides will see it. A short burst of agressive action will negate this and allow us to continue as a gun free society.

One slight flaw in your plan I don't know if you read news reports but 'Deco in Limerick with his little pistol' is almost better armed than the Dublin equivalent and on a par, if not better than any ERU unit. Your idea might have merit but with the size of the PC brigade in Ireland and the prevalence of drugs I don't imagine it will get past this Boards.ie forum. But I would love to be proved wrong!

Witcher · 26-01-2013 04:32PM

seaniefr wrote: »

One slight flaw in your plan I don't know if you read news reports but 'Deco in Limerick with his little pistol' is almost better armed than the Dublin equivalent and on a par, if not better than any ERU unit. Your idea might have merit but with the size of the PC brigade in Ireland and the prevalence of drugs I don't imagine it will get past this Boards.ie forum. But I would love to be proved wrong!

Someone with a pistol is far from being as well armed as the ERU.

alexlyons · 26-01-2013 04:39PM

eh we're an island ye? what about those other 6 counties up north that isn't part of our amazingly well governed area (:rolleyes:) to the south?

Would we control the coastline up there as well to ensure no weapons are smuggled in? Because if we don't then the weapons can pretty easily make it on to the physical island and therefore across the "border"... Oh wait, we've no jurisdiction up there.

Ah sure, if the UK leave the EU we could just bring back the armed border. Problem solved.

Great idea OP.

end of the road · 26-01-2013 04:56PM

Arpa wrote: »

People keep mentioning that.."Oooh and of course Brazil is a crime free society"

who has mentioned that? i'l think you'l find those who made that statement were being sarcastic

Arpa wrote: »

What I'm saying is why wait till the drug gangs get more power and more innocent people start to be injured?

we have armed units, stop going on with this sensationalest bulls//t

Arpa wrote: »

Criminals with revolvers don't give a damn if an innocent is shot in their attempt to make money and gain power

nothing will change that, thats what criminals do

Arpa wrote: »

why wait around?

wait around for what? are the aliens coming? your reading to much of paul williams, i wouldn't take any notice of him, its all sensationalest crap with him

Arpa wrote: »

Move in now while the problem is relatively in it's infancy and cut it at it's source.

move in where? next door? ah nice, new neighbours, lovely, i'l think you'l find the way to cut it at its source its called legalise drugs

Arpa wrote: »

I don't see what's so difficult about that idea.

its nonsense and fantasy and being sensationalest, the rate for this type of crime in this country is very low

seaniefr · 26-01-2013 04:59PM

Blay wrote: »

Someone with a pistol is far from being as well armed as the ERU.

READ my post they have automatic weapons in Limerick as well as Dublin or go and do a little research (:-)

Witcher · 26-01-2013 05:07PM

seaniefr wrote: »

READ my post they have automatic weapons in Limerick as well as Dublin or go and do a little research (:-)

Apologies..I didn't see the 'Deco with his little pistol' bit was from a post you were responding to.

Instead of arming Gardai

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