Instead of arming Gardai

Arpa

Saw the thread on tough on scumbags was closed, for what reason I don't know, because it was an interesting debate on gun law in Ireland. So, if mods, this sparks something which you deem out of line, so be it...but.....what about this.....

I suggest we need an operation like they have in Brazil or Mexico. Have a tactical armed unit who pro-actively infiltrate, disrupt and eradicate all criminal gangs who they suspect to have firepower.

Not the regular Gardai but a more militarised force. We need to cut the b*stards down before they grow any bigger. This, accompanied with tighter border controls preventing smuggled weapons and drugs will have a significant effect. We are an island after all, the only method of smuggling weapons into this land is by air or sea. It should be attainable.

Over time the supply of illegal weapons will be reduced due to the difficulty over importing them.

A unit with this power will have it's drawbacks. Obviously in the beginning there will be collateral damage and the court cases will run for years, but it is favourable I believe to letting this grow any further than it has done so already.

Now I know we don't have a problem quite as severe as that in the slums of Brazil/Mexico but why wait till then? There is a unit in Brazil called BOPE who do exactly this. They are trained rigorously to engage drug gangs and suspected criminals with weapons. They do function primarily in the favellas of Rio which is a far sight different to our country's streets, but if we use an urban military force to put an end to it now then we can reap the rewards for future generations. Also what chance does Deco in Limerick, with his little pistol stand against a trained unit like this. If he's willing to carry a weapon and use it, then he is willing to die. Live by the sword, die by the sword and all that.

We already have the talent there in the guise of the Rangers, I just think it's time to start using it. And yes for a while it may be intimidating to see black clad tactical teams in our urban areas but once crime has been significantly reduced they could be recinded and put on standby leaving the streets safer for our Gardai to patrol.

Giving the Gardai guns is not the option as it prolongs it - Guards get guns - Criminals get bigger guns and then all is fair in war as both sides will see it. A short burst of agressive action will negate this and allow us to continue as a gun free society.

darced

This post has been deleted.

AlmightyCushion

So, you're saying we should create the ERU?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garda_Emergency_Response_Unit

BillyMitchel

Way to long to read at 2am bro any chance of one of them tdlr thingies??

0066ad

darced wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I thought it was the imbd to a new Scorsese movie

JayEnnis

darced wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Ah yes, here we have the uninformed boards commentator in it's natural habitat.

The Gardai need to be armed. The criminals in this country have a monopoly on firearms and it's gotten to the stage where it's quite ridiculous. Although the above post is a tad far fetched, we should be proactive instead of reactive in the case of gang violence. A deterrent is better than a solution.

Hootanany

Arpa wrote: »

Saw the thread on tough on scumbags was closed, for what reason I don't know, because it was an interesting debate on gun law in Ireland. So, if mods, this sparks something which you deem out of line, so be it...but.....what about this.....

I suggest we need an operation like they have in Brazil or Mexico. Have a tactical armed unit who pro-actively infiltrate, disrupt and eradicate all criminal gangs who they suspect to have firepower.

Not the regular Gardai but a more militarised force. We need to cut the b*stards down before they grow any bigger. This, accompanied with tighter border controls preventing smuggled weapons and drugs will have a significant effect. We are an island after all, the only method of smuggling weapons into this land is by air or sea. It should be attainable.

Over time the supply of illegal weapons will be reduced due to the difficulty over importing them.

A unit with this power will have it's drawbacks. Obviously in the beginning there will be collateral damage and the court cases will run for years, but it is favourable I believe to letting this grow any further than it has done so already.

Now I know we don't have a problem quite as severe as that in the slums of Brazil/Mexico but why wait till then? There is a unit in Brazil called BOPE who do exactly this. They are trained rigorously to engage drug gangs and suspected criminals with weapons. They do function primarily in the favellas of Rio which is a far sight different to our country's streets, but if we use an urban military force to put an end to it now then we can reap the rewards for future generations. Also what chance does Deco in Limerick, with his little pistol stand against a trained unit like this. If he's willing to carry a weapon and use it, then he is willing to die. Live by the sword, die by the sword and all that.

We already have the talent there in the guise of the Rangers, I just think it's time to start using it. And yes for a while it may be intimidating to see black clad tactical teams in our urban areas but once crime has been significantly reduced they could be recinded and put on standby leaving the streets safer for our Gardai to patrol.

Giving the Gardai guns is not the option as it prolongs it - Guards get guns - Criminals get bigger guns and then all is fair in war as both sides will see it. A short burst of agressive action will negate this and allow us to continue as a gun free society.

One word

Tasers

JayEnnis

Hootanany wrote: »

One word

Tasers

Because a taser is a realistic weapon against a firearm :rolleyes: I wonder where you people get these ideas from. For a start the range is limited and what if multiple targets are present?

Hootanany

JayEnnis wrote: »

Because a taser is a realistic weapon against a firearm :rolleyes: I wonder where you people get these ideas from. For a start the range is limited and what if multiple targets are present?

2 tasers

Clutchkick

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

So, you're saying we should create the ERU?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garda_Emergency_Response_Unit

Well **** you anyway, I was just about to be all smug and clever and say that! haha

seven_eleven

Has the ERU even been active as of late? I havent seen or heard of them in....forever.

I see the armed Regional Support Unit around quite a bit though. They have pretty distinct looking cars.

ITS_A_BADGER

I can see the adverts now.


The rangers fcuk yeah!, coming to save the motherfcuking day yea !

Arpa

Yeah was probably a bit long for 2am, sorry. Also was probably a bit far fetched in terms of BOPE etc, but a pro-active armed unit would definitely help. Not the ERU because they are reactive. They essentially show up at hostage situations were firearms are involved. What about just storming a known criminal/drug gang location and disrupting it?

I'm not au fait with legislation but surely some power could be given to a unit like this if it means saving lives.

Our regular Gardai should not be armed. I am proud to be in a society where our police force are keepers of the peace and not an intimditing entity.

But peace has gone with the gang violence, drugs, robberies. So send out a unit to clean it up and let the Guards continue as they are.

Hootanany

Overtime stopped just let out for PR

It wasn't me!

JayEnnis wrote: »

A deterrent is better than a solution.

I'm not sure you understand what those two words mean...

gammygils

Instead of arming Gardai we just leg it!!!

Unregistered.

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

So, you're saying we should create the ERU?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garda_Emergency_Response_Unit

What the OP described is NOT what the ERU do!

JayEnnis

It wasn't me! wrote: »

I'm not sure you understand what those two words mean...

I'm quite aware of what those words mean, a solution to a problem is not needed if the problem doesn't exist in the first place.

starviewadams

Garda numbers and resources have been cut to bits and will be cut further and further,they are doing well to be able to be reactive to crime at this stage,never mind proactive.

Best way to tackle the drugs problem is by legalising certain things to some degree,but that requires vision and a strong political will that never exist in this country,also requires the electorate to not be sheep,which again will never happen in this country.

It wasn't me!

JayEnnis wrote: »

I'm quite aware of what those words mean, a solution to a problem is not needed if the problem doesn't exist in the first place.

A deterrent is a disincentive. It will not stop the problem. It may reduce incidences, depending on effectiveness. The death penalty is a deterrent to committing a capital offence, just not an effective one. What you're looking for is a prophylaxis, which is some sort of magical silver bullet that stops all this in its tracks.

JayEnnis

It wasn't me! wrote: »

A deterrent is a disincentive. It will not stop the problem. It may reduce incidences, depending on effectiveness. The death penalty is a deterrent to committing a capital offence, just not an effective one. What you're looking for is a prophylaxis, which is some sort of magical silver bullet that stops all this in its tracks.

You're being pedantic, of course we aren't going to live in a perfect country with no crime whatsoever but something has to be done. As it stands now the criminal elements in this country can do whatever they please with no repercussions the majority of the time.

AlmightyCushion

Unregistered. wrote: »

What the OP described is NOT what the ERU do!

They're a less mental version of what he described.

ColeTrain

Arpa wrote: »

accompanied with tighter border controls preventing smuggled weapons and drugs will have a significant effect. We are an island after all, the only method of smuggling weapons into this land is by air or sea. It should be attainable.

The government simply do not have the resources to patrol what's smuggled into the country.

Arpa wrote: »

There is a unit in Brazil called BOPE who do exactly this. They are trained rigorously to engage drug gangs and suspected criminals with weapons. They do function primarily in the favellas of Rio which is a far sight different to our country's streets, but if we use an urban military force to put an end to it now then we can reap the rewards for future generations. Also what chance does Deco in Limerick, with his little pistol stand against a trained unit like this. If he's willing to carry a weapon and use it, then he is willing to die. Live by the sword, die by the sword and all that.

The slums in Rio don't compare to Limerick or Dublin. Maybe elite tactical squads will be needed when we see shootouts like the one in Heat occur on a regular basis but until then ERU will do.

68 lost souls

It reminds me of this.

Great TV show

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIVn4tnFTfY

tdv123

Arpa wrote: »

Saw the thread on tough on scumbags was closed, for what reason I don't know, because it was an interesting debate on gun law in Ireland. So, if mods, this sparks something which you deem out of line, so be it...but.....what about this.....

I suggest we need an operation like they have in Brazil or Mexico. Have a tactical armed unit who pro-actively infiltrate, disrupt and eradicate all criminal gangs who they suspect to have firepower.

Not the regular Gardai but a more militarised force. We need to cut the b*stards down before they grow any bigger. This, accompanied with tighter border controls preventing smuggled weapons and drugs will have a significant effect. We are an island after all, the only method of smuggling weapons into this land is by air or sea. It should be attainable.

Over time the supply of illegal weapons will be reduced due to the difficulty over importing them.

A unit with this power will have it's drawbacks. Obviously in the beginning there will be collateral damage and the court cases will run for years, but it is favourable I believe to letting this grow any further than it has done so already.

Now I know we don't have a problem quite as severe as that in the slums of Brazil/Mexico but why wait till then? There is a unit in Brazil called BOPE who do exactly this. They are trained rigorously to engage drug gangs and suspected criminals with weapons. They do function primarily in the favellas of Rio which is a far sight different to our country's streets, but if we use an urban military force to put an end to it now then we can reap the rewards for future generations. Also what chance does Deco in Limerick, with his little pistol stand against a trained unit like this. If he's willing to carry a weapon and use it, then he is willing to die. Live by the sword, die by the sword and all that.

We already have the talent there in the guise of the Rangers, I just think it's time to start using it. And yes for a while it may be intimidating to see black clad tactical teams in our urban areas but once crime has been significantly reduced they could be recinded and put on standby leaving the streets safer for our Gardai to patrol.

Giving the Gardai guns is not the option as it prolongs it - Guards get guns - Criminals get bigger guns and then all is fair in war as both sides will see it. A short burst of agressive action will negate this and allow us to continue as a gun free society.

Yes, because that system has worked perfectly in Mexico. Hardly any crime in that country at all.

Arpa

ColeTrain wrote: »

The slums in Rio don't compare to Limerick or Dublin. Maybe elite tactical squads will be needed when we see shootouts like the one in Heat occur on a regular basis but until then ERU will do.

Okay, so we will wait till they compare with the slums? I'm not talking Hollywood here. I'm suggesting a dedicated force controlled by legislation to move in with force and cut off the supply.
Until the law has the upper hand nothing will do. Why wait any longer?

end of the road

Arpa wrote: »

I suggest we need an operation like they have in Brazil or Mexico. Have a tactical armed unit who pro-actively infiltrate, disrupt and eradicate all criminal gangs who they suspect to have firepower.

we have one, its called the ERU, and you fail to realise that in both Brazil and Mexico once one gang is gone another pops up straight away

Arpa wrote: »

We need to cut the b*stards down before they grow any bigger.

wouldn't achieve anything, once one goes another will pop up

Arpa wrote: »

This, accompanied with tighter border controls preventing smuggled weapons and drugs will have a significant effect.

yeah, it will, shur we only have miles of coastline which such things can get in, unless your going to get everyone to stand side by side at the edge of every cliff and beach? even then it wouldn't be enough people

Arpa wrote: »

We are an island after all, the only method of smuggling weapons into this land is by air or sea. It should be attainable.

exactly, were an island, if they want to get weapons in they will

Arpa wrote: »

Over time the supply of illegal weapons will be reduced due to the difficulty over importing them.

rubbish

Arpa wrote: »

A unit with this power will have it's drawbacks.

yeah, the cost for no benefit

Arpa wrote: »

Obviously in the beginning there will be collateral damage and the court cases will run for years

great, shur its only a bit of collateral damage, shur the court cases will run for years and cost 10 times the amount for the unit itself, never mind the fact were bankrupt

Arpa wrote: »

but it is favourable I believe to letting this grow any further than it has done so already.

it won't, not at this stage, maybe if we had them at the inception of our police force it would have worked once the problem started, however if you want this unit badly enough you and you alone fund it.

Arpa wrote: »

Now I know we don't have a problem quite as severe as that in the slums of Brazil/Mexico

nothing near it, its all media hype

Arpa wrote: »

but why wait till then?

wait till when? the likely hood of us ending up like the slums in these places is very slim

Arpa wrote: »

There is a unit in Brazil called BOPE who do exactly this. They are trained rigorously to engage drug gangs and suspected criminals with weapons.

just like the ERU

Arpa wrote: »

They do function primarily in the favellas of Rio which is a far sight different to our country's streets, but if we use an urban military force to put an end to it now then we can reap the rewards for future generations.

what rewards? massive amounts of money being spent on these armed units your proposing yet the weapons are still getting in?

Arpa wrote: »

Also what chance does Deco in Limerick, with his little pistol stand against a trained unit like this. If he's willing to carry a weapon and use it, then he is willing to die. Live by the sword, die by the sword and all that.

maybe decko in limerick will go for grenades instead?

Arpa wrote: »

once crime has been significantly reduced

it won't

Arpa wrote: »

A short burst of agressive action will negate this and allow us to continue as a gun free society.

no, it won't, absolute rubbish, all it will do is get rid of one for a week and then when their busy stopping one somewhere else another gang will have popped up in the place the unit was before

JayEnnis

tdv123 wrote: »

Yes, because that system has worked perfectly in Mexico. Hardly any crime in that country at all.

There's never going to be an end to drug violence until recreational drugs are legalised.

ColeTrain

Arpa wrote: »

Okay, so we will wait till they compare with the slums? I'm not talking Hollywood here. I'm suggesting a dedicated force controlled by legislation to move in with force and cut off the supply.
Until the law has the upper hand nothing will do. Why wait any longer?

I don't get what you want this dedicated force to do exactly?

At the moment Gardai gather evidence and try to arrest people. Do you want them kicking down doors and shooting people because they suspect they have a weapon or are in the drugs game?

spoonfed

tdv123 wrote: »

Yes, because that system has worked perfectly in Mexico. Hardly any crime in that country at all.

Just what this cuntry needs is chainsaw beheadings! :rolleyes:

tdv123

JayEnnis wrote: »

There's never going to be an end to drug violence until recreational drugs are legalised.

Unless you take "bathsalts" & start eating homeless people's faces.

Arpa

tdv123 wrote: »

Yes, because that system has worked perfectly in Mexico. Hardly any crime in that country at all.

That's a gross over-simplification. Consider the size of Mexico compared to Ireland. Consider the poverty status in South America whereby it is seen as acceptable to produce drugs as a means to an end for a family to survive.

In Limerick and Dublin it's a different story.
There is no production of drugs on this island of any sizeable note.
The size of our population puts us in the advantageous position of eradicating the posession of drugs and weapons. Taking one scumbag to court for transporting cocaine in his Mitsubishi is not going to do anything. Another scumbag will take his place.

Let a dedicated narcotics and firearm force go in strong on all these gangs, shut down connections and then step back to let the Gardai continue as normal unarmed without fear.

ColeTrain

JayEnnis wrote: »

There's never going to be an end to drug violence until recreational drugs are legalised.

Agreed. The solution is simple but most would rather Garda death squads roaming our country than let someone buy some weed legally.

spoonfed

Arpa wrote: »

That's a gross over-simplification. Consider the size of Mexico compared to Ireland. Consider the poverty status in South America whereby it is seen as acceptable to produce drugs as a means to an end for a family to survive.

In Limerick and Dublin it's a different story.
There is no production of drugs on this island of any sizeable note.
The size of our population puts us in the advantageous position of eradicating the posession of drugs and weapons. Taking one scumbag to court for transporting cocaine in his Mitsubishi is not going to do anything. Another scumbag will take his place.

Let a dedicated narcotics and firearm force go in strong on all these gangs, shut down connections and then step back to let the Gardai continue as normal unarmed without fear.

If you think for one second that weapons and especially drugs can be completely eradicated, then you are proving your absolute lack of intelligence and mindblowing ignorance and your posts regarding this subject should just be disregarded as nonsense!

666irishguy

I think the Guards need to be not only armed, but given better powers for surveillance and detention etc. All criminals with a certain amount or type of convictions should be tagged with a GPS tracker. Couple that with harder prison systems and you will see a drop in crime.

Arpa

spoonfed wrote: »

If you think for one second that weapons and especially drugs can be completely eradicated, then you are proving your absolute lack of intelligence and mindblowing ignorance and your posts regarding this subject should just be disregarded as nonsense!

Mate...seriously? Finish that beer and off to bed with ya.

spoonfed

Arpa wrote: »

Mate...seriously?

Absolutely homeslice

Overheal

Arpa wrote:

I suggest we need an operation like they have in Brazil or Mexico. Have a tactical armed unit who pro-actively infiltrate, disrupt and eradicate all criminal gangs who they suspect to have firepower.

Obviously you have no idea what the situation is in mexico. they have serious gang violence issues, and political assassinations by cartels. Mexico isn't a model of doing things right.

token101

It's amazing the ridiculous suggestions that come out after the country gets a shock. BOPE for Dublin? :pac:

A Garda getting murdered in this fashion is extremely rare, it doesn't require an OTT response. It's a horrific thing to happen and very tragic but at a guess I would imagine this Detective Garda was armed, as far as I know detective units are. Obviously this all total speculation and guesswork because I'm no expert, but it seems a bit strange from reading that he approached four armed men on his own and I'd wonder if he was wearing a vest to protect himself. That should be the first thing to be looked, procedural things. I doubt we need militarised squads in Ireland, I'd guess it's probably the Gardai need just some relatively small changes and probably more resources.

token101

spoonfed wrote: »

If you think for one second that weapons and especially drugs can be completely eradicated, then you are proving your absolute lack of intelligence and mindblowing ignorance and your posts regarding this subject should just be disregarded as nonsense!

You know what though? They could probably make a huge dent in it by legalising drugs and spending all the money they spent on stopping supply on education and rehab facilities. It would drain these gangs of their biggest revenue source instantly. I used to be the first to say that legalising drugs would be a disaster but the more you think about it and see more and more senior figures from every single corner of society saying drugs prohibition will never work, it has to be the way to go.

spoonfed

token101 wrote: »

You know what though? They could probably make a huge dent in it by legalising drugs and spending all the money they spent on stopping supply on education and rehab facilities. It would drain these gangs of their biggest revenue source instantly. I used to be the first to say that legalising drugs would be a disaster but the more you think about it and see more and more senior figures from every single corner of society saying drugs prohibition will never work, it has to be the way to go.

The war on drugs just simply does not work, and that is a proven fact. Unfortunately there are still alot of people brainwashed into thinking the opposite.

tdv123

Arpa wrote: »

That's a gross over-simplification. Consider the size of Mexico compared to Ireland. Consider the poverty status in South America whereby it is seen as acceptable to produce drugs as a means to an end for a family to survive.

In Limerick and Dublin it's a different story.
There is no production of drugs on this island of any sizeable note.
The size of our population puts us in the advantageous position of eradicating the posession of drugs and weapons. Taking one scumbag to court for transporting cocaine in his Mitsubishi is not going to do anything. Another scumbag will take his place.

Let a dedicated narcotics and firearm force go in strong on all these gangs, shut down connections and then step back to let the Gardai continue as normal unarmed without fear.

How are they suppose to get the source of information to go ahead with this approach exactly? Do they just start shooting at people who they believe but have no evidence to prove there criminals?

Gangs/Drugs aren't a big problem here anyway. It's very rare for any civilians to be harmed by these "gangs". Most of the Kingpins here would be small timers in most other countries.

Paddy Cow

Arpa wrote: »

Let a dedicated narcotics and firearm force go in strong on all these gangs, shut down connections and then step back to let the Gardai continue as normal unarmed without fear.

Too much accountability and the bleeding heart liberals would kick up a stink about their human rights. It would be more realistic to hire the A-Team to come in and eradicate them.

Grayson

I for one welcome this new police unit. It'll make swatting a lot funnier.

Especially after I give them the OP's address.

TwoShedsJackson

tdv123 wrote: »

Yes, because that system has worked perfectly in Mexico. Hardly any crime in that country at all.

You forgot to mention what a crime-free paradise Brazil is.

yermanoffthetv

Duties

The Emergency Response Unit is responsible for handling the following operations in service of the Garda Síochána:[3][4]

1. Armed response in anti-criminal/subversive operations
2. Implementation of search techniques, including use of forced entry
3. Execution of high-risk warrants
4. VIP Protection
5. Provide specialist patrols as directed
6. Provide ground and air regional patrols
7. Hostage rescue

So OP what duties would your death squad militarised force undertake that the Navy ERU RSU and armed detectives dont do already?

kraggy

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

So, you're saying we should create the ERU?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garda_Emergency_Response_Unit

In fairness to the OP, the ERU is exactly that, a RESPONSE unit.

In South America they have units who proactively go in and cleanse an area of criminals and their weaponry.

What we need are tougher laws that give the Gardai more power to go in and search houses and vehicles if theres even a sniff of illegal goings on occurring.

Also linked to this is the illegality of drugs. There's too much money to be made by gangs to stop killing.

Grayson

So your saying we should legalise drugs (Not all but some of their biggest revenue generators)?

Witcher

kraggy wrote: »

In fairness to the OP, the ERU is exactly that, a RESPONSE unit.

In South America they have units who proactively go in and cleanse an area of criminals and their weaponry.

What we need are tougher laws that give the Gardai more power to go in and search houses and vehicles if theres even a sniff of illegal goings on occurring.

Also linked to this is the illegality of drugs. There's too much money to be made by gangs to stop killing.

They already raid buildings used by gangs...the problem is finding them, they're not exactly signposted.

kraggy

Overheal wrote: »

Obviously you have no idea what the situation is in mexico. they have serious gang violence issues, and political assassinations by cartels. Mexico isn't a model of doing things right.

Much of that is to do with low paid police officers taking bribes and turning a blond eye to criminality.

If the cuts continue to affect the Gardai's ability to fight crime then morale in the Irish police force may stoop so low that corruption here will get worse thereby making bribes from gangs to Gardai more likely. Which in turn exacerbates the gang situation by increasing their power further.

earlyevening

But the garda that was shot last night WAS armed. He didn't get his gun out in time apparantly.