Croke Park II preliminary Talks started today

Godge · 25-01-2013 04:30PM

jh79 wrote: »

Increments as we presently have them are plain wrong

Pay rise / increment is just a play on words

Pay increment:

noun
a regular automatic increase in salary

http://www.investorwords.com/10008/increment.html

Pay rise is something different. Not regular, not automatic. Not just a play on words, a different concept, well established in HR terms for nearly two centuries.

Godge · 25-01-2013 04:31PM

woodoo wrote: »

I see the Guards have decided CPA2 is not for them.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0125/364397-agsi-croke-park/

That throws a spanner in the works. Maybe they are just setting out their stall and hope to get invited back in.

jh79 wrote: »

Can't decide which side this benefits.

Don't know either but I was predicting something like this about 30 pages earlier and either yesterday or the day before.

25-01-2013 04:56PM

Godge wrote: »

Pay increment:
noun
a regular automatic increase in salary

http://www.investorwords.com/10008/increment.html

Pay rise is something different. Not regular, not automatic. Not just a play on words, a different concept, well established in HR terms for nearly two centuries.

Never had them in any of my contracts

Your being pedantic it is an increase in earnings without any real justification

kippy · 25-01-2013 04:59PM

jh79 wrote: »

Never had them in any of my contracts

Your being pedantic it is an increase in earnings without any real justification

Technically they are part of your contract. (ie, it is not just a random sum added to your earnings for all of eternity)
The figures and indeed durations are set up, perhaps not in a PS contract but in a document linked to it.
Your contract states a salary scale. They are SUPPOSED to be performance related (and this, in my opinion, is where the real problem lies)

Boombastic · 25-01-2013 05:01PM

frankosw wrote: »

So people should start on 22k and stay on 22k forever?

Where are you gonna get people stupid enough to sign up for jobs like that?

They're not starting on €22,000, when allowances are added in closer to €27,000

kippy · 25-01-2013 05:04PM

Boombastic wrote: »

They're not starting on €22,000, when allowances are added in closer to €27,000

What allowances are you talking about?

People seem to think that EVERY member of the public service gets "allowances".
It's plainly not true.

Boombastic · 25-01-2013 05:25PM

kippy wrote: »

What allowances are you talking about?

People seem to think that EVERY member of the public service gets "allowances".
It's plainly not true.

That figure is for the nurses starting out on '€22,000 ' - when the allowance for shift work/unsociable hours and working in a department for instance A&E (and most others), the figure they are actually earning is closer to €27,000.

I realise you may not have meant the nurses specifically, but mostly when report public sector wages do not include allowances and other remuneration which are important to give a true representation of actual wages.

I agree with you regarding people not signing up for jobs for €22,000 for ever, but they should be able to justify increases and increments and their value to the department.

If you are productive and contributing, you earn the rise, if you are not, you don't - they shouldn't just be handed out to everyone

Increments are payrises

Itchianus · 25-01-2013 05:56PM

Boombastic wrote: »

Increments are payrises

Sorry that is simply not correct.

Incremental pay scales are common in large organisations both public & private sector all around the world. The employment contract states when and by how much salary increases IN INCREMENTS.

Look at the reports about the staff of Dunnes Stores earlier this week - they operate an incremental pay scale based on length of service - what the PAY RISE means is that every INCREMENTAL point on the salary scale is increased.

Hopefully that clears it up for you. Increments are a part of the employment contract, pay rises are not.

Don't get me wrong though, I have serious issues with the fact that some of my colleagues may be getting their increments undeservedly, but that is an entirely different issue.

itzme · 25-01-2013 06:17PM

Boombastic wrote: »

That figure is for the nurses starting out on '€22,000 ' - when the allowance for shift work/unsociable hours and working in a department for instance A&E (and most others), the figure they are actually earning is closer to €27,000.

You have a point here alright, do you have any source for the allowances and their totals. By the way I'm not doubting you at all, a quick search agreed with you just looking for the details.
The gist of your point on this is spot on, if some allowances are core pay (as has been put forward by the unions) then those that are should be reported and included when talking about the salary for the position.

Boombastic · 25-01-2013 06:28PM

itzme wrote: »

You have a point here alright, do you have any source for the allowances and their totals. By the way I'm not doubting you at all, a quick search agreed with you just looking for the details.
The gist of your point on this is spot on, if some allowances are core pay (as has been put forward by the unions) then those that are should be reported and included when talking about the salary for the position.

@ Itchianus I understand the difference between increments and pay rises, but at the end of the day they are both increases in pay, just under different names. They should not be automatic.

Here's link to allowances from the imno

management sub-structures– special allowance for weekends/public holidays
Employed on duties in the following locations: Accident & Emergency Depts....

itzme · 25-01-2013 06:31PM

Boombastic wrote: »

I understand the difference between increments and pay rises, but at the end of the day they are both increases in pay, just under different names. They should not be automatic.

Here's link to allowances from the imno

www.inmo.ie/other_allowances_2010"]Nurse management sub-structures[/URL] – special allowance for weekends/public holidays
Employed on duties in the following locations: Accident & Emergency Depts....

Assuming the first half of that is for Itchianus

Thanks for the links.

woodoo · 25-01-2013 07:59PM

jh79 wrote: »

Your being pedantic it is an increase in earnings without any real justification

Why do people automatically think they are getting something they are not deserving of. It was decided to pay staff on an incremental scale rather than just a set amount that doesn't change. Why is it assumed that in the absence of the incremental scale staff would make do with the bottom of the scale. People take on the job with the full scale in mind.

If a company was to decided to create a role in their company for say a bookkeeper and they decide to use the incremental scale. So year one it is agree to pay €30,000, year two €31000 and then year three €32000, from year 4 on it will stay at €32,000 unless a general pay-rise is implemented. In a non incremental option they could choose to pay€31,925 every year. Both methods cost the same over a 40 year period.

Why do people assume that if no incremental scale was used that people would only be paid €30,000. In the example i used above the vast majority of the time in the role will be paid at €32,000 so this is obviously the amount the company deemed suitable for an experienced bookkeeper. The non incremental option would have just paid them at 31,925. Both methods would have costed the company the same overall.

In my job the bottom of the scale is nowhere near enough money for what i do. I accepted the job because of the final salary at the top of the scale. Even though it would take me a number of years to get there. If they stopped my increments halfway up the scale then they have reneged on my contract and are not paying me what we both agreed the day i was hired provided i preform as desired.

squod · 25-01-2013 08:18PM

woodoo wrote: »

Why do people automatically think they are getting something they are not deserving of. .................provided i preform as desired

Presume that's what jh79 meant. Provided you perform.

Boombastic · 25-01-2013 08:29PM

woodoo wrote: »

Why do people automatically think they are getting something they are not deserving of. It was decided to pay staff on an incremental scale rather than just a set amount that doesn't change. Why is it assumed that in the absence of the incremental scale staff would make do with the bottom of the scale. People take on the job with the full scale in mind......................................

How are they deserving it? by managing to not be fired? Increments are automatic and they should not be. Nobody assumes that people would make do with the bottom of the scale forever, but they could improve their skills and add value to their role. Differentiate themselves in some way to earn their increments.

tayto lover · 25-01-2013 08:38PM

Do the Public Sector receive little extras during the year like Turkeys and Hams at Christmas, or an extra weeks wages at holiday times?
I have received things like this all through my working life. Just interested.

Pappa Charlie · 25-01-2013 08:44PM

tayto lover wrote: »

Do the Public Sector receive little extras during the year like Turkeys and Hams at Christmas, or an extra weeks wages at holiday times?
I have received things like this all through my working life. Just interested.

I once got a headbutt on Christmas Eve! And the prick told me " I pay your wages" That's about all!

Boombastic · 25-01-2013 08:47PM

tayto lover wrote: »

Do the Public Sector receive little extras during the year like Turkeys and Hams at Christmas, or an extra weeks wages at holiday times?
I have received things like this all through my working life. Just interested.

Some departments get off at 11am the day they are taking their Christmas holidays for cocktails in the office and paid to attend their christmas parties

others get free cups of coffee

Others gets presents off their students

There is probably more perks, I just can't think of at the moment

woodoo · 25-01-2013 08:57PM

Boombastic wrote: »

How are they deserving it? by managing to not be fired? Increments are automatic and they should not be. Nobody assumes that people would make do with the bottom of the scale forever, but they could improve their skills and add value to their role. Differentiate themselves in some way to earn their increments.

If they satisfy the criteria on their contract they should get their increments.

If people are under-preforming then there is a case to not pay increments. My point is in relation to the call to do away with increments.

Boombastic · 25-01-2013 09:01PM

woodoo wrote: »

If they satisfy the criteria on their contract they should get their increments.

If people are under-preforming then there is a case to not pay increments. My point is in relation to the call to do away with increments.

They should be done away with, unless you are over performing.

Under-performing or just performing are not good enough. Many of the services we are paying for are in disarray, with waiting lists growing by the day. Croke Park 1 was supposed to deliver more productivity. Maybe this has happened is some offices, but there are a large number of places where it has not.

25-01-2013 09:01PM

woodoo wrote: »

If they satisfy the criteria on their contract they should get their increments.

If people are under-preforming then there is a case to not pay increments. My point is in relation to the call to do away with increments.

The criteria is set at such a low bar, 96% get their increments can you with a straight face say they all deserved it

woodoo · 25-01-2013 09:05PM

Boombastic wrote: »

They should be done away with, unless you are over performing..

If you preform as was requested of you in your contract then you should get them. Unless contracts don't matter to you.

woodoo · 25-01-2013 09:06PM

jh79 wrote: »

The criteria is set at such a low bar, 96% get their increments can you with a straight face say they all deserved it

Well if that is the case it is too late to change that without agreement. They can make new contracts for new staff with a tougher bar if they want.

25-01-2013 09:07PM

jh79 wrote: »

The criteria is set at such a low bar, 96% get their increments can you with a straight face say they all deserved it

This figure might be off but on the same edition of the frontline private sector equivalent was in the 60'S the union guy came across as an idiot trying to defend it

25-01-2013 09:08PM

woodoo wrote: »

Well if that is the case it is too late to change that without agreement. They can make new contracts for new staff with a tougher bar if they want.

Why is it too late? If wages can go up they can go down

Boombastic · 25-01-2013 09:11PM

woodoo wrote: »

Well if that is the case it is too late to change that without agreement. They can make new contracts for new staff with a tougher bar if they want.

Time to re-draft all contracts, remove increments and stop sending the new recruits to the slaughter..or are the public sector not willing to reform:eek:?

The burden should be shared equally.

woodoo · 25-01-2013 09:16PM

jh79 wrote: »

Why is it too late? If wages can go up they can go down

Breaking the pay structure may not be the same as a percentage pay cut. I would like to see it tested in court if it happens. Two people on the same contract being treated differently.

woodoo · 25-01-2013 09:16PM

Boombastic wrote: »

Time to re-draft all contracts, remove increments and stop sending the new recruits to the slaughter..or are the public sector not willing to reform:eek:?

The burden should be shared equally.

Would the existing staff sign though.

25-01-2013 09:18PM

woodoo wrote: »

Would the existing staff sign though.

Of course they would they wouldn't get better anywhere else

fall · 25-01-2013 09:24PM

It takes 25 years to reach the top of the incremental scale in secondary teaching as an example. Every year you teach and gain experience your responsibilities grow eg you become a tutor. This means as well teaching, preparing, correcting and dealing with discipline issues of your timetabled classes you are the liaison person between tutor and year head for a group of thirty students. you are not allocated any additional time to do this. You intervene in discipline issues and manage all records for that group of students. This can include reports four times a year, meetings with parents, social workers etc and all day to day issues that 30 teenagers will present with.
Most teachers will also engage in extra curricular activities as well like sports, musicals, trips abroad etc.. In an average day a teacher will engage with over one hundred students and be expected to meet their individual educational needs and be answerable to them and their parents.
There are some bad teachers and I think it should be easier to get rid of them but I also think the teaching profession should attract high quality people and this requires attractive remuneration.

25-01-2013 09:24PM

woodoo wrote: »

Would the existing staff sign though.

If the grass is greener why stay with the PS

Croke Park II preliminary Talks started today

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