Croke Park II preliminary Talks started today

Godge · 25-01-2013 03:22PM

noodler wrote: »

Don't forget many public servants will have seen their wage (net of the levy and cuts) increase between 2007-2012 due to increments.

.

We have been through this, unless you were recruited as an Administrative Officer, this is highly unlikely.

fliball123 · 25-01-2013 03:22PM

frankosw wrote: »

It will also bring down the spending power of 340,000 people so private businesses will suffer.

100 euro per month less for each of these people will cost the private sector 34 million in potential lost revenue...per month.

Didnt think of that did you?

Frank and converse of that is if it doesn't come from the public sector then the spending power of 1.8 million tax payers will come down or the 1/2 a million on the dole. So your argument does not hold water I am afraid

tayto lover · 25-01-2013 03:23PM

fliball123 wrote: »

See this is a joke do you not realise for every penny not saved on the spend side will have to be got in tax. FFS will you please wake up to this we all have those things at least you know you have your job , pension and hopefully a cut to your wage coming up but you should be thankful for what you get.

Nobody can feed their kids or pay their bills with "thanks". It takes money to do that. Go into your local shop, order a few groceries and then say thanks and walk out. See how far you get.

Itchianus · 25-01-2013 03:23PM

jh79 wrote: »

Jobs in the public sector are always in demand, this idea that it is some sort of altruistic vocation is insulting, good paid and conditions, increments, pension and no genuine performance appraisals.

Again , "normal wage" is a matter of opinion.

The problem with your attitude though, based on the tone of the above, is that you seem to be suggesting that jobs in the public sector should not have good pay, conditions, pension, and should not be in demand?!

itzme · 25-01-2013 03:24PM

noodler wrote: »

We had to borrow over 15bn last year to fund public services and are going through the country's worst employment crisis in decades.

Just wondering when you say public services here what do you mean? PS pay, PS pay and pensions, PS pay and pensions and social welfare (my guess)...
It's just while I don't doubt the figure or that it is used for public services, without clarification soon enough it'll be thrown around on these boards as a reason to cut just the PS pay and pensions bill.

25-01-2013 03:24PM

Godge wrote: »

We have been through this, unless you were recruited as an Administrative Officer, this is highly unlikely.

Doesn't change the sentiment that increments are plain wrong

fliball123 · 25-01-2013 03:25PM

tayto lover wrote: »

Nobody can feed their kids or pay their bills with "thanks". It takes money to do that. Go into your local shop, order a few groceries and then say thanks and walk out. See how far you get.

So the PS are the only one with bills this argument is ridiculous. We all have bills and you guys are pointing the finger for cuts to the dole before you have your cuts...Give me a break

tayto lover · 25-01-2013 03:26PM

fliball123 wrote: »

Go for it and you will have drive by buckets of piss thrown at you. If you do strike I hope the gov get in people in to positions that are needed short term I would even pay double my tax to break the unions. They have acted with any remorse for the new PS that are to employed and they show absolutely no recognition of how bad a position the country is in.

I am in the Private Sector and I would applaud them as would many of my friends and workmates.
I would love to see a General Strike but a Public Sector one will do.
We are on the road to ruin anyway as our politicians are afraid to stand up to their European masters.

frankosw · 25-01-2013 03:26PM

jh79 wrote: »

Doesn't change the sentiment that increments are plain wrong

So people should start on 22k and stay on 22k forever?

Where are you gonna get people stupid enough to sign up for jobs like that?

Godge · 25-01-2013 03:27PM

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

However If I stated that I could be told that it is all made up by the way I find no reason to disbelieve him even though we have no link to prove it.:)

no, but I am sure that if you searched on the commision for public service appointments website you will find information and data about those that applied for jobs in the public service and you could prove/disprove him.

P.S. I never commented on whether his figures were accurate or whether they should be taken as gospel, I just pointed out that there was no breach of data protection legislation which had got some people up on their high horse.

fliball123 · 25-01-2013 03:29PM

tayto lover wrote: »

I am in the Private Sector and I would applaud them as would many of my friends and workmates.
I would love to see a General Strike but a Public Sector one will do.
We are on the road to ruin anyway as our politicians are afraid to stand up to their European masters.

Our euro masters as you call them have bailed us out year in year out for the last 5 years and are laughing at us when we ask for a deal on bank debt and point to the levels of social welfare, ps pay and pensions in the country. So you would applaud the country being brought to a standstill I think you will be very much in a majority

Celticfire · 25-01-2013 03:29PM

fliball123 wrote: »

What so you guys can threaten but we cant is that the way it is..And my chant is I have given in tax rises for the last 5 years...No more from me till you get some downward movement from the spend side

Who's threatening you? Strike action is legal, throwing your piss over some isn't.
You're a big mouth on an Internet forum and I'd bet the house you wouldn't have the balls to say boo if it came down to it.

You pay no more taxes than I do. As Godge has said and shown here many many times to his credit spend is going down. You just refuse to listen.

You spout the same shi*e over and over and over........

frankosw · 25-01-2013 03:30PM

fliball123 wrote: »

So the PS are the only one with bills this argument is ridiculous. We all have bills and you guys are pointing the finger for cuts to the dole before you have your cuts...Give me a break

The difference is that the PS get paid for doing a job..the people on the dole get paid for not doing a job,in addition the people working in the PS pay for the dole from thier own pockets.

The net return from the PS is that the counrty has public services..the net return from the dole is that the country has a lot of people doing nothing at everybody else's expense.

fliball123 · 25-01-2013 03:30PM

frankosw wrote: »

So people should start on 22k and stay on 22k forever?

Where are you gonna get people stupid enough to sign up for jobs like that?

No but they should only be rewarded if they are doing a good job Frank no more just for length of service and no pay rises or increments while the country is borrowing 2 million an hour.

Itchianus · 25-01-2013 03:31PM

jh79 wrote: »

Doesn't change the sentiment that increments are plain wrong

Ok, care to offer an alternative so?

tayto lover · 25-01-2013 03:32PM

fliball123 wrote: »

So the PS are the only one with bills this argument is ridiculous. We all have bills and you guys are pointing the finger for cuts to the dole before you have your cuts...Give me a break

I am a Private Sector worker.
Do you not think our bosses will not cut wages and point to Public Sector cuts in time if this is passed or are you totally delusional?
I never pointed to dole cuts anywhere.

tayto lover · 25-01-2013 03:33PM

fliball123 wrote: »

Our euro masters as you call them have bailed us out year in year out for the last 5 years and are laughing at us when we ask for a deal on bank debt and point to the levels of social welfare, ps pay and pensions in the country. So you would applaud the country being brought to a standstill I think you will be very much in a majority

I have it now. You must be a bondholder.

Now i'm off to the pub (finished early today) for a few pints. Wonder if i'll get them for nothing Firi?

fliball123 · 25-01-2013 03:35PM

Celticfire wrote: »

Who's threatening you? Strike action is legal, throwing your piss over some isn't.
You're a big mouth on an Internet forum and I'd bet the house you wouldn't have the balls to say boo if it came down to it.

You pay no more taxes than I do. As Godge has said and shown here many many times to his credit spend is going down. You just refuse to listen.

You spout the same shi*e over and over and over........

You dont know me so dont be making assumptions. Yourself and Frank are ones on here doing the baiting for me to invite a post that will get me barred. I have simply said that for every penny not saved on the spend side has to be got through taxes. When the property tax and the rise in taxes over the next 2 years kick in with both direct and indirect taxes we will be top of the OCED charts for paying and in return for these taxes we will have a public sector which is not fit for purpose and a ever expanding welfare state. At some point and its coming, taxes will stop bringing an increase to revenue of the state and we will be there (IMO) when the property tax comes in. What are we going to then?

25-01-2013 03:35PM

Itchianus wrote: »

The problem with your attitude though, based on the tone of the above, is that you seem to be suggesting that jobs in the public sector should not have good pay, conditions, pension, and should not be in demand?!

That was in response to frank making out public servants to be martyrs. I have continuously said that it should be in line as much as possible with the private sector equivalent.

I personally think admin grades such as CO and EO are overpaid. Told from friends there are a lot of management positions that shouldn't really exist.
Teachers are overpaid too in my opinion.
Gardaí, wouldn't know how to judge that to be honest you couldn't pay me enough.
Nurses are about right with the new scale when compared to graduates in the private sector.

No idea what this would save but it is more about what I perceive to be fair than the economics to me.

25-01-2013 03:39PM

Itchianus wrote: »

Ok, care to offer an alternative so?

Pay rises on merit?

Increments are hardly earned when everyone that's is eligible gets one.

noodler · 25-01-2013 03:42PM

Godge wrote: »

There was a link in my post to the website maintained by the Irish National Organisation of the Unemployed who had obtained the 2010 and 2011 figures from the Department of Social Protection. I have no reason to doubt their accuracy. I extraplolated four year figures from them, applied a favourable assumption that all redundancies were compulsory and could still only come up to 11%.

Under an amendment to the Redundancy Payments Act, those on contract are also entitled to statutory redundancy and under the Fixed Term Act are entitled to the same treatment as permanent staff and get the same amount of ex-gratia redundancy. There was a case involving a university not so long ago that proved this - I will see can I find the details if I remember which one.

Have you seen the actual real figures for 2007-2012 now that I have posted them twice?

It is a much better starting place for any estimate.

To summarise:

So there has been a reduction in Private sector employment by 292,300 and there have been 284,632 redundancy applications.

Now as you say there could be some people in there were redundant more than once but still it still seems to me that compulsory redundancies were pretty much a standard part of the loss of jobs over the period.

K-9 · 25-01-2013 03:46PM

fliball123 and frankosw are both banned.

Everybody else get back on topic, this isn't thread to have a rant about welfare or bondholders, the forum expects you to put a bit of thought into your replies not go on a Liveline rant. Think before you post, if somebody posts a rant you don't have to rant back.

noodler · 25-01-2013 03:47PM

itzme wrote: »

Just wondering when you say public services here what do you mean? PS pay, PS pay and pensions, PS pay and pensions and social welfare (my guess)...
It's just while I don't doubt the figure or that it is used for public services, without clarification soon enough it'll be thrown around on these boards as a reason to cut just the PS pay and pensions bill.

Sorry missed your post.

The figure of 15bn is available in any of a number of budget documents on the DoF webpage.

The January Exchequer Figures
The Budget 2013 Economic and Fiscal Outlook

It includes substantial interest payments on our national debt of 6.5bn.

itzme · 25-01-2013 04:01PM

noodler wrote: »

Sorry missed your post.

The figure of 15bn is available in any of a number of budget documents on the DoF webpage.

The January Exchequer Figures
The Budget 2013 Economic and Fiscal Outlook

It includes substantial interest payments on our national debt of 6.5bn.

Ok I'll go and take a look when I get a chance thanks.
You have answered part of what I mean though, what I'm interested in is a breakdown of where the €15bn is going. As in, I keep reading that €2mn an hour is being borrowed to keep the public sector running from a certain poster. So it would seem €1.7mn an hour is being borrowed not €2mn and that is for everything, PS Pay, PS Pensions, Social Welfare, Interest Payments? Does it include Promissory notes?
I'm sure you can see where I'm coming from this, what amount of the 15bn is actually being used to and to what degree fund the different elements of public services?

Itchianus · 25-01-2013 04:02PM

jh79 wrote: »

Increments are hardly earned when everyone that's is eligible gets one.

That is quite a different statement to saying increments are just plain wrong.

I agree with the sentence quoted in this post, but there is a substantial difference between a pay rise and an increment.

noodler · 25-01-2013 04:03PM

Godge wrote: »

Ok, thanks for the statistics. What they show is that over a period of six years, there have been 15.4% of private sector jobs made compulsorily redundant. That is still a long way from the widespread 20-30% and over that period of time, some of those must be double-counting people who were made redundant more than once.

By the way, as fixed-term workers in the public sector have been getting statutory redundancy, they are also included and should reduce the 15.4% but I will not quibble with that.

Of course, if you want to reach the 20-30%, you could extend it out to twenty years.

Apologies Godge I missed this post.

I never said 20-30%.

Although how are you calculating 15%? I am having a bit of a brain freeze.

Do you have an issue with me including 2007-2012 figures?

tayto lover wrote: »

1. It does not matter about numbers if your mortgage and bills are based on your wages of a few years ago.

This is not an argument.

Private sector bosses did not care that people had overextended themselves during the boom years when it came to making people redundant.

tayto lover wrote: »

The debt repayment has taken so much out of the coffers of the workers that the deficit and debt at the moment are tied together. Regardless of which it is the people are asked and required to pay it.

Only about a third of the interest we pay on debt.

Godge wrote: »

Trainee accountants, not fully-qualified accountants.

These are fully-qualified nurses we are talking about.

Not that I see anything wrong with what the HSE are doing.

The original complaints on the show were the host being amazed that somebody could finish a four degree and start on 22K.

25-01-2013 04:04PM

Itchianus wrote: »

That is quite a different statement to saying increments are just plain wrong.

I agree with the sentence quoted in this post, but there is a substantial difference between a pay rise and an increment.

Increments as we presently have them are plain wrong

Pay rise / increment is just a play on words

Godge · 25-01-2013 04:24PM

noodler wrote: »

Apologies Godge I missed this post.

I never said 20-30%.

Although how are you calculating 15%? I am having a bit of a brain freeze.

Do you have an issue with me including 2007-2012 figures?

.

The 15% came from totalling up the 2007-2012 figures you provided and dividing by the 2007 peak private sector employment number you provided to get a figure (check them for me if you like)

The point about 2007-2012 is that the longer the period you look at the more redundancies you will find. Eventually you will reach a stage where the number of redundancies is as many as the number of persons employed (might take 50-60 years but it would eventually happen) which means even what we are looking at now is difficult to interpret.

May not have been you but someone (possibly Tim Robbins) spoke about 20-30% compulsory redundancy being common in the private sector. He didn't define if he meant since the start of the bust or in any one year but the figures do not bear that up.

noodler wrote: »

The original complaints on the show were the host being amazed that somebody could finish a four degree and start on 22K.

If he was amazed at that, what would he think of administrative officers who start on €29,922.

http://per.gov.ie/wp-content/uploads/circ182010.pdf

woodoo · 25-01-2013 04:25PM

I see the Guards have decided CPA2 is not for them.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0125/364397-agsi-croke-park/

That throws a spanner in the works. Maybe they are just setting out their stall and hope to get invited back in.

25-01-2013 04:26PM

woodoo wrote: »

I see the Guards have decided CPA2 is not for them.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0125/364397-agsi-croke-park/

That throws a spanner in the works. Maybe they are just setting out their stall and hope to get invited back in.

Can't decide which side this benefits.

Croke Park II preliminary Talks started today

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