Croke Park II preliminary Talks started today

noodler · 25-01-2013 02:24PM

sarumite wrote: »

2008 and 2009 were by far the worst years for rising unemployment. By the end of 2009 (start of 2010) the rate by which unemployment was increasing had somewhat levelled off. I am not saying this automatically translates to redundancies, however it does show that those two years were dynamically very different to 2010 onwards. Using 2010 and 2011 figures and choosing a period towards the end of 2008 rather than the start of 2008 could give inaccurate figures for redundancy.

Godge,

I have found the redundancy statistics on the Social Protection page. Awfully poor layout.
http://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/Actual-Redundancies---General-Statistics.aspx

2007:25,459
2008: 40,607
2009: 77,001
2010: 58,731
2011: 49,762
2012: 33,072

Okay, a grand total of 284,632.

2168600 = peak employment in 2007
1841300 = employment now

Minus out 330,000 Public sector in 2007 gives us 1838600 priavte sector workers
Minus out 295,000 (?) Public sector workers now gives us 1546300 private sector workers

So there has been a reduction in Private sector employment by 292,300 and there have been 284,632 redundancy applications.

Posted this about an hour ago but it seems to have gotten lost in the traffic.

noodler · 25-01-2013 02:26PM

tayto lover wrote: »

Some of them say their wages are down 17 to 20%

Thats higher than average, if your cut was that high (incl Pension Levy) then you were on a higher wage,

Don't forget many public servants will have seen their wage (net of the levy and cuts) increase between 2007-2012 due to increments.

tayto lover wrote: »

We did pay back billions that were not Irish debts at all.
Let them take it out of that.

That doesn't make any sense and shows a complete lack of understanding between deficit and debt.

If we take away all the banking debt - we will still need to borrow 15bn euros this year to fund public services.

road_high · 25-01-2013 02:27PM

noodler wrote: »

Thats higher than average, if your cut was that high (incl Pension Levy) then you were on a higher wage,

That doesn't make any sense and shows a complete lack of understanding between deficit and debt.

If we take away all the banking debt - we will still need to borrow 15bn euros this year to fund public services.

The inconvenient truth I'm afraid!

frankosw · 25-01-2013 02:32PM

jh79 wrote: »

Why should my tax contribution not be spent as wisely as possible

because this is ireland remember..they're giving your {and mine} tax contribution to africa,the unemployed,asylum seekers,junkies,unnmaried mothers,former TD's who have resigned in disgrace,Bankers,bond Holders,NAMA and a host of other wasted causes that we have no right to be paying for.

jh79 wrote: »

and why should I not be able to question wages in the public sector.

Because like most people you have no idea what the wages are..you read about "averages" and all this sort of crap and convince yourself that everybody is pocketing huge salaries...and if you're not willing to work in teh public sector yourself you should be aware that wages are the cost of keeping this poxy country and its public services running.

People take so many things for granted in this country and seem not to care that there's actually men and women providing these services...for a wage...not for a profit that they can become rich on..a normal wage and anybody who thinks differently is a begrudger and should leave the country and go somewhere more efficient.

I'm honestly sick of the uninformed nonsense that gets trotted out by people who are still happy to use state services but donne think they should have to pay for them.

fliball123 · 25-01-2013 02:37PM

frankosw wrote: »

No it wont..you pay almost no tax on wages that low and as i said its almost double what the dole would pay...and besides of which IT'S A JOB!!

My first job back in 1991 payed £1.80 per hour..i often used to come out with around the same or just a bit more than my friend who got £45 per week on the dole but guess what? I'm not afraid to go out and actually get off my hole..its not all about how comfortable you can make yourself.

People going on about the need to rescue the economy and all that crap yet actually advocating the dole as a lifestyle choice..if the dole is paying more than *any* bloody job then it needs to be seriously looked at.

ok well put the figures up I am assuming its about 350 a week. So this person has to get to and from work, lunch, clothes and as well as paying tax USC, PRSI, and some income tax. Now do they pay the pension levy..After all of the above is taken out they wont have much more than what they get on the dole why would they bother. I am not agreeing with this point of view but I can certainly understand it. Welfare needs to take a hit to try and get people back into work

frankosw · 25-01-2013 02:40PM

fliball123 wrote: »

..After all of the above is taken out they wont have much more than what they get on the dole why would they bother.

Because its a job...they should be happy to be offered the chance to work for a living not wasting away at home at the taxpayers expense.

If the dole is seriously viewed as an alternative to part-time or low paid work them its no wonder the country is being bled white.

fliball123 · 25-01-2013 02:44PM

frankosw wrote: »

I think thats what the country needs...the entire PS to strike for a while and show the back-seat economists,students and dole-heads that the country is ****ed without the PS.

Go for it and you will have drive by buckets of piss thrown at you. If you do strike I hope the gov get in people in to positions that are needed short term I would even pay double my tax to break the unions. They have acted with any remorse for the new PS that are to employed and they show absolutely no recognition of how bad a position the country is in.

fliball123 · 25-01-2013 02:49PM

tayto lover wrote: »

So you want their wages cut and for them to work for fcuk-all for that reason?
That is just arrogance in my book and people seem to be wallowing in it to be honest. If I worked in the Public Sector I would be voting for a strike..
They are entitled to a decent wage regardless.
Let's see how the country gets on when they all go out on strike. I can't wait because this country is the way it is through corruption and the faster we hit the bottom the better. Then we can fix it.

No we just want to see the spend side of the equation coming down and the 2 biggest area of spend is social welfare which has taken hits over the last 3 years and ps pay and pensions which has been for the last 3 years insulated.

fliball123 · 25-01-2013 02:50PM

frankosw wrote: »

Do you think so?

Well what about when somebody:

Is doing a difficult and time-consuming job to the best of thier ability

takes almost no sick leave

Is never late

Spends a fortune in transport costs

Has had *two* paycuts totalling 15% of wages

Works an entire week per month for nothing when deductions are removed

Has never recieved a bonus

Never recieved an allowance

Never had the option of didlling the taxman or working cash in hand

Never had a company car

Never receieved a share of profits

Never had share options

Stuck on the top of an incremental scale for the next 3 years

When they are told,by people *on the internet* who know *nothing* about the nature of the job,pay or conditions that they are overpaid and underworked and should take a *further* paycut "for the good of the country" when tens of thousands are out of work *through choice*.

When people who have destroyed the economy through greed and stupidity telll *me* that i need to have less money for more work to bail them out...Then i will say "Okay,lets see how well the country lasts without us do-nothing,overpaid parasites".

I'd happily go on strike to fight for my pay and conditions...i ****ing well earn every penny.

i dare you to go down to the dole office and shout this at the top of your voice to people who have lost everything..if you feel hard done by Frank leave the job if your getting no job satisfaction there will be a line of people ready to do your job.

noodler · 25-01-2013 02:51PM

fliball123 wrote: »

Go for it and you will have drive by buckets of piss thrown at you. If you do strike I hope the gov get in people in to positions that are needed short term I would even pay double my tax to break the unions. They have acted with any remorse for the new PS that are to employed and they show absolutely no recognition of how bad a position the country is in.

Jesus man, calm down!

frankosw · 25-01-2013 02:53PM

fliball123 wrote: »

Go for it and you will have drive by buckets of piss thrown at you..

Sure.

How many people turned out at leinster house to protest about the bailout?

Almost nobody *YET* 3000 idiots turned up at the "Where's Wally" contest a week later.

The country has become weak because the standard of living for doing nothing is too high..this has led to a genreal apathy and as long as the masses have thier broadband and Sky Tv and Iphones they dont give a shiite about the economy.

Fortunatley the unions are there to at least agitate its membership to do something and stand up for what's right for thier workers.

I'm paying people's dole out of my own pocket and being told by the same people i'm getting paid too much? ha!

Shut down the welfare offices,and the schools,and the garda stations,and the passport offices,and everything else in between for two days and we'll see what happens.

fliball123 · 25-01-2013 02:54PM

tayto lover wrote: »

Some of them say their wages are down 17 to 20% already with cuts, levies etc. Then they have Property Tax and Water tax plus rises in car tax, petrol, tolls etc.
To me that is quite enough.
People seem to want to screw them completely.

We did pay back billions that were not Irish debts at all.
Let them take it out of that.

See this is a joke do you not realise for every penny not saved on the spend side will have to be got in tax. FFS will you please wake up to this we all have those things at least you know you have your job , pension and hopefully a cut to your wage coming up but you should be thankful for what you get.

frankosw · 25-01-2013 02:56PM

fliball123 wrote: »

leave the job if your getting satisfaction there will be a line of people ready to do your job.

Wonder how many of them would be Irish?

fliball123 · 25-01-2013 02:57PM

frankosw wrote: »

Because its a job...they should be happy to be offered the chance to work for a living not wasting away at home at the taxpayers expense.

If the dole is seriously viewed as an alternative to part-time or low paid work them its no wonder the country is being bled white.

I am not disagreeing with you Frank but I said I can see their point of view. People should be forced to this

frankosw · 25-01-2013 02:58PM

[QUOTE=fliball123;82880232 hopefully a cut to your wage coming up but you should be thankful for what you get.[/QUOTE]

Why do you say hopefully?

This would tend to imply you're on a personal vendetta of some sort brought about by spite.

Tell me,did you get turned down for a PS job in the past?

fliball123 · 25-01-2013 03:02PM

frankosw wrote: »

Sure.

How many people turned out at leinster house to protest about the bailout?

Almost nobody *YET* 3000 idiots turned up at the "Where's Wally" contest a week later.

The country has become weak because the standard of living for doing nothing is too high..this has led to a genreal apathy and as long as the masses have thier broadband and Sky Tv and Iphones they dont give a shiite about the economy.

Fortunatley the unions are there to at least agitate its membership to do something and stand up for what's right for thier workers.

I'm paying people's dole out of my own pocket and being told by the same people i'm getting paid too much? ha!

Shut down the welfare offices,and the schools,and the garda stations,and the passport offices,and everything else in between for two days and we'll see what happens.

The bailout was a gun to the head at midnight and signed in nearly straight away if I remember it correctyly (open to correction on this) was an emergency thing for the gov to push through the people had that hoisted on them without any say. Now people know what is going on with these discussions every newspaper, current affairs program on both tv and radio are constantly bringing issues up in relation to this. Do you think that while the tax payers most of whom are private sector and being bled dry see you lot striking and you think we will just go and watch Sky..I dont think you are judging the mood of the people at all right Frank so I would be very careful and if you do strike be careful of my bucket as I have a kidney infection and it will most likely be cloudy.

fliball123 · 25-01-2013 03:04PM

frankosw wrote: »

Wonder how many of them would be Irish?

That maybe true..Look your arguing with the wrong person about the levels of social welfare with me Pal I 100% agree with you on that issue

Godge · 25-01-2013 03:05PM

noodler wrote: »

I couldn't find them either for the last post.

I don' think you not being able to find the figures allows you to just guess them. I'll have another look.

Again, another assumption on your part.

Was there something wrong with the way I tackled your points in my previous post? Any reason why you did not respond?

Since the argument you were having with the previous poster was down to redundancy - technically self employed or those on shorter rolling contracts do not apply.

However, I don't think you dispute the fact that their employment / businesses ended on a compulsory basis?

There was a link in my post to the website maintained by the Irish National Organisation of the Unemployed who had obtained the 2010 and 2011 figures from the Department of Social Protection. I have no reason to doubt their accuracy. I extraplolated four year figures from them, applied a favourable assumption that all redundancies were compulsory and could still only come up to 11%.

Under an amendment to the Redundancy Payments Act, those on contract are also entitled to statutory redundancy and under the Fixed Term Act are entitled to the same treatment as permanent staff and get the same amount of ex-gratia redundancy. There was a case involving a university not so long ago that proved this - I will see can I find the details if I remember which one.

fliball123 · 25-01-2013 03:05PM

frankosw wrote: »

Why do you say hopefully?

This would tend to imply you're on a personal vendetta of some sort brought about by spite.

Tell me,did you get turned down for a PS job in the past?

Frank its simple economics if the PS get a pay cut it will also bring the cost of pensions down and it means it is less that has to be got by raising tax.

Godge · 25-01-2013 03:09PM

mfitzy wrote: »

My thoughts exactly. If I read that right, somebody working in HR in the PS has just posted here that 30% of applicants are Irish for some part time job. What part of "Private and Confidential" do they misunderstand

Well I guess they are unsackable!!

There is no breach of the Data Protection Act. Data Protection extends to personal information or general information that would identify a person.

So information that 30% of the people in this country are or UK origin is not personal information and is not covered by the Data Protection Act.

Saying that mfitzy applied for the public service and was rejected is personal information and is protected by the Data Protection Act and the Official Secrets Act.

It is possible that frankosw is in breach of the Official Secrets Act but in his defence the information he has provided is of such a general nature that it could not be proven even if it was believed to be a breach.

Farmer Pudsey · 25-01-2013 03:13PM

Godge wrote: »

There is no breach of the Data Protection Act. Data Protection extends to personal information or general information that would identify a person.

So information that 30% of the people in this country are or UK origin is not personal information and is not covered by the Data Protection Act.

Saying that mfitzy applied for the public service and was rejected is personal information and is protected by the Data Protection Act and the Official Secrets Act.

It is possible that frankosw is in breach of the Official Secrets Act but in his defence the information he has provided is of such a general nature that it could not be proven even if it was believed to be a breach.

However If I stated that I could be told that it is all made up by the way I find no reason to disbelieve him even though we have no link to prove it.:)

Godge · 25-01-2013 03:14PM

noodler wrote: »

Godge,

I have found the redundancy statistics on the Social Protection page. Awfully poor layout.
http://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/Actual-Redundancies---General-Statistics.aspx

2007:25,459
2008: 40,607
2009: 77,001
2010: 58,731
2011: 49,762
2012: 33,072

Okay, a grand total of 284,632.

2168600 = peak employment in 2007
1841300 = employment now

Minus out 330,000 Public sector in 2007 gives us 1838600 priavte sector workers
Minus out 295,000 (?) Public sector workers now gives us 1546300 private sector workers

So there has been a reduction in Private sector employment by 292,300 and there have been 284,632 redundancy applications.

Ok, thanks for the statistics. What they show is that over a period of six years, there have been 15.4% of private sector jobs made compulsorily redundant. That is still a long way from the widespread 20-30% and over that period of time, some of those must be double-counting people who were made redundant more than once.

By the way, as fixed-term workers in the public sector have been getting statutory redundancy, they are also included and should reduce the 15.4% but I will not quibble with that.

Of course, if you want to reach the 20-30%, you could extend it out to twenty years.

Celticfire · 25-01-2013 03:14PM

noodler wrote: »

KPMG on Marian Finucane show on Sunday morning saying their accounting graduates start on 22K.

An accounts graduate joins the like of KPMG to hone their skills and learn a nurse is already a qualified Nurse. Apples and Oranges

jh79 wrote: »

Audits on wages based on actual roles rather than group negotiations needs to be carried out. Then we can see who are over paid and who are underpaid.

According to some, everyone is overpaid. When they can't even admit that €22k is crap money for a nurse how the hell do you expect them to admit anyone is underpaid?

fliball123 wrote: »

Go for it and you will have drive by buckets of piss thrown at you. If you do strike I hope the gov get in people in to positions that are needed short term I would even pay double my tax to break the unions. They have acted with any remorse for the new PS that are to employed and they show absolutely no recognition of how bad a position the country is in.

Some piece of work.... the veil slipped again I see...

fliball123 wrote: »

That maybe true..Look your arguing with the wrong person about the levels of social welfare with me Pal I 100% agree with you on that issue

"Anyone but me"... isn't that your chant?

tayto lover · 25-01-2013 03:15PM

noodler wrote: »

Thats higher than average, if your cut was that high (incl Pension Levy) then you were on a higher wage,

Don't forget many public servants will have seen their wage (net of the levy and cuts) increase between 2007-2012 due to increments.

That doesn't make any sense and shows a complete lack of understanding between deficit and debt.

If we take away all the banking debt - we will still need to borrow 15bn euros this year to fund public services.

1. It does not matter about numbers if your mortgage and bills are based on your wages of a few years ago.

2. The debt repayment has taken so much out of the coffers of the workers that the deficit and debt at the moment are tied together. Regardless of which it is the people are asked and required to pay it.

Godge · 25-01-2013 03:16PM

noodler wrote: »

KPMG on Marian Finucane show on Sunday morning saying their accounting graduates start on 22K.

Trainee accountants, not fully-qualified accountants.

These are fully-qualified nurses we are talking about.

Not that I see anything wrong with what the HSE are doing.

frankosw · 25-01-2013 03:17PM

fliball123 wrote: »

Frank its simple economics if the PS get a pay cut it will also bring the cost of pensions down and it means it is less that has to be got by raising tax.

It will also bring down the spending power of 340,000 people so private businesses will suffer.

100 euro per month less for each of these people will cost the private sector 34 million in potential lost revenue...per month.

Didnt think of that did you?

25-01-2013 03:17PM

frankosw wrote: »

because this is ireland remember..they're giving your {and mine} tax contribution to africa,the unemployed,asylum seekers,junkies,unnmaried mothers,former TD's who have resigned in disgrace,Bankers,bond Holders,NAMA and a host of other wasted causes that we have no right to be paying for.

Because like most people you have no idea what the wages are..you read about "averages" and all this sort of crap and convince yourself that everybody is pocketing huge salaries...and if you're not willing to work in teh public sector yourself you should be aware that wages are the cost of keeping this poxy country and its public services running.

People take so many things for granted in this country and seem not to care that there's actually men and women providing these services...for a wage...not for a profit that they can become rich on..a normal wage and anybody who thinks differently is a begrudger and should leave the country and go somewhere more efficient.

I'm honestly sick of the uninformed nonsense that gets trotted out by people who are still happy to use state services but donne think they should have to pay for them.

Jobs in the public sector are always in demand, this idea that it is some sort of altruistic vocation is insulting, good paid and conditions, increments, pension and no genuine performance appraisals.

Again , "normal wage" is a matter of opinion.

25-01-2013 03:19PM

frankosw wrote: »

It will also bring down the spending power of 340,000 people so private businesses will suffer.

100 euro per month less for each of these people will cost the private sector 34 million in potential lost revenue...per month.

Didnt think of that did you?

It is going to be taken out of the economy either way, so it is not relevant.

Godge · 25-01-2013 03:19PM

frankosw wrote: »

Do you think so?

Well what about when somebody:

Is doing a difficult and time-consuming job to the best of thier ability

takes almost no sick leave

Is never late

Spends a fortune in transport costs

Has had *two* paycuts totalling 15% of wages

Works an entire week per month for nothing when deductions are removed

Has never recieved a bonus

Never recieved an allowance

Never had the option of didlling the taxman or working cash in hand

Never had a company car

Never receieved a share of profits

Never had share options

Stuck on the top of an incremental scale for the next 3 years

When they are told,by people *on the internet* who know *nothing* about the nature of the job,pay or conditions that they are overpaid and underworked and should take a *further* paycut "for the good of the country" when tens of thousands are out of work *through choice*.

When people who have destroyed the economy through greed and stupidity telll *me* that i need to have less money for more work to bail them out...Then i will say "Okay,lets see how well the country lasts without us do-nothing,overpaid parasites".

I'd happily go on strike to fight for my pay and conditions...i ****ing well earn every penny.

I don't have to agree with Frank here to point out to those on thread who lack understanding of realpolitik is that Frank is typical of the guy that the unions have to persuade to sign up to a new deal and that the government have to convince those unions bosses that the deal is good enough for the likes of Frank to vote on it. Do you understand my point that these negotiations have a long way to go?

fliball123 · 25-01-2013 03:20PM

Celticfire wrote: »

An accounts graduate joins the like of KPMG to hone their skills and learn a nurse is already a qualified Nurse. Apples and Oranges

According to some, everyone is overpaid. When they can't even admit that €22k is crap money for a nurse how the hell do you expect them to admit anyone is underpaid?

Some piece of work.... the veil slipped again I see...

"Anyone but me"... isn't that your chant?

What so you guys can threaten but we cant is that the way it is..And my chant is I have given in tax rises for the last 5 years...No more from me till you get some downward movement from the spend side

Croke Park II preliminary Talks started today

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