Croke Park II preliminary Talks started today

frankosw · 25-01-2013 01:42PM

jh79 wrote: »

Your generalising a lot, your post gave out about highly qualified graduates thinking jobs were beneath them, yet they applied for the very same positions otherwise you wouldn't of seen their cv's???? A bit confused.

There were a minority of applicants who were irish sporting those sort of qualifications,yes..my point is that many of them were in thier late 20's and had never actually done a days work...

25-01-2013 01:43PM

frankosw wrote: »

So 21 grand per anum for a degree-qualified nurse is dragging the economy down?

There are people on the dole with a couple of kids who pocket double that in net pay.

Is 21k not pretty standard for a graduate with a degree

frankosw · 25-01-2013 01:45PM

mfitzy wrote: »

My thoughts exactly. If I read that right, somebody working in HR in the PS has just posted here that 30% of applicants are Irish for some part time job. What part of "Private and Confidential" do they misunderstand

Well I guess they are unsackable!!

I dont recall seeing those words anywhere..

Besides i'm using figures,not names,not job description,not location and not interview results.

Gotta love statistics but when they dont suit the rabble they become a breach of some mysterious code of ethics.

frankosw · 25-01-2013 01:47PM

jh79 wrote: »

Is 21k not pretty standard for a graduate with a degree

Not in the private sector..they seem to want to start on double that.

25-01-2013 01:49PM

frankosw wrote: »

Not in the private sector..they seem to want to start on double that.

Might be what the unions tell ye, but low 20's is what most graduates start on

noodler · 25-01-2013 01:49PM

Godge,

I have found the redundancy statistics on the Social Protection page. Awfully poor layout.
http://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/Actual-Redundancies---General-Statistics.aspx

2007:25,459
2008: 40,607
2009: 77,001
2010: 58,731
2011: 49,762
2012: 33,072

Okay, a grand total of 284,632.

2168600 = peak employment in 2007
1841300 = employment now

Minus out 330,000 Public sector in 2007 gives us 1838600 priavte sector workers
Minus out 295,000 (?) Public sector workers now gives us 1546300 private sector workers

So there has been a reduction in Private sector employment by 292,300 and there have been 284,632 redundancy applications.

Pappa Charlie · 25-01-2013 01:50PM

mfitzy wrote: »

My thoughts exactly. If I read that right, somebody working in HR in the PS has just posted here that 30% of applicants are Irish for some part time job. What part of "Private and Confidential" do they misunderstand

Well I guess they are unsackable!!

You could always do it yourself!

frankosw · 25-01-2013 01:52PM

jh79 wrote: »

Might be what the unions tell ye, but low 20's is what most graduates start on

Well why are so few of them applying for jobs that pay in the low 20's?

Most jobs paying that sort of money are taken by foreigners.

road_high · 25-01-2013 01:52PM

Pappa Charlie wrote: »

You could always do it yourself!

Do what? What are you talking about?

tayto lover · 25-01-2013 01:53PM

I heard on the News that the Garda have pulled out of the talks and are threatening action if their pay and conditions are cut.
That';s great and i hope the nurses, teachers, prison officers, firemen etc do the same. Bring this charade of a country to the ground.
We need to start again and begin with the politicians. When we fix that, our biggest problem area, then we can fix the entire country.

frankosw · 25-01-2013 01:56PM

tayto lover wrote: »

I heard on the News that the Garda have pulled out of the talks and are threatening action if their pay and conditions are cut.
That';s great and i hope the nurses, teachers, prison officers, firemen etc do the same. Bring this charade of a country to the ground.
.

I think thats what the country needs...the entire PS to strike for a while and show the back-seat economists,students and dole-heads that the country is ****ed without the PS.

noodler · 25-01-2013 01:57PM

frankosw wrote: »

Not in the private sector..they seem to want to start on double that.

KPMG on Marian Finucane show on Sunday morning saying their accounting graduates start on 22K.

road_high · 25-01-2013 01:59PM

frankosw wrote: »

I think thats what the country needs...the entire PS to strike for a while and show the back-seat economists,students and dole-heads that the country is ****ed without the PS.

It's scary that someone would even have that opinion let alone write it down...

tayto lover · 25-01-2013 01:59PM

noodler wrote: »

KPMG on Marian Finucane show on Sunday morning saying their accounting graduates start on 22K.

But yer wan's daddy is getting loads more than that

25-01-2013 02:00PM

frankosw wrote: »

Well why are so few of them applying for jobs that pay in the low 20's?

Most jobs paying that sort of money are taken by foreigners.

How would you know that?

The current rate of pay for nurses is no different than that for any multinational that require a 3rd level qualification on average. I think some software companies now start at this level and this sector is generally one of the highest paying.

Farmer Pudsey · 25-01-2013 02:01PM

frankosw wrote: »

So 21 grand per anum for a degree-qualified nurse is dragging the economy down?

There are people on the dole with a couple of kids who pocket double that in net pay.

franksow

maybe you should again read some of my previous posts, I for instance have previously stated that the 20% graduate nurse scheme is a disgrace, I also posted that I believe that a cut generally accross the board is fairer than targeting there allowances.

When you compare there rate and hours to what is general accross the public service they are not over paid and if the other unions exempted them from any cuts rather than some trying to target them I would be more than happy. In hospitals I have seldom seen Nurses standing around ( thanks god I am not in there often) doing nothing compare to other staff working there and more and more responsbility seems to be loaded onto there shoulders. I also believe that because they are a mainly female occupation they have been hard done by over the years. I also hate to sees the other unions wheel them out everytime they mention frontline staff.
But they are the only area that I am willing to concede that are probably under paid they definately not overpaid.

OK

tayto lover · 25-01-2013 02:01PM

mfitzy wrote: »

It's scary that someone would even have that opinion let alone write it down...

The question is why wouldn't they have that opinion and say it. They will only take so much it seems and they are dead right.

noodler · 25-01-2013 02:03PM

Who do people keep saying 21K?

It has been mentioned in this thread a couple of times but I can't keep track of each user who said it or if it was the same user.

It is 22K right? Rising to 26K?

Recognising other graduates have to start on a similar wage is not really the same as condoning it.

road_high · 25-01-2013 02:04PM

tayto lover wrote: »

The question is why wouldn't they have that opinion and say it. They will only take so much it seems and they are dead right.

Because it's frankly outrageous/absurd/detached from all reality in a world where your emplyer is stone broke and propped up by IMF funding to the tune of billions.

25-01-2013 02:04PM

tayto lover wrote: »

The question is why wouldn't they have that opinion and say it. They will only take so much it seems and they are dead right.

"Take so much" is subjective, teachers for example could afford a trim and still could take home a great wage.

tayto lover · 25-01-2013 02:10PM

mfitzy wrote: »

Because it's frankly outrageous/absurd/detached from all reality in a world where your emplyer is stone broke and propped up by IMF funding to the tune of billions.

So you want their wages cut and for them to work for fcuk-all for that reason?
That is just arrogance in my book and people seem to be wallowing in it to be honest. If I worked in the Public Sector I would be voting for a strike..
They are entitled to a decent wage regardless.
Let's see how the country gets on when they all go out on strike. I can't wait because this country is the way it is through corruption and the faster we hit the bottom the better. Then we can fix it.

frankosw · 25-01-2013 02:14PM

mfitzy wrote: »

It's scary that someone would even have that opinion let alone write it down...

Do you think so?

Well what about when somebody:

Is doing a difficult and time-consuming job to the best of thier ability

takes almost no sick leave

Is never late

Spends a fortune in transport costs

Has had *two* paycuts totalling 15% of wages

Works an entire week per month for nothing when deductions are removed

Has never recieved a bonus

Never recieved an allowance

Never had the option of didlling the taxman or working cash in hand

Never had a company car

Never receieved a share of profits

Never had share options

Stuck on the top of an incremental scale for the next 3 years

When they are told,by people *on the internet* who know *nothing* about the nature of the job,pay or conditions that they are overpaid and underworked and should take a *further* paycut "for the good of the country" when tens of thousands are out of work *through choice*.

When people who have destroyed the economy through greed and stupidity telll *me* that i need to have less money for more work to bail them out...Then i will say "Okay,lets see how well the country lasts without us do-nothing,overpaid parasites".

I'd happily go on strike to fight for my pay and conditions...i ****ing well earn every penny.

noodler · 25-01-2013 02:14PM

tayto lover wrote: »

So you want their wages cut and for them to work for fcuk-all for that reason?

No, of course not.

There is certainly room for manouevre though.

We had to borrow over 15bn last year to fund public services and are going through the country's worst employment crisis in decades.

A greater contribution by the PS Pay and Pensions bill to the 25+bn adjustement taken since the crisis began is all the Government are asking for.

noodler · 25-01-2013 02:15PM

frankosw wrote: »

D

Never receieved a share of profits

Never had share options

I have to wonder how many of the 1.5m private sector workers get these types of things?

sarumite · 25-01-2013 02:17PM

Godge wrote: »

You may well be right Farmer, and actually I think there is a way at looking at this. Redundancy statistics are provided by the Department of Social Protection. I can't find it on their site and the number would include both voluntary and compulsory. Here is a link to a site (INOU) which could hardly be accused of wanting to show the numbers as being low.

http://www.inou.ie/policy/statistics/redundancies.html

So 2011 shows the number of redundancies as 49,762 and 2010 as 58,731. Let us assume that the number of redundancies not notified (even though this is a legal requirement) equals the number of voluntary redundancies and accept that there is 50,000 compulsory redundancies a year. Assume that this makes 200,000 over the four year period and this gives an assumption that out of the 1.8m private sector workforce around 11% were made redundant between the end of 2008 and the end of 2012. Now that includes those who were made redundant more than once so the actual number of private sector workers who weren't made redundant at all would be over 92-93%.

11% over four years is close enough to the 10% I arrived at via another method and still a long way from 20-30% being common.

2008 and 2009 were by far the worst years for rising unemployment. By the end of 2009 (start of 2010) the rate by which unemployment was increasing had somewhat levelled off. I am not saying this automatically translates to redundancies, however it does show that those two years were dynamically very different to 2010 onwards. Using 2010 and 2011 figures and choosing a period towards the end of 2008 rather than the start of 2008 could give inaccurate figures for redundancy.

25-01-2013 02:17PM

tayto lover wrote: »

So you want their wages cut and for them to work for fcuk-all for that reason?
That is just arrogance in my book and people seem to be wallowing in it to be honest. If I worked in the Public Sector I would be voting for a strike..
They are entitled to a decent wage regardless.
Let's see how the country gets on when they all go out on strike. I can't wait because this country is the way it is through corruption and the faster we hit the bottom the better. Then we can fix it.

Massive upheaval would affect the private sector leading to a loss in revenue for the government that would require further adjustments to be made, so that might not be the best plan.

Audits on wages based on actual roles rather than group negotiations needs to be carried out. Then we can see who are over paid and who are underpaid.

frankosw · 25-01-2013 02:18PM

noodler wrote: »

I have to wonder how many of the 1.5m private sector workers get these types of things?

Plenty.

tayto lover · 25-01-2013 02:19PM

noodler wrote: »

No, of course not.

There is certainly room for manouevre though.

We had to borrow over 15bn last year to fund public services and are going through the country's worst employment crisis in decades.

A greater contribution by the PS Pay and Pensions bill to the 25+bn adjustement taken since the crisis began is all the Government are asking for.

Some of them say their wages are down 17 to 20% already with cuts, levies etc. Then they have Property Tax and Water tax plus rises in car tax, petrol, tolls etc.
To me that is quite enough.
People seem to want to screw them completely.

We did pay back billions that were not Irish debts at all.
Let them take it out of that.

25-01-2013 02:21PM

frankosw wrote: »

Do you think so?

Well what about when somebody:

Is doing a difficult and time-consuming job to the best of thier ability

takes almost no sick leave

Is never late

Spends a fortune in transport costs

Has had *two* paycuts totalling 15% of wages

Works an entire week per month for nothing when deductions are removed

Has never recieved a bonus

Never recieved an allowance

Never had the option of didlling the taxman or working cash in hand

Never had a company car

Never receieved a share of profits

Never had share options

Stuck on the top of an incremental scale for the next 3 years

When they are told,by people *on the internet* who know *nothing* about the nature of the job,pay or conditions that they are overpaid and underworked and should take a *further* paycut "for the good of the country" when tens of thousands are out of work *through choice*.

When people who have destroyed the economy through greed and stupidity telll *me* that i need to have less money for more work to bail them out...Then i will say "Okay,lets see how well the country lasts without us do-nothing,overpaid parasites".

I'd happily go on strike to fight for my pay and conditions...i ****ing well earn every penny.

Just because someone takes a number of pay cuts doesn't mean they are not overpaid! More transparency is needed so we can quit with the assumptions both sides are guilty of.

Why should my tax contribution not be spent as wisely as possible and why should I not be able to question wages in the public sector.

25-01-2013 02:23PM

tayto lover wrote: »

Some of them say their wages are down 17 to 20% already with cuts, levies etc. Then they have Property Tax and Water tax plus rises in car tax, petrol, tolls etc.
To me that is quite enough.
People seem to want to screw them completely.

We did pay back billions that were not Irish debts at all.
Let them take it out of that.

It's not the number of cuts it is whether the figure your currently at is fair in the current climate.

Croke Park II preliminary Talks started today

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