Croke Park II preliminary Talks started today

tayto lover · 24-01-2013 04:35PM

fliball123 wrote: »

Does a pay increment increase that persons wage both nett and gross? yes
Does the tax payer have to pay more for this? yes

if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, 9 times out of 10 its a duck the other time its a public servant dressed as a duck

Only the ps could call the pension levy a pay cut and a pay increment not a pay rise.

Or an Australian duck.
What time is it over there?
Hope your not back here drawing the dole which is being paid for by our taxes.

24-01-2013 04:36PM

Tim Robbins wrote: »

But that's obvious. There is very little economic return from the public sector.
They export nothing. The question is one of fairness. In the grand scheme of things how much more money do they deserve than people on the dole.

None sure they should be paid in foodstuffs handed out at the end of each shift based on the number of dependants living in their shack, the wasters. Imagine not producing something that can be sold to create profit sure that's not a job at all

24-01-2013 04:37PM

tayto lover wrote: »

What is the equivalent of a fireman, garda or prison officer in the Private Sector please?

Negotiations should be done separately. Plenty of other positions in the PS that could be judged against the private sector.

tayto lover · 24-01-2013 04:39PM

jh79 wrote: »

Negotiations should be done separately. Plenty of other positions in the PS that could be judged against the private sector.

Well they were not done separately when we were earning much more than the PS but carry on.

fliball123 · 24-01-2013 04:40PM

Godge wrote: »

But you see, my point is that not everything else is being cut.

There has been no cut to the contributory old-age pension.
There has been no cut to tax relief for pension contributions.
There has been no increase in income tax rates.
There have only been minor cuts to social welfare rates.

I could go on.

Sorry income tax has gone up in the last 5 years and the USC is a tax on income and that has been introduced and has been increased.
The tax relief for pension contributions has been cut it went from 40% to 33% and is due to be cut further in the next 2 years I believe. Not too sure on the % figures there but it has definitely been cut.
Out of 4 that you state how many of them have seen an increase or decrease in the case of income tax in the favor of the parson receiving them or paying them in the case of income tax. Answer is none. Yet PS get increments to bring pay up?
I agree with the pensions they should be cut same goes with social welfare

Godge · 24-01-2013 04:40PM

jh79 wrote: »

Clerical and Executive Officers,

Interesting choice.

I have seen and read research that suggests that Clerical and Executive Officers are low-paid by international public service standards (OECD research in particular) but high-paid by Irish private sector standards.

There is also research that indicates private sector wages in Ireland are unfairly differentiated with too big a gap between top and bottom. I would also believe there is widespread gender discrimnation in the private sector (but I cannot find any empirical research to back this up). The danger in a simplistic comparison to the private sector is that you would import these biases into the public sector.

24-01-2013 04:41PM

tayto lover wrote: »

Well they were not done separately when we were earning much more than the PS but carry on.

?

fliball123 · 24-01-2013 04:42PM

tayto lover wrote: »

Or an Australian duck.
What time is it over there?
Hope your not back here drawing the dole which is being paid for by our taxes.

No back about 8 months now got a job offer and missed my kid too much so had to come back

itzme · 24-01-2013 04:44PM

fliball123 wrote: »

No back about 8 months now got a job offer and missed my kid too much so had to come back

Congrats on the move back, the job offer and being back with your family.

On your posts though I think you already know that I think you choose the data that fits your bias and ignore the rest that would challenge you to reconsider these views. That shouldn't take away from the sincere congrats though

Godge · 24-01-2013 04:45PM

fliball123 wrote: »

Sorry income tax has gone up in the last 5 years

http://www.revenue.ie/en/press/budget/archive/2007/income-tax.html#section1

I said the income tax rates had not changed. In 2007, they were reduced to 41% and 20%, they have not changed since then.

fliball123 wrote: »

The tax relief for pension contributions has been cut it went from 40% to 33% and is due to be cut further in the next 2 years I believe.

That was rumoured to happen but it was not one of the measures announced. Instead the minister said he would put a cap on pension pots with effect from 2014 but he is yet to figure out how to do this (I don't think he can).

fliball123 · 24-01-2013 04:46PM

itzme wrote: »

Congrats on the move back, the job offer and being back with your family.

On your posts though I think you already know that I think you choose the data that fits your bias and ignore the rest that would challenge you to reconsider these views. That shouldn't take away from the sincere congrats though

Cheers Itzme. Look you say Bias I say protecting myself. I have said all along for every cent not saved on the expenditure side of things we will have to get in tax. That is at the simplest level. I think we have had enough tax hikes in direct and indirect taxes already and lots are feeling the pain and find the effort of going to work not worth it financially.

fliball123 · 24-01-2013 04:48PM

Godge wrote: »

http://www.revenue.ie/en/press/budget/archive/2007/income-tax.html#section1

I said the income tax rates had not changed. In 2007, they were reduced to 41% and 20%, they have not changed since then.

That was rumoured to happen but it was not one of the measures announced. Instead the minister said he would put a cap on pension pots with effect from 2014 but he is yet to figure out how to do this (I don't think he can).

Yes and I pointed out that USC which is an income tax was introduced and increased in that period or do you disagree? True enough about the pensions it was kite flying exercise I think

24-01-2013 04:48PM

Godge wrote: »

Interesting choice.

I have seen and read research that suggests that Clerical and Executive Officers are low-paid by international public service standards (OECD research in particular) but high-paid by Irish private sector standards.

There is also research that indicates private sector wages in Ireland are unfairly differentiated with too big a gap between top and bottom. I would also believe there is widespread gender discrimnation in the private sector (but I cannot find any empirical research to back this up). The danger in a simplistic comparison to the private sector is that you would import these biases into the public sector.

So they should have some level of adjustment?

Not much comfort to those in the private sector.

noodler · 24-01-2013 04:48PM

Godge wrote: »

That report was that this was the first pay increase over and above increments!

Does it actually say that?

noodler · 24-01-2013 04:50PM

Godge wrote: »

http://www.revenue.ie/en/press/budget/archive/2007/income-tax.html#section1

I said the income tax rates had not changed. In 2007, they were reduced to 41% and 20%, they have not changed since then.

Income bands have fallend by 10%

Income tax credits have also fallen by 10%.

De facto increases in income tax paid.

noodler · 24-01-2013 04:51PM

Godge wrote: »

Interesting choice.

I have seen and read research that suggests that Clerical and Executive Officers are low-paid by international public service standards (OECD research in particular) but high-paid by Irish private sector standards.

There is also research that indicates private sector wages in Ireland are unfairly differentiated with too big a gap between top and bottom. I would also believe there is widespread gender discrimnation in the private sector (but I cannot find any empirical research to back this up). The danger in a simplistic comparison to the private sector is that you would import these biases into the public sector.

The ECB and CSO have both done in-depth and certanly "non-simple" comparisons of Irish PS pay compared with international counterparts.

Tim Robbins · 24-01-2013 04:54PM

itzme wrote: »

I won't be engaging any more of your posts. You provide no evidence, facts or information to support your extreme, incorrect and unresearched views.

The public export nothing. Fact. What type of evidence do you want to support that?

Anyway, I entered this thread somewhat sympathetic of the public sector. The slightest bit of criticism and a few people can't handle it. The words toys and pram come to mind.

Some the public sector wish that people who work here pay tax here have no opinion. Every pay cheque I am ripped off. My taxes provides a lifestyle to public sector people that I can't attain myself. The asymmetry won't end. Sooner or later a political party will tackle this - failing that the IMF will do what happened in Greece. 50% cuts baby.

Godge · 24-01-2013 04:55PM

noodler wrote: »

Income bands have fallend by 10%

Income tax credits have also fallen by 10%.

De facto increases in income tax paid.

I said the income tax rates have not changed. Fact or fiction?

Godge · 24-01-2013 04:57PM

noodler wrote: »

The ECB and CSO have both done in-depth and certanly "non-simple" comparisons of Irish PS pay compared with international counterparts.

My point is that there is contradictory evidence available depending on who you compare with and which assumptions you make. Most suggest that most of the public sector is overpaid but a significant minority suggest there are large pockets of underpayment depending on the criteria you use.

fliball123 · 24-01-2013 04:58PM

Godge wrote: »

I said the income tax rates have not changed. Fact or fiction?

Godge in your argument you are trying to make out that income tax has remained unchanged as you have with the other 3 areas you outlined. Now you have been brought to task twice by this poster and by my USC argument..Move on as its a nothing argument

noodler · 24-01-2013 04:58PM

Godge wrote: »

I said the income tax rates have not changed. Fact or fiction?

I am saying the amount of income tax we pay has increased substantially over the course of the last 5 year.

First with the Health Levy, then the income levy which eventually became the USC.

Then the band/credits reduction as noted above.

I am not saying you are on of them but there are some posters who would interpret the fact that income tax rates remaning unchanged means that we are paying the same income tax we were 5 years ago.

Social insurance contribtions increased in 2013 by 250 euro each as well of course.

Godge · 24-01-2013 05:00PM

jh79 wrote: »

So they should have some level of adjustment?

Not much comfort to those in the private sector.

Depends on whether you compare them to the private sector in Ireland or to the public sector in Europe.

If you compare public sector managerial staff to the private sector in Ireland they deserve an increase (ESRI study).
If you compare clerical level staff to the public sector in Europe they deserve an increase (OECD study).

The opposite is true by reversing the studies.

noodler · 24-01-2013 05:00PM

Godge wrote: »

My point is that there is contradictory evidence available depending on who you compare with and which assumptions you make. Most suggest that most of the public sector is overpaid but a significant minority suggest there are large pockets of underpayment depending on the criteria you use.

Fine.

Thats absolutely fine.

Nobody is suggesting the PS is somesort of homogenous behemoth (except for pensions and increments perhaps).

I don't think anyone believes there should another straight 5-10% cut on all levels. Even the Government themselves seem, according to report, to only be targeting higher earners with salary rate decreases.

24-01-2013 05:01PM

Godge wrote: »

My point is that there is contradictory evidence available depending on who you compare with and which assumptions you make. Most suggest that most of the public sector is overpaid but a significant minority suggest there are large pockets of underpayment depending on the criteria you use.

So the fairest solution would be to cut the pay of those that are overpaid and increase the pay of those underpaid based on the majority of the evidence

Godge · 24-01-2013 05:02PM

noodler wrote: »

I am saying the amount of income tax we pay has increased substantially over the course of the last 5 year.

First with the Health Levy, then the income levy which eventually became the USC.

Then the band/credits reduction as noted above.

I am not saying you are on of them but there are some posters who would interpret the fact that income tax rates remaning unchanged means that we are paying the same income tax we were 5 years ago.

Social insurance contribtions increased in 2013 by 250 euro each as well of course.

No but I would suggest that income tax reliefs should be further cut and that the standard income tax rate should go up to 22%. Income tax rates on lower and average paid are below international standards.

Would leave the bands alone.

fliball123 · 24-01-2013 05:02PM

jh79 wrote: »

So the fairest solution would be to cut the pay of those that are overpaid and increase the pay of those underpaid based on the majority of the evidence

First part I agree with the the second part can happen when we are out of debt and no longer borrowing

Godge · 24-01-2013 05:02PM

noodler wrote: »

Fine.

Thats absolutely fine.

Nobody is suggesting the PS is somesort of homogenous behemoth (except for pensions and increments perhaps).

I don't think anyone believes there should another straight 5-10% cut on all levels. Even the Government themselves seem, according to report, to only be targeting higher earners with salary rate decreases.

now we are making progress. But what if it is the higher earners who are the ones who are underpaid?

24-01-2013 05:03PM

Godge wrote: »

Depends on whether you compare them to the private sector in Ireland or to the public sector in Europe.

If you compare public sector managerial staff to the private sector in Ireland they deserve an increase (ESRI study).
If you compare clerical level staff to the public sector in Europe they deserve an increase (OECD study).

The opposite is true by reversing the studies.

Other parts of the PS get a lot more than their EU counterparts, teachers for example

tayto lover · 24-01-2013 05:08PM

jh79 wrote: »

Other parts of the PS get a lot more than their EU counterparts, teachers for example

What about food, doctors bills, VRT etc?
Are they all the same across Europe?

fliball123 · 24-01-2013 05:14PM

tayto lover wrote: »

What about food, doctors bills, VRT etc?
Are they all the same across Europe?

And yet the dole will be cut and taxes will rise..Whats your point?

Croke Park II preliminary Talks started today

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