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Croke Park II preliminary Talks started today

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Comments

  • #722
    fliball123
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,625 ✭✭✭fliball123


    Godge wrote: »
    The above is on a different playing pitch to the below.

    Its not really when you look at the dynamics and its relation of spend vs income.

    The banks and PS not to mention our social welfare are on life support of our borrowings. There has been spouting that the private sector are starting to see payrises again. I have asked are they profitable. To this the PS counter yeah look at the banks. The banks are all owned or partially owned by the gov and its deficit is being bridged by loans or tax payers money. This is not indicative of a private sector company.

    So I seperated out the properties which are this

    Show me one private sector co paying an payrise
    which :
    is not in debt and borrowing.
    and not being bailed out by the tax payer.

    There will be no answer because any company even approaching this state goes to the wall.


  • #723
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    noodler wrote: »
    Yes, the bit you put in bold is a complete and utter change in your orginal post.

    Banks are closing branches and layinf off workers because of pay increases to other staff.

    Banks are closing branches and laying off workers due in a very small way to increase being paid to other staff.

    Changes the whole post.

    The biggest reason for redundancies and closures is, by an absolute country mile, the deleveraging of the banks as a result of the crisis and EU/IMF targets.

    "in part" is not the same as "due in a very small way".

    I believe if bankers pay had been reduced to the level of ordinary bankers pay in say Italy that many more branches could have been kept open. The closure of branches is unrelated to the disappearance and downsizing of business. Those branches were there for many years before the boom and before the increase in business.


  • #724
    fliball123
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,625 ✭✭✭fliball123


    Godge wrote: »
    "in part" is not the same as "due in a very small way".

    I believe if bankers pay had been reduced to the level of ordinary bankers pay in say Italy that many more branches could have been kept open. The closure of branches is unrelated to the disappearance and downsizing of business. Those branches were there for many years before the boom and before the increase in business.

    Probably I dont think you will get much sympathy on here for any of the bankers. I think there is common ground between private and public sector on this. As the banks are now in a grey shaddy as Fcuk area where it belongs


  • #725
    noodler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,013 ✭✭✭✭noodler


    Godge wrote: »
    That is a silly question because there are always other drastic options

    (1) Increase standard income tax rate to 35%
    (2) Abolish all tax reliefs and replace with a 10% tax up to the average level of the tax reliefs
    (3) Cut social welfare by 35%
    (4) Triple the property tax

    I could go on. Is there anyone from any sector here who would favour the above if it could be proved that the country could not afford these irrespective of bank bailout?

    You need to demonstrate that the best option for the country and the easiest most effective way to save money is through public service pay cuts. Nobody has yet been able to do that.

    Of course it has been done.

    It has been proven a million times over.

    Jesus Christ.


    Croke Park 1 initiated by the previous Government,
    Croke Park 2 initiated by the present Government

    The CSO, ECB and OECD all finding premiums between private sector pay which is not fully accounted for by qualifications.

    Members of the Government being opposed to increments.

    Troika reports questioning the reduction in PS numbers as opposed to cuts in PS pay.

    The PS pay and Pensions bill doubling in ten years.

    The ESRI's stringent criticism of the benchmarking process.

    The fact a PS worker (or perhaps Civil Servant in particular) only requiring a two out of five rating to qualify for an increment.

    Ridiclous allowances which in the recent management review found that in case after case the main 'business case' for not abolishing an allowance was public sector unrest rather than any actual merit to the allowance.


  • #726
    noodler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,013 ✭✭✭✭noodler


    Godge wrote: »
    "in part" is not the same as "due in a very small way".

    I believe if bankers pay had been reduced to the level of ordinary bankers pay in say Italy that many more branches could have been kept open. The closure of branches is unrelated to the disappearance and downsizing of business. Those branches were there for many years before the boom and before the increase in business.

    The reason branches are closing and staff are being laid off is due to bankers pay?

    That is what you are sticking to?

    You haven't a clue what you are talking about then.

    Here is some light reading for you.

    http://banking.finance.gov.ie/wp-content/uploads/Deleveraging-November-2012.pdf


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  • #727
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    noodler wrote: »
    I'll come back to it.

    Have you actually proved supermarkets give annual increments?

    Or just Dunnes?

    I have already proven Dunnes.

    Tesco:

    http://www.mandate.ie/news/newsitem.aspx?Nid=375&pr=true&NType=0

    What percentage of the supermarket retail market do I have to reach in order for you to accept that that incremental scales are common. I have shown Tesco and Dunnes, I know from personal experience that Roches Stores used them and that Debenhams guaranteed those contracts when they took it over.


  • #728
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    noodler wrote: »
    The reason branches are closing and staff are being laid off is due to bankers pay?

    That is what you are sticking to?

    You haven't a clue what you are talking about then.

    Here is some light reading for you.

    http://banking.finance.gov.ie/wp-content/uploads/Deleveraging-November-2012.pdf


    No that is not what I am saying. I conceded "in part" and then I focussed on branch closures. Staff in head office leaving because of the business downturn does not mean branches have to close.


  • #729
    fliball123
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,625 ✭✭✭fliball123


    Godge wrote: »
    I have already proven Dunnes.

    Tesco:

    http://www.mandate.ie/news/newsitem.aspx?Nid=375&pr=true&NType=0

    What percentage of the supermarket retail market do I have to reach in order for you to accept that that incremental scales are common. I have shown Tesco and Dunnes, I know from personal experience that Roches Stores used them and that Debenhams guaranteed those contracts when they took it over.

    Are Dunnes making a profit = Yes
    Are they being bailed out by the tax payer = No


  • #730
    Tim Robbins
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,039 ✭✭✭Tim Robbins


    Godge wrote: »
    You need to demonstrate that the best option for the country and the easiest most effective way to save money is through public service pay cuts. Nobody has yet been able to do that.
    But that's obvious. There is very little economic return from the public sector.
    They export nothing. The question is one of fairness. In the grand scheme of things how much more money do they deserve than people on the dole.


  • #731
    noodler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,013 ✭✭✭✭noodler


    Godge wrote: »
    No that is not what I am saying. I conceded "in part" and then I focussed on branch closures. Staff in head office leaving because of the business downturn does not mean branches have to close.

    Mortgages issuances being down 95% since the boom time would play a part though. As would a serious reduction in deposits.

    Internet banking, as always, likely plays a role in some branch closures as well. Although I admit that point is more anecdotal.


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  • #732
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    noodler wrote: »
    Of course it has been done.

    It has been proven a million times over.

    Jesus Christ.


    Croke Park 1 initiated by the previous Government,
    Croke Park 2 initiated by the present Government

    The CSO, ECB and OECD all finding premiums between private sector pay which is not fully accounted for by qualifications.

    Members of the Government being opposed to increments.

    Troika reports questioning the reduction in PS numbers as opposed to cuts in PS pay.

    The PS pay and Pensions bill doubling in ten years.

    The ESRI's stringent criticism of the benchmarking process.

    The fact a PS worker (or perhaps Civil Servant in particular) only requiring a two out of five rating to qualify for an increment.

    Ridiclous allowances which in the recent management review found that in case after case the main 'business case' for not abolishing an allowance was public sector unrest rather than any actual merit to the allowance.


    None of the above demonstrates that cutting public service pay is a better policy option for the closure of the budget deficit than cutting social welfare or increasing income, property and wealth taxes.

    Numerous reports have found that income tax on the average worker in Ireland is low by international standards
    Numerous reports have found that social welfare is extremely high by international standards
    Numerous reports have condemned the absence of property and water charges

    To look at one point on your list, how does "Members of the Government being opposed to increments" prove that the cutting of pay is the best policy option? Really?


  • #733
    noodler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,013 ✭✭✭✭noodler


    Godge wrote: »
    No that is not what I am saying. I conceded "in part" and then I focussed on branch closures. Staff in head office leaving because of the business downturn does not mean branches have to close.
    This is the first pay increase that Tesco’s 13,000 staff will have received in over four years

    My initial point was that these (lower-paid) staff recieivng a minor pay increase for the first time in four years should in no way be used as ammunition for a lack of pay cuts on high earners in the PS.

    Especially considering many PS workers would have recieved annual salary increases despite the crisis.

    I feel fairly justified now that annual salary increments are not the norm in retail over the last 5 years.


  • #734
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    fliball123 wrote: »
    Are Dunnes making a profit = Yes
    Are they being bailed out by the tax payer = No

    What has that got to do with noodler working for four years in a supermarket and not getting a pay increase, not an increment and not any other type of a pay rise?


  • #735
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    noodler wrote: »
    My initial point was that these (lower-paid) staff recieivng a minor pay increase for the first time in four years should in no way be used as ammunition for a lack of pay cuts on high earners in the PS.

    Especially considering many PS workers would have recieved annual salary increases despite the crisis.

    I feel fairly justified now that annual salary increments are not the norm in retail over the last 5 years.


    That report was that this was the first pay increase over and above increments!


  • #736
    itzme
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 338 ✭✭itzme


    Tim Robbins wrote: »
    But that's obvious. There is very little economic return from the public sector.
    They export nothing. The question is one of fairness. In the grand scheme of things how much more money do they deserve than people on the dole.

    Well that right there shows you have no understanding at all of the public sector and its relationship to a country, its citizens and its economy.

    There is very little economic return of the public sector!

    You think the education of children has no economic return, you think the higher level training of third level students has no economic return?

    You think that the response time of the emergency services has no economic return?

    That the NRA keeps the motorways in extremely good (by international standards) condition for the sake of it?

    Have you ever read any of the EU directives on policy implementations for the PS. For example I suggest you read the ones on road safety. Take a look at why they are instituting road safety protocols. It has nothing to do with public safety it is pure economics. Close a road for X hours reduces the transports of goods, economic loss. Speed of getting someone to hospital impacts their recovery time and the length of time they are out of work, economic loss. The death of someone due to road conditions / emergency response is a loss to the economy. Their replacement, length of absence, training all costs to the economy. This is all costed in the EU reports.
    The fact that few (and some do) parts generate direct income is a true statement to say they have no economic return is pathetic and would suggest to me you have not put any depth of thought into the purpose, responsibilities and necessity for the PS.


  • #737
    woodoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,219 ✭✭✭woodoo


    fliball123 wrote: »
    But the PS use collective bargaining via their unions and attack one area and its all out war..Look at increments, look at the attempt to get rid of outdated and ridiculous perks.

    Increments are a fundamental part of Public Service pay. They are not a ridiculous perk. It feels like such waste of time posting here nobody moves an inch from their original position.

    Free tea or coffee would be a perk, a free parking space, maybe flexi time could be considered a bit of a perk. Not increments.


  • #738
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    Tim Robbins wrote: »
    But that's obvious. There is very little economic return from the public sector.
    They export nothing. The question is one of fairness. In the grand scheme of things how much more money do they deserve than people on the dole.


    No there is very little economic return from schools, hospitals, armies, policemen, firemen, prison officers, :rolleyes:etc. but no society can survive without them.

    And yes, they deserve a significant amount more money than people on the dole, otherwise they would all sit on the dole as well and good luck with your fire when the uneducated gangs come round and beat you to a pulp and burn your house down.


  • #739
    Tim Robbins
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,039 ✭✭✭Tim Robbins


    itzme wrote: »
    You think the education of children has no economic return, you think the higher level training of third level students has no economic return?
    A lot of it is a waste of money. A lot of education now is free. For example coursera. And a lot of it is way cheaper if you go with say Open University.

    I think our educational standards are very low - mainly because the only thing teachers really care about is their wages. Most of them are prepared to lie and pretend they are catholics and teach young children there is an imaginary friend in the sky if the money is right. It's rare you meet a teacher with passion for what they are teaching and when you do, I feel sorry for them. Completely sneered at in a culture that is work to rule.
    You think that the response time of the emergency services has no economic return?
    No that's a service.
    That the NRA keeps the motorways in extremely good (by international standards) condition for the sake of it?
    Have you ever read any of the EU directives on policy implementations for the PS. For example I suggest you read the one on road safety. Take a look at why they are instituting road safety protocols. It has nothing to do with public safety it is pure economics. Close a road for X hours reduces the transports of goods, economic loss. Speed of getting someone to hospital impacts their recovery time and the length of time they are out of work, economic loss. The death of someone due to road conditions / emergency response is a loss to the economy. Their replacement, length of absence, training all costs to the economy. This is all costed in the EU reports.
    Think about all the tax paid on petrol, v.r.t, car tax, tolls. It is possibly the worst economic return in the history of economics.
    The fact that few (and some do) parts generate direct income is a true statement to say they have no economic return is pathetic and would suggest to me you have not put any depth of thought into the purpose, responsibilities and necessity for the PS.
    They export nothing. That's a fact.

    They provide a baseline of services which would all be cheaper if they were privatised and contribute to a very expensive cost base.

    They have high opinions of themselves because the unions keep trying to tell them they are victims.


  • #740
    fliball123
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,625 ✭✭✭fliball123


    woodoo wrote: »
    Increments are a fundamental part of Public Service pay. They are not a ridiculous perk. It feels like such waste of time posting here nobody moves an inch from their original position.

    Free tea or coffee would be a perk, a free parking space, maybe flexi time could be considered a bit of a perk. Not increments.

    Sorry in the conditions the country finds itself in where everything else is being cut except for these increments, where we are broke and borrowing 2 million an hour to pay the bills and these pay rises are still being paid.. Thank God Newton isnt alive as PS pay would defy the laws of gravity.

    I never said increments were perks they are pay rises


  • #741
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 8,350 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Godge wrote: »
    No there is very little economic return from schools, hospitals, armies, policemen, firemen, prison officers, etc. but no society can survive without them.

    And yes, they deserve a significant amount more money than people on the dole, otherwise they would all sit on the dole as well and good luck with your fire when the uneducated gangs come round and beat you to a pulp and burn your house down.

    How much more do they deserve than there equivalent in the private sector?


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  • #742
    fliball123
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,625 ✭✭✭fliball123


    Godge wrote: »
    No there is very little economic return from schools, hospitals, armies, policemen, firemen, prison officers, :rolleyes:etc. but no society can survive without them.

    And yes, they deserve a significant amount more money than people on the dole, otherwise they would all sit on the dole as well and good luck with your fire when the uneducated gangs come round and beat you to a pulp and burn your house down.

    True but we are paying more than enough tax for these services and we have seen our taxes go up 5 years in a row whilst seeing these services diminish at the same time. The main reason being the ring fencing of wage and forced nature of cuts to the service as large % of the money spent cannot be cut


  • #743
    Tim Robbins
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,039 ✭✭✭Tim Robbins


    jh79 wrote: »
    How much more do they deserve than there equivalent in the private sector?

    There is no equivalent in the private sector. In the private sector you carry a much higher risk of redundancy and long hours when projects go hay wire.


  • #744
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    jh79 wrote: »
    How much more do they deserve than there equivalent in the private sector?

    Which fireman in the private sector do you want me to compare them to?

    Do you want the public sector hospital consultants to be paid the exorbitant rates that the private hospitals charge and earn?

    Should I compare the army to the IRA?


  • #745
    tayto lover
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 55,775 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    jh79 wrote: »
    How much more do they deserve than there equivalent in the private sector?

    What is the equivalent of a fireman, garda or prison officer in the Private Sector please?


  • #746
    frankosw
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 809 ✭✭✭frankosw


    fliball123 wrote: »
    I never said increments were perks they are pay rises


    No they're not..they're part of tha salary scale..a pay rise woulold put you into a different salary scale :rolleyes:


  • #747
    itzme
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 338 ✭✭itzme


    Tim Robbins wrote: »
    A lot of it is a waste of money. A lot of education now is free. For example coursera. And a lot of it is way cheaper if you go with say Open University.

    I think our educational standards are very low - mainly because the only thing teachers really care about is their wages. Most of them are prepared to lie and pretend they are catholics and teach young children there is an imaginary friend in the sky if the money is right. It's rare you meet a teacher with passion for what they are teaching and when you do, I feel sorry for them. Completely sneered at in a culture that is work to rule.

    No that's a service.

    Think about all the tax paid on petrol, v.r.t, car tax, tolls. It is possibly the worst economic return in the history of economics.


    They export nothing. That's a fact.

    They provide a baseline of services which would all be cheaper if they were privatised and contribute to a very expensive cost base.

    They have high opinions of themselves because the unions keep trying to tell them they are victims.

    I won't be engaging any more of your posts. You provide no evidence, facts or information to support your extreme, incorrect and unresearched views.


  • #748
    fliball123
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,625 ✭✭✭fliball123


    Godge wrote: »
    Which fireman in the private sector do you want me to compare them to?

    Do you want the public sector hospital consultants to be paid the exorbitant rates that the private hospitals charge and earn?

    Should I compare the army to the IRA?

    Compare them to the same people they were compared to under the 2 bouts of benchmarking?


  • #749
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    fliball123 wrote: »
    Sorry in the conditions the country finds itself in where everything else is being cut except for these increments, where we are broke and borrowing 2 million an hour to pay the bills and these pay rises are still being paid.. Thank God Newton isnt alive as PS pay would defy the laws of gravity.

    I never said increments were perks they are pay rises


    But you see, my point is that not everything else is being cut.

    There has been no cut to the contributory old-age pension.
    There has been no cut to tax relief for pension contributions.
    There has been no increase in income tax rates.
    There have only been minor cuts to social welfare rates.

    I could go on.


  • #750
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 8,350 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Godge wrote: »
    Which fireman in the private sector do you want me to compare them to?

    Do you want the public sector hospital consultants to be paid the exorbitant rates that the private hospitals charge and earn?

    Should I compare the army to the IRA?

    Clerical and Executive Officers, admin in the HSE, HR depts., state scientists etc all could be compared and adjusted to the average in private sector minus a premium for the perk of a secure job. They could get increase for all I know but at least it would be fair.


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  • #751
    fliball123
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,625 ✭✭✭fliball123


    frankosw wrote: »
    No they're not..they're part of tha salary scale..a pay rise woulold put you into a different salary scale :rolleyes:

    Does a pay increment increase that persons wage both nett and gross? yes
    Does the tax payer have to pay more for this? yes

    if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, 9 times out of 10 its a duck the other time its a public servant dressed as a duck :)

    Only the ps could call the pension levy a pay cut and a pay increment not a pay rise.


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