Advertisement
Help Keep Boards Alive. Support us by going ad free today. See here: https://subscriptions.boards.ie/.
If we do not hit our goal we will be forced to close the site.

Current status: https://keepboardsalive.com/

Annual subs are best for most impact. If you are still undecided on going Ad Free - you can also donate using the Paypal Donate option. All contribution helps. Thank you.
https://www.boards.ie/group/1878-subscribers-forum

Private Group for paid up members of Boards.ie. Join the club.
Hi all, please see this major site announcement: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058427594/boards-ie-2026

Croke Park II preliminary Talks started today

1…1819212324…159

Comments

  • #602
    Tim Robbins
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,039 ✭✭✭Tim Robbins


    Deleted User wrote: »
    How do you know? I haven't even mentioned what organisations these people work for. How on Earth can you make sweeping assumptions when you do not know anything at all about the people or the organisations? About their workloads, sectors, type of clients, methods of operation, personal work ethics, corporate values and histories? Not a thing, but you are still capable of just making up a "probable" cause for their being busy. You don't even know if they ARE busy.
    Because I live in Ireland.


  • #603
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Tim Robbins wrote: »
    Because I live in Ireland.

    What a stupid post!
    As it happens though, it pretty much sums up the thread very well though!


    I guess you don't need facts because you have your opinions and they have never been wrong.


  • #604
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 41,476 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Tim Robbins wrote: »
    Because I live in Ireland.

    To use the words of another poster :
    Head The Wall wrote: »
    Your idiotic post

    Is idiotic. No facts, just pure ignorant opinion.


  • #605
    Tim Robbins
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,039 ✭✭✭Tim Robbins


    kceire wrote: »
    To use the words of another poster :



    Is idiotic. No facts, just pure ignorant opinion.
    I am not going to waste my time pointing out to you what a mess the HSE (and nearly every other public sector body is) nearly all of which completely overspend and refuse to restructure.

    I use public transports, used public education, used public health and its always the same story.

    They all fall short.

    When people aren't happy with NTL or Ryanair we don't have to prove we are been fair to the workers we can just say they are crap. But as soon as you say anything critical about the public sector you get all these defensive people jumping down your throat. Asking for facts. This is ridiculous. What sort of facts do you want?

    If you were in a restuarant and unhappy with the meal and you called the manager down and said hey listen I am not going to come back here because I am unhappy. And then the manager said: "prove to me with facts that you realise my workers are busy". You'd laugh at him.


  • #606
    itzme
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 338 ✭✭itzme


    Head The Wall wrote: »
    Are you saying that teachers don't get these holidays. Your idiotic post seems to be claiming that the most days off anyone gets is 35 days which is not true.

    It's rare I agree with you Head the Wall, but you're spot on.
    Frank you have to admit that annual leave is not the same across the PS. Maybe it is across the Civil Service but not the whole PS. Teachers are the obvious proof of this.


  • Advertisement
  • #607
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Tim Robbins wrote: »
    I am not going to waste my time pointing out to you what a mess the HSE (and nearly every other public sector body is) nearly all of which completely overspend and refuse to restructure.

    I use public transports, used public education, used public health and its always the same story.

    They all fall short.

    When people aren't happy with NTL or Ryanair we don't have to prove we are been fair to the workers we can just say they are crap. But as soon as you say anything critical about the public sector you get all these defensive people jumping down your throat. Asking for facts. This is ridiculous. What sort of facts do you want?

    If you were in a restuarant and unhappy with the meal and you called the manager down and said hey listen I am not going to come back here because I am unhappy. And then the manager said: "prove to me with facts that you realise my workers are busy". You'd laugh at him.



    Please go to the UPC or any other customer forum on boards and see how posters do respond to others making unverifiable claims of bad service.
    If you do you will see that people who make claims of bad service are questioned by other posters and are asked for proof.


  • #608
    itzme
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 338 ✭✭itzme


    Tim Robbins wrote: »
    I am not going to waste my time pointing out to you what a mess the HSE (and nearly every other public sector body is) nearly all of which completely overspend and refuse to restructure.

    I use public transports, used public education, used public health and its always the same story.

    They all fall short.

    When people aren't happy with NTL or Ryanair we don't have to prove we are been fair to the workers we can just say they are crap. But as soon as you say anything critical about the public sector you get all these defensive people jumping down your throat. Asking for facts. This is ridiculous. What sort of facts do you want?

    If you were in a restuarant and unhappy with the meal and you called the manager down and said hey listen I am not going to come back here because I am unhappy. And then the manager said: "prove to me with facts that you realise my workers are busy". You'd laugh at him.

    Without trying to backseat mod or anything , I honestly think you need to read the forum charter
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056544387


  • #609
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 41,476 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Tim Robbins wrote: »
    I am not going to waste my time pointing out to you what a mess the HSE (and nearly every other public sector body is) nearly all of which completely overspend and refuse to restructure.

    Im not debating theres waste in places, im debating the fact that you use generalisations for the whole sector. Certain sections of the PS are being ran properly, and within budget.
    Tim Robbins wrote: »
    When people aren't happy with NTL or Ryanair we don't have to prove we are been fair to the workers we can just say they are crap. But as soon as you say anything critical about the public sector you get all these defensive people jumping down your throat. Asking for facts. This is ridiculous. What sort of facts do you want?

    Real facts, the truth. The average pay in local authorities is 39k, not the 49k that gets posted on these boards all the time, while i agree that the average PS pay is 49k, that includes Mr. Kenny, Mr. Gilmore, and every other high earner.
    Tim Robbins wrote: »
    If you were in a restuarant and unhappy with the meal and you called the manager down and said hey listen I am not going to come back here because I am unhappy. And then the manager said: "prove to me with facts that you realise my workers are busy". You'd laugh at him.

    The facts are enclosed in the meal you have just ordered. You cannot call the manage down and say the meal was horrible after eating every bit of it. If the meal is cold, you call the manager and show him, thats a fact. If the mean is under cooked, you call the manager and show him, thats a fact. If your ordered steak and you get a slice of roast beef, you call the manager and show him, thats a fact.


  • #610
    itzme
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 338 ✭✭itzme


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I haven't posted my opinions as fact. I've posted information. If the civil service no longer works a 34 hour and 45 minute standard working week, please say so and point to a source. If teachers and special needs assistants no longer get June (secondary only), July, August, two weeks at Easter, two weeks at Christmas and two mid-term breaks off, please say so and point to a source. At least the person who contested the holiday terms in third level offered an alternative figure (although not a source).

    The hypothesis from deise blue was that bank staff worked LESS than public servants. I'm open to accepting that if someone can show that it is true. However, it is clearly not true for civil servants, teachers and SNAs - and notwithstanding the counter claim by another poster I've no reason to believe it's any different in third level.

    If you want to support the hypothesis or counter my information, offer some information of your own. Or you could try showing that other groups in the public service work longer hours than those 110,000 civil servants and education staff, thereby driving up the overall public service average to MORE than bank staff.

    If you can't support your position with facts, you haven't got a position worth supporting.

    On the holiday terms at third level, I can't find anything online that states the annual leave conditions as a whole for lecturers and staff at universities. I know it does vary from university to university. For instance, I am entitled to 20 days annual leave. However, the university shuts over Xmas and Easter and I get around 8 further days for that. In other universities they don't have this policy but some increase the annual leave upwards to around 30 days. I would say that of all the staff that I know across our university there would be a 50/50 split between those that take those days and those that take around half.

    For IoTs http://www.ifut.ie/press-releases/press-release-20120420a.pdf. Their annual leave according to this link is just under 10 weeks in the summer. I don't know what their contracts say for Xmas or Easter or anything but I would be surprised if it was more than 2 more weeks during the year. So rounding up you're talking about 13 weeks (which is a hell of a lot don't get me wrong).

    On hours, research on hours of lecturers in Ireland http://www.ifut.ie/press-releases/press-release-20120420a.pdf.
    My own personal experience, having been in the sector for over a decade, this would be right. I would say that at least 1/4 of departments are researchers/lecturers who are workaholics working upwards of 60 hours most weeks. About a 1/5 are researchers/lecturers who are "comfortable" and are just doing enough work so they don't get in trouble and they definitely work less than their contracted hours. The rest are admin/technical staff who same as most jobs do their contracted hours or researchers/lecturers who work hard but would probably average 40+ hours a week.


  • #611
    Tim Robbins
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,039 ✭✭✭Tim Robbins


    kceire wrote: »
    The facts are enclosed in the meal you have just ordered. You cannot call the manage down and say the meal was horrible after eating every bit of it. If the meal is cold, you call the manager and show him, thats a fact. If the mean is under cooked, you call the manager and show him, thats a fact. If your ordered steak and you get a slice of roast beef, you call the manager and show him, thats a fact.
    If the service is poor, staff are grumpy and just generally unpleasant what do you do?

    You see there are matters of fact and matters of opinion. The public sector jump in the air if they come in on budget but what if you think the budget is way too high? Is that a fact or an opinion. Suffice to say I entered this thread sympathetic on the working hours. I work 60 hour weeks myself and it sucks. I hope the public sector stay on low hours - I am on your side.

    However, what really irks me is you say the slightest critical think about the "service" you are eaten alive. Now that's a fact!


  • Advertisement
  • #612
    tenton
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 87 ✭✭tenton


    frankosw wrote: »
    Annual leave is the same throughout the PS and its based on service and seniority.
    You have lost all credibility there. Teachers are but just one obvious example of a large group who get a lot more holidays than you claim.

    Conditions etc vary throughout the public service....ask those who took their half hour to get their cheque cashed ( even though they have been paid by direct debit for years ) or those who got / took their half day for shopping at Christmas.
    What an overpaid underworked mess.


  • #613
    itzme
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 338 ✭✭itzme


    Tim Robbins wrote: »
    It's only slightly wrong. They get 18 weeks or whatever. 20 weeks is five months. Point is their holidays are massive and I'm jealous.

    Please back this up with some evidence. I'm assuming that you are still talking about IoTs only. I have provided a link showing they are contracted with 10 weeks over the summer. I can't find what they get during the year, but considering that off-term time is less than 4 weeks during the year it can't be greater than 14 weeks. That would mean your 20 weeks is over 40% higher. That's not slightly wrong!

    Do you accept that university staff get in the region of 30 days a year?


  • #614
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 41,476 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    tenton wrote: »
    Conditions etc vary throughout the public service....ask those who took their half hour to get their cheque cashed ( even though they have been paid by direct debit for years ) or those who got / took their half day for shopping at Christmas.

    Doesnt happen anymore Jimmy, and you know that.


  • #615
    fliball123
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,625 ✭✭✭fliball123


    RobbieTheRobber wrote: »
    Isn't mandatory the same as forced redundancy?
    Let me try and rephrase my question
    Do you agree that government should be able to make staff redundant to cut costs in the Public service?

    Yes they should but they should not be offering golden handshakes, just give them what is due under the rules of redundancy, but before making anyone redundant there is a serious shortfall in areas within the PS if people can be redeployed do so. But wages need to be brought down across the board this is the best way of saving money as it saves on pensions when the ps retire and also cuts out redundancy , golden handshakes and people joining the dole queue. We need some joined up thinking when it comes to looking at the over spend side. As I say moving expenses from Column A to Column B and saying we have done our bit is not going to appease the tax payer anymore


  • #616
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 8,350 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    kceire wrote: »
    Doesnt happen anymore Jimmy, and you know that.

    Maybe not officially, I know one department were management gave an extra days xmas holiday by allowing the staff to clock in and then leave. I think it was xmas eve.


  • #617
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 41,476 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    jh79 wrote: »
    Maybe not officially, I know one department were management gave an extra days xmas holiday by allowing the staff to clock in and then leave. I think it was xmas eve.

    Thats against the law and should be reported if you know this department. We worked till 2pm on Xmas Eve here in Dublin.
    fliball123 wrote: »
    Yes they should but they should not be offering golden handshakes, just give them what is due under the rules of redundancy, but before making anyone redundant there is a serious shortfall in areas within the PS if people can be redeployed do so. But wages need to be brought down across the board this is the best way of saving money as it saves on pensions when the ps retire and also cuts out redundancy , golden handshakes and people joining the dole queue. We need some joined up thinking when it comes to looking at the over spend side. As I say moving expenses from Column A to Column B and saying we have done our bit is not going to appease the tax payer anymore

    In fairness, the typical PS employee doesnt get these golden handshakes. It should be stopped at the higher end, but your local street sweeper, or GO doesnt and never will get these.


  • #618
    Tim Robbins
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,039 ✭✭✭Tim Robbins


    itzme wrote: »
    Do you accept that university staff get in the region of 30 days a year?
    I heard University staff only get 25. 30 = cool. But just don't expect to be paid the same as those who only get 20 days.


  • #619
    fliball123
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,625 ✭✭✭fliball123


    kceire wrote: »
    Thats against the law and should be reported if you know this department. We worked till 2pm on Xmas Eve here in Dublin.



    In fairness, the typical PS employee doesnt get these golden handshakes. It should be stopped at the higher end, but your local street sweeper, or GO doesnt and never will get these.

    Well the last bout of redundancies for the bog standard HSE employee got it. As I say imagine taking the same approach on the tax side as the gov seem to take with dealing with the cost side and telling them sorry I am not paying property, USC, ROAD tax or VAT as I already pay enough in Income tax


  • #620
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 41,476 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    fliball123 wrote: »
    Well the last bout of redundancies for the bog standard HSE employee got it. As I say imagine taking the same approach on the tax side as the gov seem to take with dealing with the cost side and telling them sorry I am not paying property, USC, ROAD tax or VAT as I already pay enough in Income tax

    Thats a voluntary redundacy scheme. Operated by many companies across the public and private sector. The new scheme being implemented shortly will be cost neutrel in 3 years IIRC. Thats a saving going forward also.


  • #621
    fliball123
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,625 ✭✭✭fliball123


    kceire wrote: »
    Thats a voluntary redundacy scheme. Operated by many companies across the public and private sector. The new scheme being implemented shortly will be cost neutrel in 3 years IIRC. Thats a saving going forward also.

    Hang on it was proven that this debacle saved F.all when the costs of people going to pension, the dole, the golden handshake and redundnacies not to meontion the fact that due to the narrow thinking of the gov people were rehired and some had to be replaced..The Troika even pointed out that it was a very expensive exercise which should not be repeated.


  • Advertisement
  • #622
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 41,476 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    fliball123 wrote: »
    Hang on it was proven that this debacle saved F.all when the costs of people going to pension, the dole, the golden handshake and redundnacies not to meontion the fact that due to the narrow thinking of the gov people were rehired and some had to be replaced..The Troika even pointed out that it was a very expensive exercise which should not be repeated.

    +1

    Thats why if you read my post, you will see i stated the new scheme.
    The department reiterated that the scheme would pay for itself in two years on a gross basis, and three years on a net basis.

    Source


  • #623
    fliball123
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,625 ✭✭✭fliball123


    kceire wrote: »
    +1

    Thats why if you read my post, you will see i stated the new scheme.



    Source

    KC nothing is writing and do you not think that the unions are going to be putting a gun to the head of the gov saying if you want people to leave you must pay a premium.


  • #624
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 41,476 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    fliball123 wrote: »
    KC nothing is writing and do you not think that the unions are going to be putting a gun to the head of the gov saying if you want people to leave you must pay a premium.

    They will get the same deal as the 2010 offer and the 2012 offer.
    3 weeks pay plus 2 weeks for every year capped at 2 years salary IMO.


  • #625
    sarumite
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,909 ✭✭✭sarumite


    kceire wrote: »
    +1

    Thats why if you read my post, you will see i stated the new scheme.



    Source

    Though as Godge pointed out earlier in this thread, that assumes that there is no additional costs (will those who take it be claiming social welfare for example?).


  • #626
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    Getting back on topic:), it will be interesting to see how the Government will be able to proceed with an agenda that reduces pay. I have just been reading an article in Industrial Relations News (behind paywall so can't provide link) that states that:

    Dunnes Stores will increase pay by 3% from 1 Feb 2013
    Tesco will increase pay by 2% from 1 Jan 2013
    M&S have increased pay by 2.5% from 1 April 2012
    Debenhams will increase pay by 2% from 1 September 2013

    There are about 32,000 people employed in these companies affected by these increases.

    It also says about other retail companies that "A decision on a 3% claim at Penneys is expected to be reached next month, while a meeting is to take place this week regarding the processing of the pay claim at Boots.
    At Brown Thomas a 2% pay increase proposal is expected to be furnished shortly; management and union representatives convened at the LRC last week on the matter. A pay and increments freeze has been extended three times at Brown Thomas since 2009"

    Most of the retail companies froze pay at the start of the crisis - they did not cut pay or impose a pension levy as in the public sector. In a climate of pay rises resuming in the private sector where only pay freezes were in place, the public sector unions will be under pressure from their members who have suffered a pay cut and the pension levy not to make further concessions. These talks may have a long way to go yet.


  • #627
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 41,476 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Godge wrote: »
    Getting back on topic:), it will be interesting to see how the Government will be able to proceed with an agenda that reduces pay. I have just been reading an article in Industrial Relations News (behind paywall so can't provide link) that states that:

    Dunnes Stores will increase pay by 3% from 1 Feb 2013
    Tesco will increase pay by 2% from 1 Jan 2013
    M&S have increased pay by 2.5% from 1 April 2012
    Debenhams will increase pay by 2% from 1 September 2013

    There are about 32,000 people employed in these companies affected by these increases.

    It also says about other retail companies that "A decision on a 3% claim at Penneys is expected to be reached next month, while a meeting is to take place this week regarding the processing of the pay claim at Boots.
    At Brown Thomas a 2% pay increase proposal is expected to be furnished shortly; management and union representatives convened at the LRC last week on the matter. A pay and increments freeze has been extended three times at Brown Thomas since 2009"

    Most of the retail companies froze pay at the start of the crisis - they did not cut pay or impose a pension levy as in the public sector. In a climate of pay rises resuming in the private sector where only pay freezes were in place, the public sector unions will be under pressure from their members who have suffered a pay cut and the pension levy not to make further concessions. These talks may have a long way to go yet.

    ESB has also had a pay freeze since 2009 and an internal VES or VIS scheme aimed at reducing numbers within particular sections/subsidies of ESB have failed to get the required numbers to leave on the voluntary offer. They are now talking about oay cuts in these sections, though i do believe its at the higher end of the pay scale.

    No link either as its first hand information from staff within.


  • #628
    noodler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,009 ✭✭✭✭noodler


    Godge wrote: »
    Getting back on topic:), it will be interesting to see how the Government will be able to proceed with an agenda that reduces pay. I have just been reading an article in Industrial Relations News (behind paywall so can't provide link) that states that:

    Dunnes Stores will increase pay by 3% from 1 Feb 2013
    Tesco will increase pay by 2% from 1 Jan 2013
    M&S have increased pay by 2.5% from 1 April 2012
    Debenhams will increase pay by 2% from 1 September 2013

    There are about 32,000 people employed in these companies affected by these increases.

    It also says about other retail companies that "A decision on a 3% claim at Penneys is expected to be reached next month, while a meeting is to take place this week regarding the processing of the pay claim at Boots.
    At Brown Thomas a 2% pay increase proposal is expected to be furnished shortly; management and union representatives convened at the LRC last week on the matter. A pay and increments freeze has been extended three times at Brown Thomas since 2009"

    Most of the retail companies froze pay at the start of the crisis - they did not cut pay or impose a pension levy as in the public sector. In a climate of pay rises resuming in the private sector where only pay freezes were in place, the public sector unions will be under pressure from their members who have suffered a pay cut and the pension levy not to make further concessions. These talks may have a long way to go yet.


    Ehh.....increments?

    Strawman argument though and you know it.


    The State first and foremost can only pay what it can afford.

    The comparisons you choose are ridiculous.


  • #629
    fliball123
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,625 ✭✭✭fliball123


    Godge wrote: »
    Getting back on topic:), it will be interesting to see how the Government will be able to proceed with an agenda that reduces pay. I have just been reading an article in Industrial Relations News (behind paywall so can't provide link) that states that:

    Dunnes Stores will increase pay by 3% from 1 Feb 2013
    Tesco will increase pay by 2% from 1 Jan 2013
    M&S have increased pay by 2.5% from 1 April 2012
    Debenhams will increase pay by 2% from 1 September 2013

    There are about 32,000 people employed in these companies affected by these increases.

    It also says about other retail companies that "A decision on a 3% claim at Penneys is expected to be reached next month, while a meeting is to take place this week regarding the processing of the pay claim at Boots.
    At Brown Thomas a 2% pay increase proposal is expected to be furnished shortly; management and union representatives convened at the LRC last week on the matter. A pay and increments freeze has been extended three times at Brown Thomas since 2009"

    Most of the retail companies froze pay at the start of the crisis - they did not cut pay or impose a pension levy as in the public sector. In a climate of pay rises resuming in the private sector where only pay freezes were in place, the public sector unions will be under pressure from their members who have suffered a pay cut and the pension levy not to make further concessions. These talks may have a long way to go yet.

    Now list how all of these companies turned a profit last year and are not borrowing 2 million an hour to pay the bills?


  • #630
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    sarumite wrote: »
    Though as Godge pointed out earlier in this thread, that assumes that there is no additional costs (will those who take it be claiming social welfare for example?).

    How would we know prior to the person taking redundancy.
    Of course a portion of those made redundant would go on to welfare, as is their right and the right of all workers in Ireland.
    http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/social_welfare_payments/unemployed_people/jobseekers_benefit.html


  • Advertisement
  • #631
    noodler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,009 ✭✭✭✭noodler


    fliball123 wrote: »
    Now list how all of these companies turned a profit last year and are not borrowing 2 million an hour to pay the bills?

    Also a good point.


Advertisement