Playoffs 2012

Johnny_Fontane · 22-01-2013 4:23pm

mongoman wrote: »

Your trying too hard mate.

ha ha.....I was getting bored with the top 5 argument, so I thought I'd liven it up!

Dohnny Jepp · 22-01-2013 5:16pm

Welker has an argument to be the best slot reciever in the game!

I think these 5 receivers are more talented than Welker

- Megatron, Andre Johnson, Larry Fitz, Reggie Wayne and Jennings

and then there are guys like AJ, Cruz and J Jones etc who have looked extremely impressive and if they do it again next year have a case to be considered better than Welker.

The thing is however Welker is perfect for the Patriots offence. He fits into better than maybe any other receiver in the league. So although I don't believe he is top 5 in talent, maybe not even top 10, I do believe that he would work better in the pats offence then any other receiver would.

matthew8 · 22-01-2013 5:56pm

I wouldn't count Welker as a top 5, but I'd find it seriously hard to even put him out of the top 10, let alone 20. He's also very valuable as a returner (like Harvin).

Hazys · 22-01-2013 6:03pm

Its a silly argument. Calvin Johnson and Wes Welker are completely different WRs. It's all about your definition of WR and what scheme an offense runs. Trying to find a common ground for WR to provide a ranking is highly objective. Welker is by far the best 'Slot' receiver while Johnson is the best 'Prototype' receiver. How you rank depends on how much you personally value the importance of a prototype WR over a Slot WR and vica versa.

Welker can do a lot of things Johnson can't do and Johnson can do a lot of what Welker can't do.

davyjose · 22-01-2013 6:16pm

Chucky the tree wrote: »

How has he been the most important receiver in the league? Looking at his numbers you can see he struggles to get open in the redzone which I think is a big negative.

Because he's pretty much the most reliable receiver in the league. No receiver consistently gets his hands on the ball more than Welker. That speaks to me about his importance.

He's got more TD receptions than megatron this year so I'm not really buying your logic. Brady has a lot more targets than Stafford who relies heavily on Johnson.

Justin10 · 22-01-2013 7:02pm

davyjose wrote: »

Because he's pretty much the most reliable receiver in the league. No receiver consistently gets his hands on the ball more than Welker. That speaks to me about his importance.

He's got more TD receptions than megatron this year so I'm not really buying your logic. Brady has a lot more targets than Stafford who relies heavily on Johnson.

You are saying you would have Welker ahead of Calvin Johnson???

Also your post is a contradiction, everyone agrees Welker is a good route runner, but you clearly said Stafford targets Johnson, which is correct and defenders still cant stop him. Defences have to account for Gronk, Hernandez Lloyd and Welker

davyjose · 22-01-2013 7:10pm

Rochey18 wrote: »

You are saying you would have Welker ahead of Calvin Johnson???

Also your post is a contradiction, everyone agrees Welker is a good route runner, but you clearly said Stafford targets Johnson, which is correct and defenders still cant stop him. Defences have to account for Gronk, Hernandez Lloyd and Welker

Where did I say that?

Welker's ability in the red zone was questioned. I merely offered context, and followed it up by the fact that Brady has many other targets in the endzone.

Masked Man · 22-01-2013 7:19pm

davyjose wrote: »

Where did I say that?

Welker's ability in the red zone was questioned. I merely offered context, and followed it up by the fact that Brady has many other targets in the endzone.

We also scored more rushing TDs than anybody else.

Justin10 · 22-01-2013 7:20pm

Clearly Brady targets Gronk in the redzone.

And clearly we all know the 6 TDs by Calvin was poor, people even claiming the Madden curse got him, Welker only had one more.

Welker has never got to double digits either.
If you compare the list of receivers from the Lions to the Pats, the target rate to each receiver is pretty similar.

Chucky the tree · 22-01-2013 7:20pm

davyjose wrote: »

Because he's pretty much the most reliable receiver in the league. No receiver consistently gets his hands on the ball more than Welker. That speaks to me about his importance.

He's got more TD receptions than megatron this year so I'm not really buying your logic. Brady has a lot more targets than Stafford who relies heavily on Johnson.

Most of this post makes little sense to me. I never said he wasn't important, just not the most important. I'd consider guys who get more yards and points to be more important than a guy who gets more catches tbh. Not sure how you are not buying my logic, look at the numbers Welker has had - one season where he has been top 10 in TDs in the NFL, zero where he was top 5.

Hazys · 22-01-2013 7:24pm

Rochey18 wrote: »

You are saying you would have Welker ahead of Calvin Johnson???

Also your post is a contradiction, everyone agrees Welker is a good route runner, but you clearly said Stafford targets Johnson, which is correct and defenders still cant stop him. Defences have to account for Gronk, Hernandez Lloyd and Welker

I dont understand this point.

Welker still gets more catches than Johnson even tho Johnson is basically the sole target of the Lions' offense and Welker has to contend with Gronk, Hernandez and Lloyd for catches.

Justin10 · 22-01-2013 7:27pm

Hazys wrote: »

I dont understand this point.

Welker still gets more catches than Johnson even tho Johnson is basically the sole target of the Lions' offense and Welker has to contend with Gronk, Hernandez and Lloyd for catches.

The second part of that just isnt true. Stafford threw the ball 100 times more then Brady and the balls throw to all the receivers are pretty similar.

Also Johnson average 5 yards more per catch.

Justin10 · 22-01-2013 7:30pm

Remember Stafford threw the ball 100 times more.
Also to compare Calvin and Welker as WR is like Apple and Orange.

Targeted
Welker 174
Lloyd 130
Gronk 79
Hernandez 84
Woodhead 55

Calvin 205
Pettigrew 100
Schffler 84
Bell 68
Young 56

Hazys · 22-01-2013 7:49pm

Rochey18 wrote: »

Remember Stafford threw the ball 100 times more.
Also to compare Calvin and Welker as WR is like Apple and Orange.

Targeted
Welker 174
Lloyd 130
Gronk 79
Hernandez 84
Woodhead 55

Calvin 205
Pettigrew 100
Schffler 84
Bell 68
Young 56

I don't understand how the targeted numbers prove that the Lion's other receivers are same caliber as the Patriots. Stats can be extremely misleading and can be used to prove anything.

There is a lot of times Welker is open but because Gronk or Hernandez is also open, the pass goes to Gronk or Hernandez hurting Welker's numbers.

On the other side, there would be times when all Lion's WRs are covered (including Johnson) and Stafford just flings it to Johnson boosting his numbers.

I agree with you that it's a bit crazy to compare Welker and Johnson because even tho they are both WRs, they are completely different football players. At the end of the day, when saying who is better has a lot to do with personal preference.

BTW, i think Johnson is a better WR but Welker is around the Top 5 mark in the NFL.

Justin10 · 22-01-2013 7:57pm

The target stat is to show the ball is clearly spread around the offense as much as New England.

It is indeed crazy to compare the two but it's ridiculous to claim welker is better.

I'm sure he is top 10 in 99% in people's mind. Just depends where on that list to personal preference. To be he would be low enough

DBBacker · 22-01-2013 8:02pm

matthew8 wrote: »

I wouldn't count Welker as a top 5, but I'd find it seriously hard to even put him out of the top 10, let alone 20. He's also very valuable as a returner (like Harvin).

I rarely defend any Pats players or the organization itself being from New York but I am very interested to see what 20 Wide Receivers you would have ahead of Wes Welker. On average every season in the NFL between 20-25 Receivers have over 1000 yards in the season and Welker is always within the Top 15 of these. Welker has only failed to do this once as a regular starter with the Patriots in 6 seasons. Add the amount of catches he has consistently made and difference he makes as a slot to the Patriots it is hard to say he is not Top 10 never mind Top 20.

Pains me to say it that Wes Welker is one of the best Receivers in the NFL and probably the best slot in the NFL at the moment. Do I think he is top 5? I don't. Do I think he is top 10? Of course he is not questions asked.

davyjose · 22-01-2013 8:42pm

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Most of this post makes little sense to me. I never said he wasn't important, just not the most important. I'd consider guys who get more yards and points to be more important than a guy who gets more catches tbh. Not sure how you are not buying my logic, look at the numbers Welker has had - one season where he has been top 10 in TDs in the NFL, zero where he was top 5.

The argument is getting quite convoluted.

Let me clarify:
If I was building a franchise tomorrow, and I had the pick of any players in the NFL, under my Wide Receivers column, Welker would be in the top 5.

Is he better than Calvin Johnson? No. No way. But comparing end zone stats is silly because Welker isn't a big endzone target. It's not where he excels.

Morrisseeee · 22-01-2013 8:57pm

Q. Who had the better season, Manning or Brady ?
/I know, I know, it's a loaded gun, so......think about your answers before 'ranting/raving'

A_Sober_Paddy · 22-01-2013 9:05pm

Morrisseeee wrote: »

Q. Who had the better season, Manning or Brady ?
/I know, I know, it's a loaded gun, so......think about your answers before 'ranting/raving'

Manning, when you consider he was out all last year and he joined a new team this year and had a fantastic season

Hazys · 22-01-2013 9:28pm

Morrisseeee wrote: »

Q. Who had the better season, Manning or Brady ?
/I know, I know, it's a loaded gun, so......think about your answers before 'ranting/raving'

Meh, mostly the same. Both we're pretty good in the regular season, both will be very disappointed with losing in the playoffs.

TBH who cares? when we have the greatest of all time debate between the two, i doubt either camp will be using this season as part of their arguments.

Ares · 22-01-2013 10:13pm

Hazys wrote: »

Its a silly argument. Calvin Johnson and Wes Welker are completely different WRs. It's all about your definition of WR and what scheme an offense runs. Trying to find a common ground for WR to provide a ranking is highly objective. Welker is by far the best 'Slot' receiver while Johnson is the best 'Prototype' receiver. How you rank depends on how much you personally value the importance of a prototype WR over a Slot WR and vica versa.

Welker can do a lot of things Johnson can't do and Johnson can do a lot of what Welker can't do.

I disagree. Johnson often lines up in the slot and plays some of his best stuff there. The amount of times Calvin runs over the middle for 8-15 yards is ridiculous. He's a brilliant slot reciever.

There is a lot of things Welker can't do that Calvin can, but there are few things that Welker can do that Calvin can't also do.

Son Of A Vidic · 22-01-2013 10:21pm

Fair play John..

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000129368/article/john-harbaugh-bill-belichick-was-classy-after-game

Harbaugh went out of his way to compliment Bill Belichick for what the Patriots coach said during their postgame conversation.

"Coach Belichick after the game was so classy with what he said," Harbaugh said. This is the second time Harbaugh went out of his way to mention the conversation. It's an interesting counterpart to the criticism that Belichick has taken for his usual postgame interview no-show with CBS.

"I'll treasure that conversation forever," Harbaugh told SI.com's Peter King. "Before the game, we talked, and he said maybe we should just skip the postgame handshake because it's such a circus. I said I didn't know; I thought we should do it, it's just the right thing to do. And we did."

"He was so classy, so gracious. Complimentary about how we played, about our game plan, about how tough it is to play us. I told him how much we pattern our organization around theirs, how much we study them."

adrian522 · 22-01-2013 10:23pm

John?

D3PO · 22-01-2013 10:25pm

Lads all this top 5 top 10 stuff is crap.

You cant compare an X or Y reciever with each other. Thats like arguing whos a better DE and comparing 3-4 and 4-3 guys you cant you just cant do so objectively.

Welker is the top Y reciever in the NFL right now. The only one that I think is even close to him is Amendola. I believe he could potentially put up Welker type numbers int he Pats offense if he stayed healthy but theres no other reciever in the league I think could do so in the slot.

Son Of A Vidic · 22-01-2013 10:38pm

adrian522 wrote: »

John?

Ya that's who I meant.

Anyway, Jim or John, John or Jim, it's the same person/doppelganger.:D

Morrisseeee · 23-01-2013 10:17am

Hazys wrote: »

when we have the greatest of all time debate between the two, i doubt either camp will be using this season as part of their arguments.

Actually that's what I was targeting the debate at, ie. does this season (& playoffs) have a say in the overall debate between the two. I think it does.

Consider the situation both were in this season, Manning (injury/new-team) considered for MVP, leads his team to 13-3 (No. 1 seeds) and in the playoff game led his team to a 7pt lead with a minute left (also throwing for 3 TDs). He made one mistake, the Int that effectively ended the game.

Consider Brady, with the same team, same set-up for the last gazillion years, had a good season, and No. 2 seeds, but failed badly in the playoff game against the Ravens.

If we use that Ravens defense as a barometer, then Brady looks even worse.

Ok ok, it looks like I'm Brady-bashing, but I think I'm just trying to figure out why he hasn't delivered in the last 7 seasons, especially this season with the No. 1 offense in the NFL.

I'm also asking myself if Brady was in Manning's situation would he have delivered the same results ? and as a follow on from that: how would he perform without Belichick, would his be a better QB or worse ?

I'll summarize and say that I think Manning (after this season) has edged slightly ahead in the overall debate between the two.

BizzyC · 23-01-2013 11:04am

Manning had the no.2 defense in football to help him out.

It's been the same with the Patriots the past 7 seasons, they get beat when they face a team with a tough defense in the playoffs.

The Pats D cant stop anyone, which means Brady has to continuously air the ball out, which will get shut down when playing a top D.
Asking someone to put up 30+ point every single week, otherwise your team loses, is a lot to ask in the NFL.

Hidalgo · 23-01-2013 11:04am

Morrisseeee wrote: »

Actually that's what I was targeting the debate at, ie. does this season (& playoffs) have a say in the overall debate between the two. I think it does.

Consider the situation both were in this season, Manning (injury/new-team) considered for MVP, leads his team to 13-3 (No. 1 seeds) and in the playoff game led his team to a 7pt lead with a minute left (also throwing for 3 TDs). He made one mistake, the Int that effectively ended the game.

Consider Brady, with the same team, same set-up for the last gazillion years, had a good season, and No. 2 seeds, but failed badly in the playoff game against the Ravens.

If we use that Ravens defense as a barometer, then Brady looks even worse.

Ok ok, it looks like I'm Brady-bashing, but I think I'm just trying to figure out why he hasn't delivered in the last 7 seasons, especially this season with the No. 1 offense in the NFL.
I'm also asking myself if Brady was in Manning's situation would he have delivered the same results ? and as a follow on from that: how would he perform without Belichick, would his be a better QB or worse ?

I'll summarize and say that I think Manning (after this season) has edged slightly ahead in the overall debate between the two.

Did manning not throw 2 interceptions V the Ravens with 14 pts coming from them??

IMO Manning has had a better season, coming back from neck injury and fitting into a new team. Even if he hadn't been out injured, the way he seamlessly fitted into a new team was very good

mongoman · 23-01-2013 11:32am

Morrisseeee wrote: »

Consider Brady, with the same team, same set-up for the last gazillion years,

Wha? Same team? No it's not the same team. They had a virtual new O line installed this season when they lost some key players. Now I'm sure Pats fans can offer more detail there. The only thing that probably hasn't changed is their shyte secondary. You blaming Brady for that? Their secondary cost them the game, is that Brady's fault? When I seen Talib going out, i knew they were f****d.

Morrisseeee wrote: »

Ok ok, it looks like I'm Brady-bashing,

It doesn't 'look' like anything, you are.

Morrisseeee wrote: »

but I think I'm just trying to figure out why he hasn't delivered in the last 7 seasons, especially this season with the No. 1 offense in the NFL.

Of course Brady has had nothing to do with it being the number 1 offence in the league. And year in year out, it consistently is a top offense :rolleyes:

Morrisseeee wrote: »

I'm also asking myself if Brady was in Manning's situation would he have delivered the same results ?

What results?

Morrisseeee wrote: »

I'll summarize and say that I think Manning (after this season) has edged slightly ahead in the overall debate between the two.

As he loses yet another play off game and Brady breaks more records, like most play-off wins in history and most post season passing yards ect. As a 49'ers fan, I never thought I'd see anyone overtake my beloved Joe Montana's phenomenal record. Give me Brady any day over Kaepernick.

Brady and Manning will go down amongst the greatest QB's to ever play the game. Just get over your Brady hate ffs, I and most people are getting tired of reading this shít.

Morrisseeee · 23-01-2013 12:28pm

The Broncos D in the playoff game went from no. 2 to no. 32, so Peyton had no help there, in fact the D practically handed the game to the Ravens, on the other hand the Pats D played as good as the could against the Ravens, there weren't many 'easy' TD scores. Yes I take your point that in the regular season our D played well but still our offense put up a nice overall avg no. of points.

Manning threw one Int that led to 7pts not 14, and that was a tip, many balls are tipped and it's just unfortunate/fortunate if it's run in for a TD.

>> not fair mongoman, I pointed out that I'm NOT a Brady hater, actually when both QB's were in their prime I wasn't a huge fan of either, I had massive respect for both, but found it hard to determine if one was greater than the other. I think after this season I have a new perspective, Manning's value went up, Brady's went down.

Playoffs 2012

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