Croke Park II preliminary Talks started today

woodoo · 22-01-2013 10:45PM

deise blue wrote: »

AIB & Bank of Ireland both operate a standard 32.5 hour week , obviously there is variable hours - as a departmental worker in BOI I had the option of commencing work at 8.30 , 9 or 9.30.

I enjoyed a 15 minute break in the morning & afternoon & an hour for lunch , I availed of the 8.30 start & finished at 4.30 , when overtime was required it was recorded from 4.30 on & paid at the appropriate rate.

My wife currently works in a Dublin city centre branch & commences work at 9.30 & enjoys the same lunch & tea breaks - it is an exceptional day if she leaves the branch after 5.15.

The standard week to which I refer is a registered agreement between the Banks in question & the IBOA - I'm sure either party can confirm same to you if you are in any doubt.

By the way I have no reason to believe that other banks operating in the state don't have the same standard week.

You are making me even more resolute to fight to keep the 35 hr week.

In fact we should look for a reduction

Jokes aside i'm going to contact my union representative in the morning to make sure banking hours are mentioned during negotiations.

deise blue · 22-01-2013 10:47PM

Deleted User wrote: »

The IBOA doesn't agree with you.

http://www.iboa.ie/join/howiboacanhelpy.html

For ease of reference:

"By law the average working week is set at a maximum of 48 hours. However, most IBOA members work a basic 35-hour week. If overtime is necessary, it should be paid at one and a half times the hourly rate for any hours worked over and above the 35-hour basic. "

You are quite right , however the 35 hour week referred to above does not include the two 15 minute breaks enjoyed by Bank employees as a matter of practice & precedent.

5 x 30 minutes daily = 2.5 hours which when subtracted from the above mentioned basis gives the standard working week of 32.5 hours .

22-01-2013 11:00PM

deise blue wrote: »

You are quite right

I know.

Anyway, what does this have to do with Croke Park: Return Of The Living Dead, or whatever it's called?

deise blue · 22-01-2013 11:07PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I know.

Anyway, what does this have to do with Croke Park: Return Of The Living Dead, or whatever it's called?

Simply pointing out that large swathes of the private sector work enjoy favourable work/life balanced hours - more power to them.

You sometimes get the impression from a variety of sources that it is only the public sector that enjoy such balanced working hours & are somehow out of kilter with the entirety of the workforce in general.

22-01-2013 11:12PM

deise blue wrote: »

You sometimes get the impression from a variety of sources that it is only the public sector that enjoy such balanced working hours.

Everyone's life is so hard, so to speak. I know people who work in the banks who complain about how tough it is, but as you say their working week is no longer than a civil servant's, and for years they got cheap loans and subsidised lunches. That's before mentioning the high salaries and gilt-edged pension benefits.

Mind you, I also know a couple of people who work a 32.5 hour week in an office in the public sector - and also claim their entitlement to two tea-breaks a day. But they say they're run off their feet, and maybe they are.

deise blue · 22-01-2013 11:19PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Everyone's life is so hard, so to speak. I know people who work in the banks who complain about how tough it is, but as you say their working week is no longer than a civil servant's, and for years they got cheap loans and subsidised lunches. That's before mentioning the high salaries and gilt-edged pension benefits.

Mind you, I also know a couple of people who work a 32.5 hour week in an office in the public sector - and also claim their entitlement to two tea-breaks a day. But they say they're run off their feet, and maybe they are.

No quibble at all with what you say with one exception - the standard Banking week is LESS that that of your average PS employee .

22-01-2013 11:38PM

deise blue wrote: »

No quibble at all with what you say with one exception - the standard Banking week is LESS that that of your average PS employee .

Is there a source for the standard working week of the average public service employee?

Is there such a thing as "the average public service employee", anyway?

Most civil servants have a shorter working week than the banks.

It's hard to tell with teachers and lecturers, but even if they have a longer working week than BOI and AIB, I reckon the 15 to 20 weeks off more than counterbalances that.

That covers off about 100,000 people or so. Anyone else care to offer information (not blind prejudices, please) about all the others? Gardaí? Military? Prisons? Health workers? Local authorities?

deise blue · 22-01-2013 11:43PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Is there a source for the standard working week of the average public service employee?

Is there such a thing as "the average public service employee", anyway?

Most civil servants have a shorter working week than the banks.

It's hard to tell with teachers and lecturers, but even if they have a longer working week than BOI and AIB, I reckon the 15 to 20 weeks off more than counterbalances that.

That covers off about 100,000 people or so. Anyone else care to offer information (not blind prejudices, please) about all the others? Gardaí? Military? Prisons? Health workers? Local authorities?

To add to the information requested could you publish your source that confirms that " most civil servants have a shorter working week than the banks " - not blind prejudice please !

Gumbo · 22-01-2013 11:45PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Is there a source for the standard working week of the average public service employee?

Is there such a thing as "the average public service employee", anyway?

Most civil servants have a shorter working week than the banks.

It's hard to tell with teachers and lecturers, but even if they have a longer working week than BOI and AIB, I reckon the 15 to 20 weeks off more than counterbalances that.

That covers off about 100,000 people or so. Anyone else care to offer information (not blind prejudices, please) about all the others? Gardaí? Military? Prisons? Health workers? Local authorities?

Sorry, but I think with this one post you've lost all creditability.

Godge · 23-01-2013 12:20AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Is there a source for the standard working week of the average public service employee?

Is there such a thing as "the average public service employee", anyway?

Most civil servants have a shorter working week than the banks.

It's hard to tell with teachers and lecturers, but even if they have a longer working week than BOI and AIB, I reckon the 15 to 20 weeks off more than counterbalances that.

That covers off about 100,000 people or so. Anyone else care to offer information (not blind prejudices, please) about all the others? Gardaí? Military? Prisons? Health workers? Local authorities?

Nurses work a 37.5 hour week.
NCHDs work for ever if you believe them.
Weren't local authorities in the labour court last year and had a minimum 34 hours imposed.
Teachers work 22 hours plus all the time in the world for preparation and correction.
Gardai work 39, but go to the chipper halfway through the shift (only joking lads)

tenton · 23-01-2013 12:30AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Is there a source for the standard working week of the average public service employee?

there was a source quoted earlier in the thread - the statistic from the CSO, no less - which put the average public sector working week at less than 32 hours.
They should know, the CSO. Its easy enough to google them if you want to.

Actually I quoted it in post no. 369 "Average weekly paid hours fell to 31.6 in Q4 2011"

http://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/releasespublications/documents/earnings/2011/earnlabcosts_q42011.pdf

Thats the "Average weekly paid hours". The actual number of hours worked on average, may of course be lower....

No wonder the lender of last resort, the IMF had to step in to "rescue" the country / lend us more to just keep going.

23-01-2013 12:50AM

deise blue wrote: »

To add to the information requested could you publish your source that confirms that " most civil servants have a shorter working week than the banks " - not blind prejudice please !

Most civil servants work a 34 hour 45 minute week, or as anyone on flexitime will tell you, a 6 hour 57 minute day.

To my astonishment, the only source I can readily find that expressly mentions those times is 30 years old! :eek:

But the figures have not been changed in the civil service in the meantime. Here's a link. The 34.75 hours is stated in paragraph 3.20, while the 6 hours 57 minutes follows in paragraph 3.21.

http://circulars.gov.ie/pdf/general-council/finance/1982/978.pdf

I do know some senior managers in a couple of civil service departments who work a lot longer than that. But then, I also know some senior managers in two of the banks who work a lot longer than that.

For the most part, civil servants work 15 minutes less in the week than bank staff. That refers to about 30,000 people.

Teachers and academics work whatever hours they work (I'm not actually sure what they are). But in any case they get between 15 and 20 weeks off each year on full pay; I don't know anyone working for the likes of AIB or BOI who gets that length of paid holidays. So it's a reasonably safe proposition that they work the same or fewer hours over the year. That refers to about 70,000 more people, and Special Needs Assistants have the same working hours and holidays as teachers, so that's another 10,000 or so.

All in all, that adds up to 110,000 public sector workers who work the same or less than the banks - in other words, for whom your statement is INCORRECT. But there are 300,000 or thereabouts in the public service altogether, so if the other 190,000 people work longer hours than the banks then that would tilt the average hours in the public service to be longer than they are in the banks.

So, what are the working hours of all these people? The Guards, prison officers, nurses, local government staff, defence forces and so on.

23-01-2013 12:53AM

tenton wrote: »

there was a source quoted earlier in the thread - the statistic from the CSO, no less - which put the average public sector working week at less than 32 hours.

Leaving aside the fact that I'd rather not get involved in a discussion with the walking dead

, it is as plain as a pikestaff that both the private and public sector figures include part-time workers. This means that without information about the percentage of people working full or part time in a sector, any comparison is fraught with difficulty.

But anyway; where is the source for the average working week for the banks?

23-01-2013 12:59AM

kceire wrote: »

Sorry, but I think with this one post you've lost all creditability.

As long as I've retained my credibility, though, I'll be happy.

The contention was that the standard banking week was LESS than that of the average public service employee. I have demonstrated that for most civil servants this is not the case - albeit that the difference is marginal. I have also offered strong evidence to show that working time in schools and colleges is shorter than in banks.

I'm not for a moment contending that deise blue's proposition is lost; I'm merely pointing out that it's having a tough time of it, at least as far as one-third of the public service goes.

Try analysing what I said, and try adding some additional data to the discussion, and let's see where it takes us.

deise blue · 23-01-2013 08:45AM

tenton wrote: »

there was a source quoted earlier in the thread - the statistic from the CSO, no less - which put the average public sector working week at less than 32 hours.
They should know, the CSO. Its easy enough to google them if you want to.

Actually I quoted it in post no. 369 "Average weekly paid hours fell to 31.6 in Q4 2011"

http://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/releasespublications/documents/earnings/2011/earnlabcosts_q42011.pdf

Thats the "Average weekly paid hours". The actual number of hours worked on average, may of course be lower....

No wonder the lender of last resort, the IMF had to step in to "rescue" the country / lend us more to just keep going.

The CSO report on working hours for Q3 2012 shows that the average weekly paid hours in the PS are 31.2 & 31.7 in the private sector.

Even allowing for a swing one way or the other in terms of part time employees this seems to be the best barometer in terms of reflecting the argument that both sectors essentially work the same hours.

As to the source for the banking hours I can only refer you to my previous post on the matter where I pointed out that as a matter of practise & precedent Bank employees enjoy two 15 minute breaks per day thus bringing the basic working week to 32.5 hours - people can accept that fact or not but I can assure you that such is the case.

itzme · 23-01-2013 08:48AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Teachers and academics work whatever hours they work (I'm not actually sure what they are). But in any case they get between 15 and 20 weeks off each year on full pay;

Referring to third level, this is the second time you have mentioned this and the second time this has been said in the thread. It is completely wrong and really people should do some research and prove this before generalising like this.

There are two types of public sector third level in Ireland. Universities and Institutes of technology. Universities get 20 days holidays and in some get a week for Xmas and a week for Easter. That is it. There is no summer holidays.
I'm not as familiar with ITs, its my understanding that they are allowed 2 months off in the summer. Although I thought this was being changed. Either case, neither get anywhere near 5 months off (20 weeks) and universities get pretty standard holidays.

P.S I am not in any way in support of ITs being closed for any of the summer.

Gumbo · 23-01-2013 09:21AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Most civil servants have a shorter working week than the banks.

It's hard to tell with teachers and lecturers, but even if they have a longer working week than BOI and AIB, I reckon the 15 to 20 weeks off more than counterbalances that.

That covers off about 100,000 people or so. Anyone else care to offer information (not blind prejudices, please) about all the others? Gardaí? Military? Prisons? Health workers? Local authorities?

Deleted User wrote: »

Most civil servants work a 34 hour 45 minute week, or as anyone on flexitime will tell you, a 6 hour 57 minute day.

To my astonishment, the only source I can readily find that expressly mentions those times is 30 years old! :eek:

But the figures have not been changed in the civil service in the meantime. Here's a link. The 34.75 hours is stated in paragraph 3.20, while the 6 hours 57 minutes follows in paragraph 3.21.

http://circulars.gov.ie/pdf/general-council/finance/1982/978.pdf

I do know some senior managers in a couple of civil service departments who work a lot longer than that. But then, I also know some senior managers in two of the banks who work a lot longer than that.

For the most part, civil servants work 15 minutes less in the week than bank staff. That refers to about 30,000 people.

Teachers and academics work whatever hours they work (I'm not actually sure what they are). But in any case they get between 15 and 20 weeks off each year on full pay; I don't know anyone working for the likes of AIB or BOI who gets that length of paid holidays. So it's a reasonably safe proposition that they work the same or fewer hours over the year. That refers to about 70,000 more people, and Special Needs Assistants have the same working hours and holidays as teachers, so that's another 10,000 or so.

All in all, that adds up to 110,000 public sector workers who work the same or less than the banks - in other words, for whom your statement is INCORRECT. But there are 300,000 or thereabouts in the public service altogether, so if the other 190,000 people work longer hours than the banks then that would tilt the average hours in the public service to be longer than they are in the banks.

So, what are the working hours of all these people? The Guards, prison officers, nurses, local government staff, defence forces and so on.

Deleted User wrote: »

As long as I've retained my credibility, though, I'll be happy.

The contention was that the standard banking week was LESS than that of the average public service employee. I have demonstrated that for most civil servants this is not the case - albeit that the difference is marginal. I have also offered strong evidence to show that working time in schools and colleges is shorter than in banks.

I'm not for a moment contending that deise blue's proposition is lost; I'm merely pointing out that it's having a tough time of it, at least as far as one-third of the public service goes.

Try analysing what I said, and try adding some additional data to the discussion, and let's see where it takes us.

As i said, all creditibility

, out the window. You start off stating you dont want blind prejudices, then go on and post your opinions as fact, talk about pot...kettle...black....

antoobrien · 23-01-2013 09:34AM

deise blue wrote: »

You are quite right , however the 35 hour week referred to above does not include the two 15 minute breaks enjoyed by Bank employees as a matter of practice & precedent.

Two paid breaks & unpaid lunch is standard practice in every factory & office I've ever worked. The only difference between places is whether or not they give an hour's lunch or 30 minutes (which means a 5.30 finish instead of 6).

There was one factory that I worked in where the employees chose to forego the 2nd break in favour of finishing an hour earlier on Friday.

Gumbo · 23-01-2013 09:37AM

antoobrien wrote: »

Two paid breaks & unpaid lunch is standard practice in every factory & office I've ever worked. The only difference between places is whether or not they give an hour's lunch or 30 minutes (which means a 5.30 finish instead of 6).

There was one factory that I worked in where the employees chose to forego the 2nd break in favour of finishing an hour earlier on Friday.

We done that in our office (Private Sector). We started 30 mins earlier everyday (8.30am) so that on Friday, we could skip our lunch and finish at 2pm.

We also got 15 mins at 10.30am, 1 hour at lunch, and 15 mins at 3.30pm, but in fairness, we could hop up and make a cup of tea/coffee when ever we wanted.

Tim Robbins · 23-01-2013 10:05AM

deise blue wrote: »

I have worked all across the private sector , admittedly in all unionised workforces ( thankfully ) & my standard working week was always 32.5 hours.

Over a period of 30 years I worked in a flour mills , a furniture factory , a brewery , a fruit growing operation & more recently in a Bank - my core hours were 9 to 5 with a 15 minute break in the morning & afternoon & a 1 hour lunch & because of the physically demanding nature of the work in all my jobs with the exception of the Bank you really needed the morning & afternoon breaks !

There must be numerous workers currently employed in factories , retail & financial areas who still work a 32.5 hour working week - certainly the Banks standard week is still 32.5 hours - for the life of me I cannot fathom how the average working week is reckoned to be 39 hours .

Good to hear.

Pity the rest of the private sector wasn't like this.

Anyway, the average man now is been squeezed by two pernicious forces:

1. Rampant capitalism
2. Greedy Unions

I think if the Union leaders were on average industrial wage and had more interest in the common good and the abused rather than always wanting the biggest slice of the cake we'd be all better served.

Tim Robbins · 23-01-2013 10:08AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Everyone's life is so hard, so to speak. I know people who work in the banks who complain about how tough it is, but as you say their working week is no longer than a civil servant's, and for years they got cheap loans and subsidised lunches. That's before mentioning the high salaries and gilt-edged pension benefits.

The banks still give out cheap mortgages to their employees. Incredible when you think about it.

Mind you, I also know a couple of people who work a 32.5 hour week in an office in the public sector - and also claim their entitlement to two tea-breaks a day. But they say they're run off their feet, and maybe they are.

I doubt it. They are probably busier than they need to be because they are disorganised and unwilling to restructure.

They are detached from the dog - eat - dog world of the commercial world and have it easy in comparison. Not saying anything is wrong with that.

Tim Robbins · 23-01-2013 10:31AM

itzme wrote: »

Referring to third level, this is the second time you have mentioned this and the second time this has been said in the thread. It is completely wrong and really people should do some research and prove this before generalising like this.

There are two types of public sector third level in Ireland. Universities and Institutes of technology. Universities get 20 days holidays and in some get a week for Xmas and a week for Easter. That is it. There is no summer holidays.
I'm not as familiar with ITs, its my understanding that they are allowed 2 months off in the summer. Although I thought this was being changed. Either case, neither get anywhere near 5 months off (20 weeks) and universities get pretty standard holidays.

P.S I am not in any way in support of ITs being closed for any of the summer.

I think it is 5 months. No research required. Some of them use time to prepare for lectures and mark exams I guess.

Still you can get 18 days time in lieu in most of the public bringing your annual leave to 38 days with I think another day or two thrown in bringing it to 40.

It's cool. I'm envious. I'm saying don't change it. I'm saying keep it and cut the pay instead.

Gumbo · 23-01-2013 10:39AM

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Still you can get 18 days time in lieu in most of the public bringing your annual leave to 38 days with I think another day or two thrown in bringing it to 40.

How would a PS employee apply for this?

kippy · 23-01-2013 10:41AM

Tim Robbins wrote: »

I think it is 5 months. No research required. Some of them use time to prepare for lectures and mark exams I guess.

Still you can get 18 days time in lieu in most of the public bringing your annual leave to 38 days with I think another day or two thrown in bringing it to 40.

It's cool. I'm envious. I'm saying don't change it. I'm saying keep it and cut the pay instead.

40 days annual leave for "most" of the public service? Really?
(You may want to check the definition of "Annual Leave" before answering that)

woodoo · 23-01-2013 10:45AM

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Still you can get 18 days time in lieu in most of the public bringing your annual leave to 38 days with I think another day or two thrown in bringing it to 40..

That is flexi time it has absolutely nothing to do with annual leave. The hours have been worked. It happens in the private sector too.

People normally get paid overtime or they get time in lieu in the private sector. In the public quite often it is not paid as overtime.

Chris_5339762 · 23-01-2013 10:50AM

Lets not forget that a lot of contracts (PS and private) are 9 - 5. Thats 40 hours on the face of it but in my case (PS), its a 35 hour contract with an unpaid lunch. Whilst I do take my lunch, oftentimes there'll be something to do anyway. 35 hour contracts in both cases can be misleading, as 1 - 2 (or whenever lunch is) is not counted.

Often, people on 35 hour contracts do the same amount of work as a 40 hour, even though both groups are working 9 - 5!

ucd.1985 · 23-01-2013 10:56AM

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

Lets not forget that a lot of contracts (PS and private) are 9 - 5. Thats 40 hours on the face of it but in my case (PS), its a 35 hour contract with an unpaid lunch. Whilst I do take my lunch, oftentimes there'll be something to do anyway. 35 hour contracts in both cases can be misleading, as 1 - 2 (or whenever lunch is) is not counted.

Often, people on 35 hour contracts do the same amount of work as a 40 hour, even though both groups are working 9 - 5!

You have omitted the 2 15 minute breaks per day with seem very prevalent in the public service.

Lumbo · 23-01-2013 11:03AM

ucd.1985 wrote: »

You have omitted the 2 15 minute breaks per day with seem very prevalent in the public service.

I work in a Public Sector organisation with 1200 employees. We don't get 2 15 minute breaks and it was prevalent I would have thought the Union would have requested it by now. In my 7 years of dealing with them, its never been mentioned once.

woodoo · 23-01-2013 11:04AM

ucd.1985 wrote: »

You have omitted the 2 15 minute breaks per day with seem very prevalent in the public service.

Show me a job anywhere that doesn't have paid breaks. Any jobs i had in the private sector had paid breaks. Lunch is unpaid but the tea breaks are paid in both public and private. So anyone that works a standard 9 to 5 job is deemed to work a 35hr week.

deise blue · 23-01-2013 11:10AM

Tim Robbins wrote: »

The banks still give out cheap mortgages to their employees. Incredible when you think about it.

I doubt it. They are probably busier than they need to be because they are disorganised and unwilling to restructure.

They are detached from the dog - eat - dog world of the commercial world and have it easy in comparison. Not saying anything is wrong with that.

Bank employees do not receive cheaper mortgages - they pay the same commercial rates that all other borrowers do , it is true that they definitely find it easier to access a mortgage .

Cheaper mortgages for staff were discontinued many years ago when benefit kind legislation was applied to such loans.

Croke Park II preliminary Talks started today

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