Moore St - a battlefield site?

MadsL · 21-01-2013 08:04PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Well yes of course they're doing it to their own benefit. No one is going to develop a shopping centre if it doesn't benefit themselves in some way. Modernising the Ilac, while it's god for the Ilac will only leave us with one shopping centre instead of two and a still dilapidated Moore street. I don't see the problem here, it's not like the historical site is going to be purposefully demolished. Guidelines will be agreed with the relatives before any of this takes place.

Had all of this taken place as proposed you would have had the Carlton site shopping centre, the ILAC and the proposed expansion of Arnotts shopping centre.

How many shopping centres are needed in Central Dublin exactly?

Iwasfrozen · 21-01-2013 08:06PM

MadsL wrote: »

We nearly got this on O'Connell Street.

http://www.freewebs.com/dublinstreams/images/Irelandchartered.jpg

It is astonishing how much hard work some volunteers had to put in during the Celtic Tiger to stop DCC actually destroying any soul Dublin had left. Crazy schemes all rubberstamped by a greedy city council planning dept.

Gondalas down the Liffey, upsidedown L-shaped buildings hanging over the Liffey, pontoons moored on the Liffey with shops on them, giant men pissing into the liffey (kid you not) - all passed by DCC and (last one) DDDA.

What's wrong with ambitious projects? Should we allow everything to inert and stagnate simply to protect the spirtual heart of the city?

Iwasfrozen · 21-01-2013 08:11PM

MadsL wrote: »

Had all of this taken place as proposed you would have had the Carlton site shopping centre, the ILAC and the proposed expansion of Arnotts shopping centre.

How many shopping centres are needed in Central Dublin exactly?

It's not about what's needed you can maximise revenue by maximising the number of retail outlets before they start to put themselves out of business. Although the two don't have to be mutually exclusive what we need now more then ever is growth and employment not plaques and historical sites.

MadsL · 21-01-2013 08:11PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

What's wrong with ambitious projects? Should we allow everything to inert and stagnate simply to protect the spirtual heart of the city?

There's a fine line between ambitious and frankly laughable.

DCC passed a proposal to run cable cars down the Liffey, to cantilever a building over the Quays, and to moor pontoons on the Liffey as a "retail experience".

Maybe we should concrete over the Liffey to provide "an ambitious plan to revitalise the city centre"? We could run a LUAS down it, and not link it to anything else...tourists would love it I tell you, fantastic views of the Liff.....oh wait.

Iwasfrozen · 21-01-2013 08:13PM

MadsL wrote: »

There's a fine line between ambitious and frankly laughable.

DCC passed a proposal to run cable cars down the Liffey, to cantilever a building over the Quays, and to moor pontoons on the Liffey as a "retail experience".

Maybe we should concrete over the Liffey to provide "an ambitious plan to revitalise the city centre"? We could run a LUAS down it, and not link it to anything else...tourists would love it I tell you, fantastic views of the Liff.....oh wait.

Why is it laughable? It was obviously possible and potentially profitable if it had gotten approval. You're suggestion to drain the Liffey wouldn't be profitable so no one would suggest it.

P_1 · 21-01-2013 08:13PM

Turn it into a museum IMO, there's plenty of dead eyesore space around town with no historical connections (Hawkins House, I'm looking at you!!) to turn into shopping centers.

Done right it could become a massive tourist attraction for the city.

Iwasfrozen · 21-01-2013 08:16PM

P_1 wrote: »

Turn it into a museum IMO, there's plenty of dead eyesore space around town with no historical connections (Hawkins House, I'm looking at you!!) to turn into shopping centers.

Done right it could become a massive tourist attraction for the city.

If a museum would generate more revenue then a shopping centre I'd be all for it.

MadsL · 21-01-2013 08:16PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

It's not about what's needed you can maximise revenue by maximising the number of retail outlets before they start to put themselves out of business. Although the two don't have to be mutually exclusive what we need now more then ever is growth and employment not plaques and historical sites.

How does more retail space help that, you might have noticed but there has been quite a bit of talk about businesses closing recently. More retail = more empty shops.

How about we actually, think about making Dublin a nice place to visit. I don't see Amsterdam pulling down canal house because they are not practical. Nor, Bath pulling up granite pavements the way DCC love to do. I don't see Copenhagen pulling down 18th Century buildings to make way for an office building.

Tourism brings money. Shopping centres don't bring tourists, having an historic well preserved city worth seeing does that.

MadsL · 21-01-2013 08:20PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

If a museum would generate more revenue then a shopping centre I'd be all for it.

Dublin attracted an estimated 3.5 million overseas tourists in 2010, how much money do you think they spend? One in three euro spent in Ireland by overseas visitors were spent in Dublin. In 2006 the tourism industry in Ireland was worth €6 billion.

You do the math.

Iwasfrozen · 21-01-2013 08:22PM

MadsL wrote: »

How does more retail space help that, you might have noticed but there has been quite a bit of talk about businesses closing recently. More retail = more empty shops.

How about we actually, think about making Dublin a nice place to visit. I don't see Amsterdam pulling down canal house because they are not practical. Nor, Bath pulling up granite pavements the way DCC love to do. I don't see Copenhagen pulling down 18th Century buildings to make way for an office building.

Tourism brings money. Shopping centres don't bring tourists, having an historic well preserved city worth seeing does that.

Tourism while it's nice doesn't generate nearly as much revenue as retail on the other hand you mention the economic downturn but you're forgetting any development is years away, it takes ages to built shopping centres, especially when you have republican groups trying to stop you. The current planning permission is up to 2017 and I wouldn't expect to see anything before that. We aren't in the mire forever the country will get back on it's feet and a shopping centre on Moore street would be in a prime location to benefit from that.

Allyall · 21-01-2013 08:23PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Well yes of course they're doing it to their own benefit. No one is going to develop a shopping centre if it doesn't benefit themselves in some way. Modernising the Ilac, while it's god for the Ilac will only leave us with one shopping centre instead of two and a still dilapidated Moore street. I don't see the problem here, it's not like the historical site is going to be purposefully demolished. Guidelines will be agreed with the relatives before any of this takes place.

Are you forgetting about Jervis St. Shopping Centre?
And a Rejuvinated Moore St. would rid the delapidated look.

I am mixed about it. I do agree Moore Street is a tad ugly, but may be able to look good. I also realise the importance of preserving one of the most important historical events in our entire history. Not forgetting the fact that it happened less then 100 years ago and there are still plenty of people living around that area who had relatives die in those buildings.

I just think it's motivated by greed. I don't think they are looking out for anyone/anything else other then themselves, in any way. They can paint it how they want it, but...

What is the rush. Are they going to let it become an eyesore like other shopping centres around? For example Northside SC, Ilac Centre, Irish Life (although i'm not sure what that is).

Basically they just want to rush this forward, make their money and then forget about it. Who are the developers? Are they in any debt to NAMA?

Iwasfrozen · 21-01-2013 08:24PM

MadsL wrote: »

Dublin attracted an estimated 3.5 million overseas tourists in 2010, how much money do you think they spend? One in three euro spent in Ireland by overseas visitors were spent in Dublin. In 2006 the tourism industry in Ireland was worth €6 billion.

You do the math.

That's not the issue. The issue is how much extra revenue would a museum generate (I'd expect in the minus) compared to how much revenue a shopping centre would make.

P_1 · 21-01-2013 08:25PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

If a museum would generate more revenue then a shopping centre I'd be all for it.

What kind of shops would you have going into a shopping center in Moore Street?

Debenhams, M&S, O2, Vodafone etc...

They're already around the corner on Henry Street.

Dublin has two much retail space as it is.

To give you an example, I used to work for a retail chain that had 4 branches in Dublin but only 1 or 2 in Manchester, Birmingham, Glasgow, Edinburgh, Liverpool, Leeds...

So you can have a white elephant of a shopping center
or
You can kill off Henry Street
or
You can have a new visitor attraction that will benefit the city as a whole.

Tough choice...

MadsL · 21-01-2013 08:27PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Tourism while it's nice doesn't generate nearly as much revenue as retail on the other hand you mention the economic downturn but you're forgetting any development is years away, it takes ages to built shopping centres, especially when you have republican groups trying to stop you. The current planning permission is up to 2017 and I wouldn't expect to see anything before that. We aren't in the mire forever the country will get back on it's feet and a shopping centre on Moore street would be in a prime location to benefit from that.

Why are you bringing republican groups into it? I was involved in this campaign and Sinn Fein were a disgrace in their lack of support.

This is not a political campaign in any shape or form, it is matter of respect for the sacrifice of those who died during and after the rising and respect for their surviving relatives.

You might note that 2016 is before 2017. A huge opportunity for Irish tourism and here we have one of the key sites literally being pissed on. That's not a Republican issue, it's a National one.

MadsL · 21-01-2013 08:31PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

That's not the issue. The issue is how much extra revenue would a museum generate (I'd expect in the minus) compared to how much revenue a shopping centre would make.

A hell of a lot more than doing nothing. A tourist that does not visit generates 0 revenue.

You seem to think opening retail generates magic money, how does retail generate money in a vacuum? If anything foreign retail in Ireland sucks money out of the State. Most wages are min wage - profits are shipped overseas.

wolfpawnat · 21-01-2013 08:32PM

Allyall wrote: »

Basically they just want to rush this forward, make their money and then forget about it. Who are the developers? Are they in any debt to NAMA?

It was bought it 2009, the reason it has not been developed into their precious shopping centre is the developer is not only NAMA'd, but is being investigated for being in the notorious Anglo Golden Circle, so it will not be developed as a shopping centre, the revenue is no longer there. Those in the Save Moore Street campaign have proved they have philanthropists ready with millions to pump into the project.

There was a debate in the Dáil about it last year, even FG are giving out about the way people seem to have O'Connell Street looking cheap. There are vacant units all over the area surrounding Moore Street, in the two already in existence shopping centres and other buildings in the local vicinity. It would be insanity to add to the already depressing vacant shops when something of historical value can be put there instead and what's more, not cost the tax payer a single brass cent!

Allyall · 21-01-2013 08:35PM

wolfpawnat wrote: »

It was bought it 2009, the reason it has not been developed into their precious shopping centre is the developer is not only NAMA'd, but is being investigated for being in the notorious Anglo Golden Circle, so it will not be developed as a shopping centre, the revenue is no longer there. Those in the Save Moore Street campaign have proved they have philanthropists ready with millions to pump into the project.

There was a debate in the Dáil about it last year, even FG are giving out about the way people seem to have O'Connell Street looking cheap. There are vacant units all over the area surrounding Moore Street, in the two already in existence shopping centres and other buildings in the local vicinity. It would be insanity to add to the already depressing vacant shops when something of historical value can be put there instead and what's more, not cost the tax payer a single brass cent!

That makes me sick...

GRMA · 21-01-2013 08:35PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

If a museum would generate more revenue then a shopping centre I'd be all for it.

For What Died the Sons of Róisín, was it fame?
For What Died the Sons of Róisín, was it fame?
For what flowed Irelands blood in rivers,
That began when Brian chased the Dane,
And did not cease nor has not ceased,
With the brave sons of ´16,
For what died the sons of Róisín, was it fame?

For What Died the Sons of Róisín, was it greed?
For What Died the Sons of Róisín, was it greed?
Was it greed that drove Wolfe Tone to a paupers death in a cell of cold wet stone?
Will German, French or Dutch inscribe the epitaph of Emmet?
When we have sold enough of Ireland to be but strangers in it.
For What Died the Sons of Róisín, was it greed?

To whom do we owe our allegiance today?
To whom do we owe our allegiance today?
To those brave men who fought and died that Róisín live again with pride?
Her sons at home to work and sing,
Her youth to dance and make her valleys ring,
Or the faceless men who for Mark and Dollar,
Betray her to the highest bidder,
To whom do we owe our allegiance today?

For what suffer our patriots today?
For what suffer our patriots today?
They have a language problem, so they say,
How to write "No Trespass" must grieve their heart full sore,
We got rid of one strange language now we are faced with many, many more,
For what suffer our patriots today?

Iwasfrozen · 21-01-2013 08:36PM

P_1 wrote: »

What kind of shops would you have going into a shopping center in Moore Street?

Debenhams, M&S, O2, Vodafone etc...

They're already around the corner on Henry Street.

Dublin has two much retail space as it is.

To give you an example, I used to work for a retail chain that had 4 branches in Dublin but only 1 or 2 in Manchester, Birmingham, Glasgow, Edinburgh, Liverpool, Leeds...

So you can have a white elephant of a shopping center
or
You can kill off Henry Street
or
You can have a new visitor attraction that will benefit the city as a whole.

Tough choice...

Me? I'm not planning this but if I were opening a shopping centre I'd let in however is willing to pay the most in rent. It's not the developers problem if there is already a vodafone shop down the road. Unless you haven't noticed we are up to our necks in debt. Now is not the time for bank rolling public projects. Also it's a little strange to me how people want to make a museum dedicated to 1916 with money that could have been used to partly pay off our debt and regain our economic sovereignty.

MadsL · 21-01-2013 08:39PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Me? I'm not planning this but if I were opening a shopping centre I'd let in however is willing to pay the most in rent. It's not the developers problem if there is already a vodafone shop down the road. Unless you haven't noticed we are up to our necks in debt. Now is not the time for bank rolling public projects. Also it's a little strange to me how people want to make a museum dedicated to 1916 with money that could have been used to partly pay off our debt and regain our economic sovereignty.

You might want to think very long and hard about how we got in that situation in the first place.

Does the name Joe O'Reilly not ring some bells in relation to that very debt?

Iwasfrozen · 21-01-2013 08:40PM

MadsL wrote: »

A hell of a lot more than doing nothing. A tourist that does not visit generates 0 revenue.

You seem to think opening retail generates magic money, how does retail generate money in a vacuum? If anything foreign retail in Ireland sucks money out of the State. Most wages are min wage - profits are shipped overseas.

How? Well it's keynesian economics to say that every time a euro is spent it generates more then a euro for the government. And let's be honest here. This museum isn't going to be profitable it's going to be a net receiver of government grants just to stay open. I don't think you can really ever make the argument that a museum generates more revenue to the state then a shopping centre.

Iwasfrozen · 21-01-2013 08:43PM

MadsL wrote: »

You might want to think very long and hard about how we got in that situation in the first place.

Does the name Joe O'Reilly not ring some bells in relation to that very debt?

It's because we're in this mess that we need successful projects. Building a museum and saying "ah that's nice" isn't very useful to us when it's built on borrowed money.

wolfpawnat · 21-01-2013 08:44PM

Allyall wrote: »

That makes me sick...

That is why this campaign is getting support, because there is little valid argument against it.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Me? I'm not planning this but if I were opening a shopping centre I'd let in however is willing to pay the most in rent. It's not the developers problem if there is already a vodafone shop down the road. Unless you haven't noticed we are up to our necks in debt. Now is not the time for bank rolling public projects. Also it's a little strange to me how people want to make a museum dedicated to 1916 with money that could have been used to partly pay off our debt and regain our economic sovereignty.

Because those willing to pay for the museum are foreign philanthropists who owe nothing to Ireland, but wish to invest in our history. It is not their duty to pay off our "debt" (not even ours, ironically it is that of the developers, the likes of which that own those buildings) If people want another shopping centre, they can do up the one across from those buildings that is in need of a face lift as it is, though I am not certain how you can fill the vacant units by adding more to be left vacant. The place is riddled in everything anyone could possibly need as it is. I live on the Southside and I go to Henry Street because I have everything from Coffee Shops, to several clothes shops and food supermarkets. Dunnes, Marks, Lidl, Iceland and Tesco's are in less than 500m of each other. So little business would go there, there is too much competition for them.

MadsL · 21-01-2013 08:45PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

How? Well it's keynesian economics to say that every time a euro is spent it generates more then a euro for the government. And let's be honest here. This museum isn't going to be profitable it's going to be a net receiver of government grants just to stay open. I don't think you can really ever make the argument that a museum generates more revenue to the state then a shopping centre.

Really? Hadn't really thought of Egypt as a major shopping destination, yet those Pyramids seem to pull in about $11bn a year. The most famous department store in the world managed a mere £635 million in 2010.

Think again.

MadsL · 21-01-2013 08:47PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

It's because we're in this mess that we need successful projects. Building a museum and saying "ah that's nice" isn't very useful to us when it's built on borrowed money.

Did you miss that part about €12 million in pledged donations?

AnonoBoy · 21-01-2013 08:48PM

...something something..... fumble in a greasy till.

Etc.

GRMA · 21-01-2013 08:50PM

AnonoBoy wrote: »

...something something..... fumble in a greasy till.

Etc.

What need you, being come to sense,
But fumble in a greasy till
And add the halfpence to the pence
And prayer to shivering prayer, until
You have dried the marrow from the bone;
For men were born to pray and save;
Romantic Ireland's dead and gone,
It's with O'Leary in the grave.

Yet they were of a different kind,
The names that stilled your childish play,
They have gone about the world like wind,
But little time had they to pray
For whom the hangman's rope was spun,
And what, God help us, could they save?
Romantic Ireland's dead and gone,
It's with O'Leary in the grave.

Was it for this the wild geese spread
The grey wing upon every tide;
For this that all that blood was shed,
For this Edward Fitzgerald died,
And Robert Emmet and Wolfe Tone,
All that delirium of the brave?
Romantic Ireland's dead and gone,
It's with O'Leary in the grave.

Yet could we turn the years again,
And call those exiles as they were
In all their loneliness and pain,
You'd cry `Some woman's yellow hair
Has maddened every mother's son':
They weighed so lightly what they gave.
But let them be, they're dead and gone,
They're with O'Leary in the grave.

Great poem... O'Leary was a very interesting guy, worth reading up on

wolfpawnat · 21-01-2013 08:51PM

AnonoBoy wrote: »

...something something..... fumble in a greasy till.

Etc.

Is it odd the poem came back to me from reading those 4 words, each line more apt than the last.

Iwasfrozen · 21-01-2013 08:55PM

wolfpawnat wrote: »

Because those willing to pay for the museum are foreign philanthropists who owe nothing to Ireland, but wish to invest in our history. It is not their duty to pay off our "debt" (not even ours, ironically it is that of the developers, the likes of which that own those buildings) If people want another shopping centre, they can do up the one across from those buildings that is in need of a face lift as it is, though I am not certain how you can fill the vacant units by adding more to be left vacant. The place is riddled in everything anyone could possibly need as it is. I live on the Southside and I go to Henry Street because I have everything from Coffee Shops, to several clothes shops and food supermarkets. Dunnes, Marks, Lidl, Iceland and Tesco's are in less than 500m of each other. So little business would go there, there is too much competition for them.

Who exactly are these foreign philanthropists and why are they investing in Moore street? No one got rich off being generous. On the other hand I don't think you got what I meant, it doesn't matter if there are 20 starbucks on one street if starbucks think they will make profit by opening a 21st then that's what they'll do and they'll benefit the country while they're at it. If they don't think they'll make a profit then they won't open there and somebody else will. You get into very dangerous territory when you start to use government powers to restrict supply.

MadsL wrote: »

Did you miss that part about €12 million in pledged donations?

But will 12 million totally cover it? And the running costs minus it's profit for the foreseeable future? It's irrelevent if the meuseum is still generating less revenue then a shopping centre would.

MadsL wrote: »

Really? Hadn't really thought of Egypt as a major shopping destination, yet those Pyramids seem to pull in about $11bn a year. The most famous department store in the world managed a mere £635 million in 2010.

Think again.

Now we aren't going to be building the pyramids in moore street.

P_1 · 21-01-2013 08:59PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Me? I'm not planning this but if I were opening a shopping centre I'd let in however is willing to pay the most in rent. It's not the developers problem if there is already a vodafone shop down the road. Unless you haven't noticed we are up to our necks in debt. Now is not the time for bank rolling public projects. Also it's a little strange to me how people want to make a museum dedicated to 1916 with money that could have been used to partly pay off our debt and regain our economic sovereignty.

That's the point I was making, it doesn't make sense opening up a new shopping center if its intended tenants are already in situ literally around the corner. A shopping center with no tenants = a white elephant.

Now having a tourist attraction in its place would benefit the retailers around it (by bringing in more footfall)

Moore St - a battlefield site?

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