Moore St - a battlefield site?

MadsL

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gR-zYpORGgw

It looks like Chartered Land may end up being handed back to the State. I'm sadly skeptical of the State's ability to run this as a museum...some campaigners are calling for the entire site to be preserved to provide context for the museum - for examples the yards at Moore Lane.

Do we preserve as much as possible or demolish and allow the shopping centre as planned?

Nodin

I think we've enough shopping centres.

smash

Moore st is a kip.

Praetorian Saighdiuir

Feck the shopping centre, we have an abundance of them. Destroying a historical site for the purpose of greed and money.

Sleepy

Unless it can be turned into a self-sustaining, independent, museum that isn't a horrendous eye-sore, demolish it imho.

latenia

It's just a pile of bricks of little significance apart from a group of men sitting in it for a few hours 90 years ago. I'm not too bothered about its demolition and I don't think they would be either...

AnonoBoy

Oh definitely hand it over to developers. They've done such a great job so far of not f*cking up the country.


/sarcasm.

MadsL

Sleepy wrote: »

Unless it can be turned into a self-sustaining, independent, museum that isn't a horrendous eye-sore, demolish it imho.

Museums have to pay their way?

Wow.

Dont be at yourself

I love Moore Street. Would be a travesty to destroy it for a shopping centre. The multi-cultural, working class flavour should be preserved as much as possible -- give the market traders more space and better facilities.

stoneill

smash wrote: »

Moore st is a kip.

Moore street was allowed to fall into a state of disrepair by property owners looking to cash in on a "super shopping experience, right in the heart of Dublin"
You only have to look at the amount of redundant 2008/2009 planning permission notices still attached to every building along Moore Street and Moore Lane to see that.

Yeah i think Moore street should be kept the same, its one of the last places were you can find old Dublin. It would be nice to know 500 years from now it is kept the same and people are still selling fruit there.

MadsL

AnonoBoy wrote: »

Oh definitely hand it over to developers. They've done such a great job so far of not f*cking up the country.


/sarcasm.

The Developers own it. Under some pretty dodgy sets of circumstances too.

I would urge you to watch the TG4 documentary on it. Nothing short of a National disgrace...very little said about the alleged corruption within DCC since either..

http://www.tg4.ie/en/tg4-player/tg4-player.html?id=1908363069001&title=Anamnocht

smash

stoneill wrote: »

You only have to look at the amount of redundant 2008/2009 planning permission notices still attached to every building along Moore Street and Moore Lane to see that.

I must have missed them... I was blinded by 2nd hand mobile phone shops and ethnic hair salons.

stoneill

smash wrote: »

I must have missed them... I was blinded by 2nd hand mobile phone shops and ethnic hair salons.

Depends on what your looking for in life I suppose.

smash

stoneill wrote: »

Depends on what your looking for in life I suppose.

An old Nokia 3310 and a killer braid obviously.

MaxSteele

Preserve the actual building which was occupied during the rising, but other than that, Moore street is just a kip really.

A few fruit stalls and lines of long shut businesses. Place is turning into little Africa in that underground mall thing. Won't be anything nostalgic or "working class" about in a few years. Shame really.

Gummy Panda

Preserve Moore st?

Doesn't look like there is much to preserve. The buildings are in bits, its full of shítty second hand phone shops and ethnic hairdressers.

AnonoBoy

MadsL wrote: »

The Developers own it. Under some pretty dodgy sets of circumstances too.

I would urge you to watch the TG4 documentary on it. Nothing short of a National disgrace...very little said about the alleged corruption within DCC since either..

http://www.tg4.ie/en/tg4-player/tg4-player.html?id=1908363069001&title=Anamnocht

I've seen it. A guy I know worked on that and said there's a lot of shady stuff that didn't go in that doc because of the legal implications!

MadsL

MaxSteele wrote: »

Preserve the actual building which was occupied during the rising, but other than that, Moore street is just a kip really.

A few fruit stalls and lines of long shut businesses. Place is turning into little Africa in that underground mall thing. Won't be anything nostalgic or "working class" about in a few years. Shame really.

It was the whole terrace that was occupied.

Area is shabby because developers who want sites to 'regenerate' without argument allow buildings to fall into disrepair so that the area is thought of as a 'kip' and better to allow your 'master-vision' for the area Mr Developer.

DCC even handed over some sites to the developer without a tender process.

GRMA

Developer got the land via the worst elements of the FF celtic tiger era, bribes, backhanders and illegality.

Of course it should be preserved, in any other country this wouldnt even be up for debate

MadsL

Alternative proposal from some of the relatives...

http://www.generalmichaelcollins.com/Fine_Gael/Moore_Historic_Tour/Moore_St_Plan.1.jpg

http://www.generalmichaelcollins.com/Fine_Gael/Moore_Historic_Tour/Moore_Street.html

Praetorian Saighdiuir

I'd personally prefer if it was preserved. It was part of a movement which ultimately gave us our own country. It should be kept not just destroyed.

WoollyRedHat

Where would we buy bananas from?

LivelineDipso

Wood Quay all over again.

Lampposts and piano wire is the only way we'll restore democracy in Ireland.

maxfresh

WoollyRedHat wrote: »

Where would we buy bananas from?

and black market ciggies

Stimpyone

It was always my understanding that the group of lads retreating from the GPO where usinging explosives to move undercover from house the house along Moore Street.

Roughly half way along they ran out of explosives and surrended. Hardly the Alamo!!

IMO we've enough monuments to our violent past.

wolfpawnat

According to the Save Moore Street Campaign, they have philanthropists ready with €12million to pump straight into it if they were to be given the site. In true developer style, the site was left go completely derelict looking so that people would not object to its demolition of the site.

People are unaware of the significance of the whole Moore Street area in the fight for Irish Independence in the Easter rising. It was where the O'Rahilly died, where Connolly waited in agony with a bullet after shattering his ankle and where Pearse witnessed the brutal murder of a butcher, his wife and two children by British forces as they waved a white flag to be allowed out of the street, that incident was one of the main reasons he offered their surrender.

It deserves to be treated as it would be in the rest of Europe or in America. All major sites from the War of American Independence are cherished. We are being told they will fund it themselves, that the tax paying public need not be involved, it is NAMA'd now so nothing is going to happen there only for it to go into further decay.

MadsL

Stimpyone wrote: »

IMO we've enough monuments to our violent past.

Which nation has monuments to its non-violent past? Apart from perhaps India.

AnonoBoy

MadsL wrote: »

Which nation has monuments to its non-violent past? Apart from perhaps India.

Andorra.

Just a load of hacky-sacks and rizla papers.

Bunch of hippies.

Ray Palmer

There is really nothing worth saving. There was nothing to save in the 70s so it is not to do with landlords letting it go into disrepair.
The reason it is is like that is due to some notion of preservation that never materialised. Move along as the leaders of the rising would no doubt want. The street traders will not last long anyway. They aren't passing it on down the family as their children don't want to do it. Ireland has moved on a vocal minority should not hold us back.

Sir Gallagher

I love Moore Street, always make sure to pass through it when i'm walking from the northside of town to the southside. It's crumbling but i love the feel of the street, warts and all. The African and Asian shops have added another dimension to it, there's an old world grittiness to it. Artisan markets and trendy little streets with little cafes and uber trendy vintage clothes shops can go and get fcked with their sanitised culture imo. Give me Moore Street any day of the week.

wolfpawnat

Stimpyone wrote: »

It was always my understanding that the group of lads retreating from the GPO where usinging explosives to move undercover from house the house along Moore Street.

Roughly half way along they ran out of explosives and surrended. Hardly the Alamo!!

IMO we've enough monuments to our violent past.

Actually they broke through the walls, if they had explosives they would have used them on the Brits and not a wall.

They could not go further because of the weaponry the British Forces had, not because they could dig no further. They surrendered because of a few reasons, none of which was because of explosives. The death of civilians, the knowledge they were defeated and other realistic reasons, etc.

It is not the Alamo, but it is OUR history and that is what matters. It was one of the defining moments in Ireland's fight for freedom. Though it got little support at the time, after the execution of the severely injured James Connolly even the King of England felt the British were shooting themselves in the foot.

What monuments have we got. A few buildings, and an occasional plaque at the side of roads at ambush sites. Hardly overrun with them are we? It won't cost people anything apparently. Those who wish to run it say they have the money to do so without affecting the tax payer, so it's not like it will affect you in any way shape or form, except of course Moore Street will look better. And I doubt there is a man, woman or child who would object to that?

Sir Gallagher

Ray Palmer wrote: »

There is really nothing worth saving. There was nothing to save in the 70s so it is not to do with landlords letting it go into disrepair.
The reason it is is like that is due to some notion of preservation that never materialised. Move along as the leaders of the rising would no doubt want. The street traders will not last long anyway. They aren't passing it on down the family as their children don't want to do it. Ireland has moved on a vocal minority should not hold us back.

Hold us back from what? It's one small street in the city. I'd be more concerned about the state of O'Connell street to be honest.

bijapos

MadsL wrote: »

The Developers own it. Under some pretty dodgy sets of circumstances too.

I would urge you to watch the TG4 documentary on it. Nothing short of a National disgrace...very little said about the alleged corruption within DCC since either..

http://www.tg4.ie/en/tg4-player/tg4-player.html?id=1908363069001&title=Anamnocht

Very little is said about it as they were all at it, FF and FG. Trevor Sargent once stood up with a cheque at a council meeting asking has anyone else received one of these, he was physically attacked and then booed by all sides of the council chamber. Says enough. That docu is excellent.

Here's another article about the kind of corruption that was rampant in DCC at the time (note this took place under a FG government)

Gummy Panda wrote: »

Preserve Moore st?

Doesn't look like there is much to preserve. The buildings are in bits, its full of shítty second hand phone shops and ethnic hairdressers.

Moore St keeps changing, always has done always will, but it should be preserved, they can build a shopping centre at the front of it, but what's the point of it's going to be full of UK and Spanish chain stores. What they could do is to try and build somewhere that will not be a ghost town after 8pm but some ppplace that can be an attraction for the city, a Temple Bar for north of the Liffey. (obviously without the junkies)

BlatentCheek

Moore Streets been a bit of a kip for as long as I can remember, and I suspect it would be regardless of anything dastardly developers did or didn't do.
That said, by way of comparison most of the development on Parnell Street west of O'Connell street has made it feel extremely inhospitable to walk along. Tall cheap looking buildings and busy traffic = minging; particularly compared to the part of Parnell Street east of O'Connell Street which has nearly as much traffic but a much nicer feel mainly due to a lack of big development so maybe it's best keeping Moore Street the way it is since the alternative may just be worse.
I'd rather the reason for preserving Moore Street was to have a nicer city rather than to preserve an anonymous looking building to commemorate an event which one of the north inner city's most impressive buildings, the GPO, already does.

Nodin

Ray Palmer wrote: »

There is really nothing worth saving. There was nothing to save in the 70s so it is not to do with landlords letting it go into disrepair.
The reason it is is like that is due to some notion of preservation that never materialised. Move along as the leaders of the rising would no doubt want. The street traders will not last long anyway. They aren't passing it on down the family as their children don't want to do it. Ireland has moved on a vocal minority should not hold us back.

Hold us back from what? Another fucking shopping centre? Isn't the place soulless enough?

There's a reason you have to travel to see this kind of thing
http://www.brodyaga.ru/pages/photos/Germany/Rothenberg%20Germany%201145073121.jpg
...the kind of cheap, "whats it worth" mentality that put is in the state we're in today.

Sir Gallagher

bijapos wrote: »

Very little is said about it as they were all at it, FF and FG. Trevor Sargent once stood up with a cheque at a council meeting asking has anyone else received one of these, he was physically attacked and then booed by all sides of the council chamber. Says enough. That docu is excellent.

Here's another article about the kind of corruption that was rampant in DCC at the time (note this took place under a FG government)



Moore St keeps changing, always has done always will, but it should be preserved, they can build a shopping centre at the front of it, but what's the point of it's going to be full of UK and Spanish chain stores. What they could do is to try and build somewhere that will not be a ghost town after 8pm but some ppplace that can be an attraction for the city, a Temple Bar for north of the Liffey. (obviously without the junkies)

That would be cool but the whole northside of the city would need to be cleaned up and regenerated for something like that to happen. Unless they plan to move the treatment centres outside of the city centre i couldn't see it happening anytime soon.

wolfpawnat

BlatentCheek wrote: »

I'd rather the reason for preserving Moore Street was to have a nicer city rather than to preserve an anonymous looking building to commemorate an event which one of the north inner city's most impressive buildings, the GPO, already does.

But it is a functioning business building, though there is a little side room with information on the Rising, it cannot facilitate what they wish to do on Moore Street. Most of the GPO is off limits to the public for very obvious reasons, so it would be nice to have somewhere dedicated to the history of the rising where people can get a proper feel for the conditions the men and women were in and to get a full history of that week.

BlatentCheek

Nodin wrote: »

Hold us back from what? Another fucking shopping centre? Isn't the place soulless enough?

There's a reason you have to travel to see this kind of thing
http://www.brodyaga.ru/pages/photos/Germany/Rothenberg%20Germany%201145073121.jpg
...the kind of cheap, "whats it worth" mentality that put is in the state we're in today.

With all due respect comparing that picture to Moore Street actually made me laugh out loud.
Here's Moore Street for comparison:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/infomatique/7184658592/

Allyall

Why build another Shopping Centre?
If we're to believe what we are reading about Bricks and Mortar shops, a Free Museum would probably be more profitable..

Internet taking over, rates too high, shops closing down etc..

To build something that isn't needed on an area that obviously means a lot to many is just causing unnecessary cr*p and headaches. Knock down the ILAC centre, it's a rotten kip anyway and means nothing to anyone. Does anyone even go there shopping?
Jervis street another 5 feet up the road. What's the point of another SC?

The good folk that looked after our Country in the past two decades probably got a bit of cash for it (deservedly so) and agreed. But they're not there anymore.

BlatentCheek

wolfpawnat wrote: »

But it is a functioning business building, though there is a little side room with information on the Rising, it cannot facilitate what they wish to do on Moore Street. Most of the GPO is off limits to the public for very obvious reasons, so it would be nice to have somewhere dedicated to the history of the rising where people can get a proper feel for the conditions the men and women were in and to get a full history of that week.

Fair point, until now I was under the assumption that the campaign was simply to have the building listed and preserved; transforming it into a museum is definitely preferable to a dubious development

Nodin

BlatentCheek wrote: »

With all due respect comparing that picture to Moore Street actually made me laugh out loud.
Here's Moore Street for comparison:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/infomatique/7184658592/

I was speaking generally, of the "fuck the ringfort, we can build a hall and rent it out for pilates" mentality.

AnonoBoy

Sir Gallagher wrote: »

I'd be more concerned about the state of O'Connell street to be honest.

That gaping big hole in the facade of O'Connell St. is because of the same developers.

Sir Gallagher

Nodin wrote: »

Hold us back from what? Another fucking shopping centre? Isn't the place soulless enough?

There's a reason you have to travel to see this kind of thing
http://www.brodyaga.ru/pages/photos/Germany/Rothenberg%20Germany%201145073121.jpg
...the kind of cheap, "whats it worth" mentality that put is in the state we're in today.

BlatentCheek wrote: »

With all due respect comparing that picture to Moore Street actually made me laugh out loud.
Here's Moore Street for comparison:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/infomatique/7184658592/

A stroll down South Georges Street serves as a perfect example of the do's & dont's of preserving the aesthetic of a city.

MadsL

BlatentCheek wrote: »

Fair point, until now I was under the assumption that the campaign was simply to have the building listed and preserved; transforming it into a museum is definitely preferable to a dubious development

Numbers 14-17 are a National Monument already. A National Monument in the hands of a NAMA'd developer implicated as part of the Anglo Golden Circle and under Garda investigation, and falling to pieces with holes in the roof, but a National Monument nonetheless.

A Moore Street Advisory committee has been set up to look at the future of Moore St and (not that you would know this from any mention on the DCC website) submissions or comments can be made to msac@dublincity.ie - deadline is 31st Jan

johnolocher

Moore St & the lane ways are a cr@p hole. Either make it into a really cool museum or demolish it and create jobs in the area. Infact you could even save the main buildings and have it as a museum within the shopping centre, with some good architects I reckon they could make it quite cool.

wolfpawnat

BlatentCheek wrote: »

Fair point, until now I was under the assumption that the campaign was simply to have the building listed and preserved; transforming it into a museum is definitely preferable to a dubious development

Well I have been to a few of their public information events. They have shown what the developer wanted, and what they plan. Their first step is to make the buildings safe and not to affect the business's that occupy the street, though they are not to everyone liking, they are still entitled to their business and they would not be there if people were not using them, so they would remain unaffected for the most part. They would request that every business have the name of the business that occupied the building at the time of the rising above the doors, but not in a way that would affect the current shop owners. Not sure how it would work but a nice thought all the same.

Then the storeys of the buildings unused by business's they seem to have planned for some rooms to be kept as they had been at the time of their occupation by the army based of letters, notes and books kept by those who occupied them, while other areas would hold photographs and other valuable pieces from the Rising.

This group is non-political and has the backing of all the signatories families, and if I am not mistaken, the backing of the families of all twelve executed leaders (though I may be mistaken on the second one).

They also appear to have many of the descendants of those who were part of the ICA and the Volunteers who are willing to hand over (on loan I would assume) letters and artefacts from that week. It would be a true little treasure and would boost the Moore Street area in a good light, as opposed to a being a place to obtain dodgy phone and illegal cigarettes.

David900

Thread seems to be contradicting itself.
People are arguing the area should be regenerated but don't want a developer involved.
Who should be tasked with this proposed development? The government?
I think that's a receipt for disaster.

I've looked at the planned development and its actually quite good.
The plan includes keeping the street traders in place, although I believe this is only until lunch hour when the area will be reserved for cafe style seating (although maybe not ideal to the history of the street would ensure its well kept, which would be an improvement on its current state).

There is also provision for a museum in the buildings at the back, again would be a marked improvement on the current situation.

The area is dying due to lack of shopping/eating facilities. The area.needs a complete overhaul that could only be achieved through a large scale development.
The developers behind the plan have an excellent track record, having constructed Dundrum town centre, improved Swords since they purchased it and also added a massive improvement to the Jervis (although improvements here are limited given the odd shape of the building).

Chinasea

bijapos wrote: »

Very little is said about it as they were all at it, FF and FG. Trevor Sargent once stood up with a cheque at a council meeting asking has anyone else received one of these, he was physically attacked and then booed by all sides of the council chamber. Says enough. That docu is excellent.

/QUOTE]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBJ8yz2Idqc

The same people who got rid of the Dandelion Market. Great country. Great.

Allyall

I think the ugliest buildings are the ones that were built in the 60's/70's and 80's.
I wonder would we look back in 40 years and say the same about an ugly plastic looking Shopping Centre?

http://goo.gl/maps/Hy5uq

Iwasfrozen

Allyall wrote: »

Why build another Shopping Centre?
If we're to believe what we are reading about Bricks and Mortar shops, a Free Museum would probably be more profitable..

Internet taking over, rates too high, shops closing down etc..

To build something that isn't needed on an area that obviously means a lot to many is just causing unnecessary cr*p and headaches. Knock down the ILAC centre, it's a rotten kip anyway and means nothing to anyone. Does anyone even go there shopping?
Jervis street another 5 feet up the road. What's the point of another SC?

The good folk that looked after our Country in the past two decades probably got a bit of cash for it (deservedly so) and agreed. But they're not there anymore.

Why? To stimulate the economy, generate jobs and provide us with more money from the tax revenue to pay off our debt. It isn't going to disappear you know and we should be seeking to utilise every resource we have towards regaining our economic sovereignty. After all wasn't that what 1916 was for?