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At Least 25,000 Attend Anti-Abortion Vigil

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Comments

  • #392
    Pompey Magnus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,406 ✭✭✭Pompey Magnus


    lazygal wrote: »
    How do you feel about forcing an unwilling women to remain pregnant against her wishes?

    Personally I don't like the idea of a unwilling woman having to keep a baby she doesn't want, it gives me no joy at all, but I find the alternative far worse.


  • #393
    Min
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,550 ✭✭✭Min


    ScumLord wrote: »
    So? China and Russia are nothing like Ireland, China are trying to control populations and have half their country living in the most modern cities in the world and the other half living in the dark ages.

    It's a nonsense comparison, Irish people like having babies I don't think abortions will become popular here any time soon.

    I wonder why they make that choice too? Has it anything to do with religious reasonings?

    That's an excellent point, it takes a village to raise a child. What if the woman won't have that? What if she knows her family will turn on her for getting married outside of wedlock? She'll know that not only will she be ruining her life but bringing a child into a world of poverty where that child doesn't get to see it's mother and is hated by their family. (I don't think this happens often in Ireland any more it's just a worst case scenario)

    Or by taking serious live changing decisions out of their hands.

    I think for the most part you could make abortions completely legal in Ireland and they wouldn't become all that popular.

    Maybe popular among the pro-choice but what is happening in China and India - gendercide is happening in England. Lord Steel never thought there would be this liberal abortion system in England - 1 in 5 pregnancies aborted.
    The thing is countries with abortions need immigration to replace the missing people who were intentionally terminated.


  • #394
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    My name is URL wrote: »
    But those protesting the other night were doing so in response to legislation the government have already said will be introduced. Why would pro-choicers be out in such numbers too? The only reason would be to counter-demonstrate, and most people probably wouldn't want to give them the time of day.

    Besides, people can protest and attempt to grab headlines all they want. None of it matters one iota when popular public opinion is shown to favor abortions in certain cases.

    I'm think the X Case makes sense as a pro-life person.

    The pro-choice lobby did organise a counter protest. That's my point. They only got 200 people. The pro-choice lobby have never gathered 15,000 people in Dublin as far as I'm aware.


  • #395
    lazygal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    Min wrote: »

    Maybe popular among the pro-choice but what is happening in China and India - gendercide is happening in England. Lord Steel never thought there would be this liberal abortion system in England - 1 in 5 pregnancies aborted.
    The thing is countries with abortions need immigration to replace the missing people who were intentionally terminated.
    Do you support repealing the right to travel so unborn children aren't aborted abroad? What about my point on those with money being able to access abortion but those who are poor being denied it?


  • #396
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,808 ✭✭✭✭smash


    Min wrote: »
    Really?

    Where were the pro-choice people when it came to illegal practices by a pro-choice organisation that was puting the lives of women at risk....???

    Probably at home letting women choose for themselves if they want to use illegal practices...


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  • #397
    St.Spodo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,027 ✭✭✭St.Spodo


    philologos wrote: »
    I'm think the X Case makes sense as a pro-life person.

    The pro-choice lobby did organise a counter protest. That's my point. They only got 200 people. The pro-choice lobby have never gathered 15,000 people in Dublin as far as I'm aware.

    As I said above, they gathered such a crowd in November.


  • #398
    Loafing Oaf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,971 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


    Min wrote: »
    Both lives should be respected, the pregnant woman should get all the care she needs so her life is preserved - presuming it is not terminal cancer, the baby's life should be respected as a unique life but if the consequences of her treatment leads to the loss of her baby then there was no malicious intent towards the life of the unborn and this is not the same as intentionally killing the unborn.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/letters/2012/0915/1224324047456.html
    The then master of the Rotunda Hospital Dr Peter McKenna made it clear that, in his experience, an abortion is carried out when a woman’s life is in danger. “Personally I think you are better to be up front and clear about this and say that the pregnancy is being aborted”. he told the committee,”That is the treatment, it’s not the unintentional side effect of the treatment. The treatment is you end the pregnancy. That is, I think, abortion”.

    But what would he know eh?


  • #399
    Pompey Magnus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,406 ✭✭✭Pompey Magnus


    lazygal wrote: »
    What about my point on those with money being able to access abortion but those who are poor being denied it?

    Should that apply across the board so? Should euthanasia be introduced because the poor can't afford a flight to Switzerland? Should prostitution be legalised because the poor can't afford a trip to Amsterdam? Should heroin use be legalised because the poor can't afford a flight to Vancouver?


  • #400
    B0jangles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,950 ✭✭✭B0jangles


    St.Spodo wrote: »
    As I said above, they gathered such a crowd in November.

    And it should be noted that those who marched in November did not have the benefit of a huge fleet of free buses to transport them to Dublin.


  • #401
    Rented Mule
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,154 ✭✭✭Rented Mule


    LivelineDipso wrote: »
    Might be as high as 40,000 from some estimates.

    Depending on which priest you talk to.


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  • #402
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    St.Spodo wrote: »

    As I said above, they gathered such a crowd in November.

    Link? This is also on the assumption that the WSM are right and the Gardai are wrong which is questionable.


  • #403
    lazygal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    B0jangles wrote: »

    And it should be noted that those who marched in November did not have the benefit of a huge fleet of free buses to transport them to Dublin.
    They also didn't have to bribe people with iPads.


  • #404
    Pompey Magnus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,406 ✭✭✭Pompey Magnus


    philologos wrote: »
    Link?

    And if the number hasn't first been validated by the Worker's Solidarity Movement then don't believe it for a minute!


  • #405
    Sarky
    Closed Accounts Posts: 31,967 ✭✭✭✭Sarky


    I wonder who got that iPad in the end. Sure 95% of those who turned up wouldn't know how to use one of those new-fangled gadgets.


  • #406
    lazygal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    Pompey Magnus wrote: »

    Should that apply across the board so? Should euthanasia be introduced because the poor can't afford a flight to Switzerland? Should prostitution be legalised because the poor can't afford a trip to Amsterdam? Should heroin use be legalised because the poor can't afford a flight to Vancouver?
    Can you answer on abortion? Poor women can't have abortion but those with money can. So poor women are forced to remain pregnant, while others aren't.


  • #407
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    St.Spodo wrote: »

    Actually the 'March for Savita' had a Garda estimate of 20,000. To be perfectly honest I have my doubts it was quite that high, but it was arranged mere days in advance and not a single free bus ran from anywhere in the country.

    Were all involved pro-choice or simply pro-intervention in medical emergencies. That's a good deal more grey than black or white.


  • #408
    Min
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,550 ✭✭✭Min


    lazygal wrote: »
    Pro life are concerned about foetuses. How do you feel about the fact women with money in Ireland can access safe and legal abortion but poorer women can't? How do you feel about forcing an unwilling women to remain pregnant against her wishes?

    Pro-life are concerned about all life, pro-choice are concerned about allowing some life to be terminated.

    You do know Marie Stopes - a nasty woman given her love of a certain figure in WW2 and her hatred of Jews, now famous for clinics in the business of terminations, well an Irish woman nearly died in one of her clinics in London, is this the safe and legal abortion you talk about?
    A GYNAECOLOGIST who botched the termination of an Irishwoman’s pregnancy and left her fighting for her life, has been struck off in Britain.

    Dr Phanuel Dartey perforated the uterus of the unidentified woman and left parts of a foetus inside her at the Marie Stopes Internatonal Clinic in Ealing where he worked.

    She returned home but was later taken to hospital where she remained on the critical list for two months.

    Dr Dartley also used innovative laser surgery to enhance women's sex lives and botched surgery on five patients.
    http://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/doctor-struck-off-as-abortion-nearly-kills-irish-woman-2952713.html

    This this from the Mail
    A doctor can carry on performing abortions even though he nearly killed a patient by ripping out her ovary and part of her bowel, the General Medical Council ruled yesterday.
    The GMC found consultant gynaecologist and obstetrician Andrew Gbinigie, 47, guilty of serious professional misconduct but ruled that he could continue carrying out abortions if he abided by a series of conditions for three years.
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-172957/Botched-abortion-doc-keeps-job.html

    Legal abortion with the myth of it being safe abortion. Wouldn't you rather be poor than having a legal abortion in the belief it will be 100% a safe abortion and ending up in hospital for months.


    How do you feel about pro-choice IFPA telling women - potentially the poor women you talk about, on how to smuggle the abortion pill illegally into this country and then not tell their doctor they had an abortion even though this potentially is putting their lives at risk?


  • #409
    Min
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,550 ✭✭✭Min


    Garda figures for the Savita march were 10,000 to 12,000. Organisers said 20,000.


  • #410
    lazygal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    philologos wrote: »

    Were all involved pro-choice or simply pro-intervention in medical emergencies. That's a good deal more grey than black or white.
    Would Jesus be in favour of rape victims being forced to remain pregnant? Or is he a bit iffy on whether raped suicidal children should give birth against their wishes? Is it a grey area?


  • #411
    jaffacakesyum
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,207 ✭✭✭jaffacakesyum


    Pompey Magnus wrote: »
    Should that apply across the board so? Should euthanasia be introduced because the poor can't afford a flight to Switzerland? Should prostitution be legalised because the poor can't afford a trip to Amsterdam? Should heroin use be legalised because the poor can't afford a flight to Vancouver?

    Apart from euthanasia which is debatable (another thread from another time), having access to prostitution (which, for the record I believe should be legalised) or heroin is not a human right. In my opinion, having control over your own body is a human right. Women should not be forced to put their bodies through so much physical and mental trauma for a baby they do not wish to or cannot provide for. Religion aside, there is no reasonable argument why women should not be allowed an early term abortion.


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  • #412
    St.Spodo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,027 ✭✭✭St.Spodo


    philologos wrote: »
    Link? This is also on the assumption that the WSM are right and the Gardai are wrong which is questionable.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpWKJoIN_wE


    This gives an indication of the scale of the march.


  • #413
    Pompey Magnus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,406 ✭✭✭Pompey Magnus


    lazygal wrote: »
    Can you answer on abortion? Poor women can't have abortion but those with money can. So poor women are forced to remain pregnant, while others aren't.

    Yes I can, I live in Ireland and Ireland is a sovereign state. I do not believe in changing our law for the simple reason that the UK decided to change it's.


  • #414
    lazygal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    Min wrote: »

    Pro-life are concerned about all life, pro-choice are concerned about allowing some life to be terminated.

    You do know Marie Stopes - a nasty woman given her love of a certain figure in WW2 and her hatred of Jews, now famous for clinics in the business of terminations, well an Irish woman nearly died in one of her clinics in London, is this the safe and legal abortion you talk about?

    http://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/doctor-struck-off-as-abortion-nearly-kills-irish-woman-2952713.html

    This this from the Mail

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-172957/Botched-abortion-doc-keeps-job.html

    Legal abortion with the myth of it being safe abortion. Wouldn't you rather be poor than having a legal abortion in the belief it will be 100% a safe abortion and ending up in hospital for months.


    How do you feel about pro-choice IFPA telling women - potentially the poor women you talk about, on how to smuggle the abortion pill illegally into this country and then not tell their doctor they had an abortion even though this potentially is putting their lives at risk?
    Do you support repealing the right to travel and information? What do you think of rogue pregnancy advise clinics that show women films of abortion? Do you think women should remain pregnant, regardless of any risk to health, as opposed to life?


  • #415
    ScumLord
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,788 ✭✭✭✭ScumLord


    Min wrote: »
    Maybe popular among the pro-choice but what is happening in China and India - gendercide is happening in England. Lord Steel never thought there would be this liberal abortion system in England - 1 in 5 pregnancies aborted.
    The thing is countries with abortions need immigration to replace the missing people who were intentionally terminated.
    China and India have a culture that promotes male children. We don't so that's not going to become an issue, Irish parents don't care if they have a boy or a girl.

    I'm assuming that "gendercide" in the UK is a continuation of that culture.


  • #416
    lazygal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    Pompey Magnus wrote: »

    Yes I can, I live in Ireland and Ireland is a sovereign state. I do not believe in changing our law for the simple reason that the UK decided to change it's.
    Should the right to information and travel be repealed to protect the unborn?


  • #417
    Min
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,550 ✭✭✭Min


    lazygal wrote: »
    Would Jesus be in favour of rape victims being forced to remain pregnant? Or is he a bit iffy on whether raped suicidal children should give birth against their wishes? Is it a grey area?

    Jesus would be in favour of the 10 commandments.

    Do not kill.


  • #418
    Pompey Magnus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,406 ✭✭✭Pompey Magnus


    jaffacakesyum wrote: »
    Apart from euthanasia which is debatable (another thread from another time), having access to prostitution (which, for the record I believe should be legalised) or heroin is not a human right.

    Is abortion a legally recognised human right? Is it enshrined in the UN Declaration of Human Rights?


  • #419
    Pompey Magnus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,406 ✭✭✭Pompey Magnus


    lazygal wrote: »
    Should the right to information and travel be repealed to protect the unborn?

    No.


  • #420
    lazygal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    Min wrote: »

    Jesus would be in favour of the 10 commandments.

    Do not kill.
    Even if continuing a pregnancy threatens a woman's health, and then her life? Jesus sounds like a control freak.


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  • #421
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,808 ✭✭✭✭smash


    Min wrote: »
    Pro-life are concerned about all life, pro-choice are concerned about allowing some life to be terminated.

    And this is why the phrase "pro-life" annoyed me so much. It automatically suggests that pro-choice means anti-life.

    As an atheist, I'm going to start telling people that I'm "pro-truth" or "pro-reality" and see how the theists react to it.


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