David McKittrick; These protests are NOT over the flag.

gallag · 21-01-2013 02:10PM

Thomas_I wrote: »

I can´t see any reason for why that should happen again (a united ireland within the UK).

And I cant see any reason why n.ireland would choise to align itself with the politically corrupt south and emburden their children with the debt the south has amassed and accept worse public services I.e no NHS etc.
I would imagine its more likely that ireland will be bankrupt, and when the hospitals, schools etc start closing, probably coinciding with another Dail/public services pay rise the people will start to question if the free state project has been successful and look for an alternative.
I imagine that that a child born in Dublin today could be the prime minister of the united kingdom of great Britain and ireland.

The only real challenge will be getting the British people on board with the idea, but I would imagine having a joint policy on corporation tax and the billions saved from n.i would help swing it.
How many people in ireland would vote to join the uk just for the free health care let alone being dissatisfied with their curopt government?

Chuck Stone · 21-01-2013 03:07PM

gallag wrote: »

How many people in ireland would vote to join the uk just for the free health care

An insignificant percentage imho. Also, healthcare isn't 'free'. Someone pays somehow.

let alone being dissatisfied with their curopt government?

There is massive dissatisfaction with our tag-team shower of fuck-wits in the Dail but, on balance, people don't have it too bad here.

Thomas_I · 21-01-2013 03:08PM

junder wrote: »

The chances are I have Viking, Norman, Saxon and thanks to the Roman Empire ancestors from far Eastern Europe, I am not what my ancestors where, I am what I am now and that is northern Irish and a British citizen

"The chances are" what?

I´m not refering to tribes like Vikings, Normans, Saxons or some from far Eastern Europe in regards to the term "ancestory". Precisely it´s whether your ancestors who settled in Ulster during the plantation came from Scotland, England or maybe Wales. The reference goes to these countries and equal ethnic definition.

Well, I leave it to you to define yourself as you like it for it is your choice to do so. Just remember this, you can´t get rid of your ancestors whether you like it or not and even your own "modern" defintion of your being "northern Irish and a British citizen" doesn´t alter that. Maybe your definition might be something others of your lot as well could get accustomed to.

At least the Ulster-Scots are some people who know about their heritage and have no reason to hid it. That deserves some respect indeed.

blahfckingblah · 21-01-2013 03:09PM

junder wrote: »

The chances are I have Viking, Norman, Saxon and thanks to the Roman Empire ancestors from far Eastern Europe, I am not what my ancestors where, I am what I am now and that is northern Irish and a British citizen

seems like its in your blood to embrace a change in cultures

Happyman42 · 21-01-2013 03:15PM

gallag wrote: »

How many people in ireland would vote to join the uk just for the free health care let alone being dissatisfied with their curopt government?

How many would jump from the frying pan into the fire, you mean?
On a scale of corruption and immoral governance, Ireland is in the ha-penny place in comparison to Britian, as it runs around bowing and scraping and prostituting itself to the real world powers in an attempt to convince it's citizens that it is still a world player.
You are making a disgusting comparison. A coterie of amatuer politicians ****ed up here, we'll get through it and learn the lessons and move on.

Iwasfrozen · 21-01-2013 03:15PM

blahfckingblah wrote: »

seems like its in your blood to embrace a change in cultures

Seems like it's in your blood to be colonised. Now don't be ridiculous.

gallag · 21-01-2013 03:22PM

Happyman42 wrote: »

How many would jump from the frying pan into the fire, you mean?
On a scale of corruption and immoral governance, Ireland is in the ha-penny place in comparison to Britian, as it runs around bowing and scraping and prostituting itself to the real world powers in an attempt to convince it's citizens that it is still a world player.
You are making a disgusting comparison. A coterie of amatuer politicians ****ed up here, we'll get through it and learn the lessons and move on.

So is GB not a world player?

http://www.economywatch.com/economies-in-top/?page=full

Is your hate maby blinding you?

Thomas_I · 21-01-2013 03:22PM

gallag wrote: »

And I cant see any reason why n.ireland would choise to align itself with the politically corrupt south and emburden their children with the debt the south has amassed and accept worse public services I.e no NHS etc.

Excuse me? Your argument sounds a bit funny to me given that you´re suggesting that the UK has no deficit and all the UK Governments went down the road all just honourable.

gallag wrote: »

I would imagine its more likely that ireland will be bankrupt, and when the hospitals, schools etc start closing, probably coinciding with another Dail/public services pay rise the people will start to question if the free state project has been successful and look for an alternative.

Following the Scottish pattern leading to the act of Union in 1707? Hopefully this won´t happen. Besides, the Scottish may decide otherwise next year.

gallag wrote: »

I imagine that that a child born in Dublin today could be the prime minister of the united kingdom of great Britain and ireland.

It´s possible that a child born in Dublin today could be the PM of the UK in the future, given that the child will be taken to the mainland UK, raised there and the UK itself will still exist when it is grown up. The other thing is rather like a joke.

gallag wrote: »

The only real challenge will be getting the British people on board with the idea, but I would imagine having a joint policy on corporation tax and the billions saved from n.i would help swing it.
How many people in ireland would vote to join the uk just for the free health care let alone being dissatisfied with their curopt government?

Wait for it when PM Cameron resumes his attempt to abolish the free health care. The "Master of austerities" surely has yet some "goodies" in his pocket and then watch the riots across the UK again as it happened in 2011.

Once again, according to your post it doesn´t counts what the reality is. Well, it´s just your dreaming.

Thomas_I · 21-01-2013 03:28PM

Happyman42 wrote: »

... in comparison to Britian, as it runs around bowing and scraping and prostituting itself to the real world powers in an attempt to convince it's citizens that it is still a world player...

That statement is imo too rude and by all means, the UK doesn´t deserves such slandering. I just like to remember that it was the UK Government who helped the Irish Government financially during the recent Bank crisis.

Madam · 21-01-2013 03:54PM

Thomas_I wrote: »

That statement is imo too rude and by all means, the UK doesn´t deserves such slandering. I just like to remember that it was the UK Government who helped the Irish Government financially during the recent Bank crisis.

I think you'll find a few other countries whipped in as well(I personally don't mind helping out my neighbour when they find themselves in difficulty - that just what a good neighbour does;))!

Happyman42 · 21-01-2013 04:11PM

Thomas_I wrote: »

That statement is imo too rude and by all means, the UK doesn´t deserves such slandering. I just like to remember that it was the UK Government who helped the Irish Government financially during the recent Bank crisis.

The British helped us because it was solely in their interests that we didn't go under. It had nothing to do with generosity. They are in fact as much up the swaney as us in many respects.
However, I don't mean to imply that I 'hate' the British, I don't, I just get angry when Irish people buy into the idea that they are more moral or superior as a government. Not when I read something like this anyway and think of what else is to come as the secrets come out about what went on when they had the power to stop the carnage and put the lid back on. This is stuff that affected REAL Irish people, approved by a government some would want governing them.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/weekend/2013/0119/1224329033796.html

Chuck Stone · 21-01-2013 04:17PM

Thomas_I wrote: »

I just like to remember that it was the UK Government who helped the Irish Government financially during the recent Bank crisis.

The UK govt. was merely protecting British national interests (big business/finance).

Chancellor George Osborne has told MPs it is in the UK interest to join a rescue package for the Irish economy - including a direct bilateral loan.

He said Ireland was a "friend in need", a major trading partner with a banking sector closely linked to the UK's.

bbc.co.uk/news

If Ireland had gone tits-up British business/finance would have suffered massive losses.

junder · 21-01-2013 04:31PM

Thomas_I wrote: »

"The chances are" what?

I´m not refering to tribes like Vikings, Normans, Saxons or some from far Eastern Europe in regards to the term "ancestory". Precisely it´s whether your ancestors who settled in Ulster during the plantation came from Scotland, England or maybe Wales. The reference goes to these countries and equal ethnic definition.

Well, I leave it to you to define yourself as you like it for it is your choice to do so. Just remember this, you can´t get rid of your ancestors whether you like it or not and even your own "modern" defintion of your being "northern Irish and a British citizen" doesn´t alter that. Maybe your definition might be something others of your lot as well could get accustomed to.

At least the Ulster-Scots are some people who know about their heritage and have no reason to hid it. That deserves some respect indeed.

And I have a traceable and fascinating ulster-scot heretige and history that goes back to the Scottish Borders lands (which is where my eastern European ancestry comes, since one of the last roman legions that got left behind at hadrians wall when the empire collapsed where from what is now Slovakia, but I digress) however we are constantly told by certain Irish people that ulster - scot is not an idenity, so which is it?

Thomas_I · 21-01-2013 04:42PM

junder wrote: »

And I have a traceable and fascinating ulster-scot heretige and history that goes back to the Scottish Borders lands (which is where my eastern European ancestry comes, since one of the last roman legions that got left behind at hadrians wall when the empire collapsed where from what is now Slovakia, but I digress) however we are constantly told by certain Irish people that ulster - scot is not an idenity, so which is it?

Never mind them saying so, because "Ulster-Scot" is an identity imo because it has the link to the Scottish who settled in Ulster. So you´re one of them in this regards. Well, you can tell me on here what you like, I can´t scrutinize it if it´s not true. What makes you think it´s better to "call yourself northern Irish British citizen" than to plain state you´re a "Ulster-Scot"?

Thomas_I · 21-01-2013 04:49PM

Chuck Stone wrote: »

The UK govt. was merely protecting British national interests (big business/finance).

Chancellor George Osborne has told MPs it is in the UK interest to join a rescue package for the Irish economy - including a direct bilateral loan.

He said Ireland was a "friend in need", a major trading partner with a banking sector closely linked to the UK's.

bbc.co.uk/news

If Ireland had gone tits-up British business/finance would have suffered massive losses.

So for the reasons you said, does this help appeare in your opinion as less honourable? I wouldn´t mind these reasons because when Ireland can benefit from the UK protecting its own national interests, I see no moral or whatsoever problem in taking the help offered. They offered it to Ireland, not the other way round. "Ireland - a friend in need" means nothing to you?

Thomas_I · 21-01-2013 04:58PM

Happyman42 wrote: »

The British helped us because it was solely in their interests that we didn't go under. It had nothing to do with generosity. They are in fact as much up the swaney as us in many respects.
However, I don't mean to imply that I 'hate' the British, I don't, I just get angry when Irish people buy into the idea that they are more moral or superior as a government. Not when I read something like this anyway and think of what else is to come as the secrets come out about what went on when they had the power to stop the carnage and put the lid back on. This is stuff that affected REAL Irish people, approved by a government some would want governing them.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/weekend/2013/0119/1224329033796.html

I wouldn´t expect generosity from the UK in the light of the mess they´re in themselves, but at least they stepped forward. The interpretation of that by other Irish people in re of the UK being more moral or superior is another thing. I wouldn´t buy that idea because it´s far from the truth.

junder · 21-01-2013 05:37PM

Thomas_I wrote: »

Never mind them saying so, because "Ulster-Scot" is an identity imo because it has the link to the Scottish who settled in Ulster. So you´re one of them in this regards. Well, you can tell me on here what you like, I can´t scrutinize it if it´s not true. What makes you think it´s better to "call yourself northern Irish British citizen" than to plain state you´re a "Ulster-Scot"?

Because Northern Ireland is the name of the country I live in er go northern Irish. Another reason and the last census seems to agree is that northern Irish is an idenity that both community's can live with

GRMA · 21-01-2013 05:37PM

The UK gave us a loan. they will get paid back with interest. they only did so because if we collapsed (the banks) so would have many of theirs. Same as the reason Germany needed to bail us out, their banks were massively exposed to Irish banks.

None of this bailout malarkey going on has anything to do with generosity, it has everything to do with saving their own skin.

Lingua Franca · 21-01-2013 05:46PM

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-15748696

Check out how much Ireland owes the UK... and how much the UK owes Ireland.

gallag · 21-01-2013 06:34PM

The bailout loans to ireland are a pittance to the irish economy compared to the ability for many irish people to find work in the UK, the UK and ireland are already intertwined, reforming will be a small step.

Happyman42 · 21-01-2013 06:44PM

gallag wrote: »

The bailout loans to ireland are a pittance to the irish economy compared to the ability for many irish people to find work in the UK, the UK and ireland are already intertwined, reforming will be a small step.

Maybe when they face up to how disastrous their intervention in other countries has been for the indigneous people and stop doing it, we might consider teaching them the benefits of neutrality and giving true & generous foreign aid. Joining them in a union?...nope, not gonna happen.

gallag · 21-01-2013 07:44PM

Happyman42 wrote: »

Maybe when they face up to how disastrous their intervention in other countries has been for the indigneous people and stop doing it, we might consider teaching them the benefits of neutrality and giving true & generous foreign aid. Joining them in a union?...nope, not gonna happen.

You can only be neutral when you know other people will protect you, I would imagine if the mainland did not exist ireland would be a french colony, ireland does not choose to be neutral, it has no choice. if the shoe was on the other foot and ireland happend to be the big island do you think think things would be diffrent? And the UK gives massive amounts of foreign aid, without winging about it. You aspire for a united ireland, I aspire for a united kingdom, none of us can say its not going to happen but I believe Ireland reforming is more likely.

GRMA · 21-01-2013 07:46PM

Mainland :rolleyes:

karma_ · 21-01-2013 08:10PM

junder wrote: »

And I have a traceable and fascinating ulster-scot heretige and history that goes back to the Scottish Borders lands (which is where my eastern European ancestry comes, since one of the last roman legions that got left behind at hadrians wall when the empire collapsed where from what is now Slovakia, but I digress) however we are constantly told by certain Irish people that ulster - scot is not an idenity, so which is it?

No Roman Legion got abandoned during the Roman retreat. Had they, they would not have survived. Perhaps you are mixing this story up with the King Arthur legends?

Happyman42 · 21-01-2013 08:57PM

gallag wrote: »

You can only be neutral when you know other people will protect you, I would imagine if the mainland did not exist ireland would be a french colony, ireland does not choose to be neutral, it has no choice. if the shoe was on the other foot and ireland happend to be the big island do you think think things would be diffrent? And the UK gives massive amounts of foreign aid, without winging about it. You aspire for a united ireland, I aspire for a united kingdom, none of us can say its not going to happen but I believe Ireland reforming is more likely.

Like most Unionists you live in a fantasy world of if's, do you think the Scots Ulsters or Ulster Scots would be here without protection from the bullyboy next door?
Ireland chose to be neutral, it could have like many other countries joined with the Allies but it stood up to Churchill's bully boy tactics and American disapproval and paddled it's own canoe.
Can Britian say it did that, does it do it even today? It is far from a benign force in world politics.

And the shoe isn't on the other foot, this is the real world.

gallag · 21-01-2013 09:42PM

Happyman42 wrote: »

Like most Unionists you live in a fantasy world of if's, do you think the Scots Ulsters or Ulster Scots would be here without protection from the bullyboy next door?
Ireland chose to be it could have like many other countries joined with the Allies but it stood up to Churchill's bully boy tactics and American disapproval and paddled it's own canoe.
Can Britian say it did that, does it do it even today? It is far from a benign force in world politics.

And the shoe isn't on the other foot, this is the real world.

I am admittedly lost now, are you saying GB fighting in ww2 was wrong? And ireland did not join the war effort out of morals etc it was self interest, I would imagine the irish people were pretty glad the allies won though?

Happyman42 · 21-01-2013 10:38PM

gallag wrote: »

I would imagine the irish people were pretty glad the allies won though?

I'm not sure the nationalists and catholics of NI would have noticed much of a difference tbh thankfully they had an Underground like the French to shake off the oppressors.

gallag · 21-01-2013 11:14PM

Happyman42 wrote: »

I'm not sure the nationalists and catholics of NI would have noticed much of a difference tbh thankfully they had an Underground like the French to shake off the oppressors.

Seriously? If it was not for the IRA killing people the British army would never have been on the streets over here, the IRA set the nationlist movement back decades and mabey forever, if we take the total casualties of the troubles at around 3000 and though the IRA killed over half of that total many IRA victims were Catholic so say about 1500 Catholics died in the troubles can you not imagine Hitler making that number seem tiny? Every traveler family for a start.

Remember the British army totaled 300 kills during the troubles, in context that number is tiny and on the whole shows the British army were not the blood thirsty monster's you paint them as, by no means perfect but I cant imagine many other armys coming out of a bloody civil war with that low number of kills. Over 20,000 dead in a short period in syira for example.

Again, I am not saying the BA were perfect, bloddy sunday etc but to say Hitler invading and ruling would be better????????

junder · 21-01-2013 11:42PM

karma_ wrote: »

No Roman Legion got abandoned during the Roman retreat. Had they, they would not have survived. Perhaps you are mixing this story up with the King Arthur legends?

Quite a few 'Romans' got left behind more over the 'clan' I belong to are doing a DNA project which brought to light the eastern European ancestry but I'm not about to give you my name for you to check it out but your welcome to read up on the history of the border reivers it's quite interesting

junder · 21-01-2013 11:44PM

Happyman42 wrote: »

Like most Unionists you live in a fantasy world of if's, do you think the Scots Ulsters or Ulster Scots would be here without protection from the bullyboy next door?
Ireland chose to be neutral, it could have like many other countries joined with the Allies but it stood up to Churchill's bully boy tactics and American disapproval and paddled it's own canoe.
Can Britian say it did that, does it do it even today? It is far from a benign force in world politics.

And the shoe isn't on the other foot, this is the real world.

Yer churchhills bully boy tactics of offering Northern Ireland back to dev in return for use of the treaty ports

David McKittrick; These protests are NOT over the flag.

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