Do you know anyone who is illiterate?

stmol32 · 20-01-2013 04:05AM #1

A funny thing happened the other day.

I was queuing at an ATM and there was a woman ahead of me aged 60's maybe a young 70's taking ages (I wasn't moaning because I'm not an asshead but I did notice she was taking a while).

She looked behind and called me up to help her because "shure I can't figure out them computer talk" or words to that effect - proper northside Dublin brogue like me and mine.

I work in IT and I immediately go into teacher mode whenever someone gives me that sort of cue so I started telling her what each screen was saying and which buttons to press.

I should also say it was an enormous amount of trust this lady placed in me not to rob her.

I explained what the ATM was asking and which button to press and each time she just said "yeah that's grand".

It was only after she went I realised maybe she wasn't not IT savvy (ATMs have been around a fair few years) but actually that's her way of coping as a non reader in a world of printed words.

I didn't register this until I saw the ads on telly offering services for people who need to improve their reading.

I'm presuming everyone on boards knows how to read and write (usually quite badly

) but I'm asking how common is it for people to have such poor reading skills that they need help?

DylanII · 20-01-2013 04:08AM

It could have been her eyesight. I can't see how someone could live that long and not pick up the basics?

1ZRed · 20-01-2013 04:08AM

Someone's had an eventful Saturday night

Where To · 20-01-2013 04:09AM

It's not uncommon for people that age to be illiterate. I even hear people in my age group, who have young kids, harping on about school being a waste of time.

Bad Santa · 20-01-2013 04:13AM

Last week was at an ATM and the old lady in front of me was clearly struggling.
She was taking ages and a queue had formed.
After a few minutes she turned around and asked me to check her balance.
So I pushed her over.

DEFTLEFTHAND · 20-01-2013 04:16AM

It's not that uncommon I've had clients before who were, when signing a legal document the client has to read it beforehand, they'll get flustered and say they forgot their glasses and ask me to read it for them. I don't even flinch I'd never embarrass a person like that.

Itwasntme. · 20-01-2013 04:24AM

Yes, yes I do.

stmol32 · 20-01-2013 04:33AM

1ZRed wrote: »

Someone's had an eventful Saturday night

I meant a while ago.
But to be honest a Saturday night sitting on the couch telly in one ear AH in another whiskey on the coffee table..... that's about as wild as Saturday gets when you're my age you cheeky young c**t pup.

cassid · 20-01-2013 04:35AM

People who are in their 60's & 70's now, may have left school at 13-14 to go to work to bring money home for larger families back in the day. MY mothers family had loads of kids and 13 was a standard age, she lasted a bit longer as she was the youngest.

I remember speaking to a guy about not being able to read or write very well. He could only buy tins of food if it had a picture on it, would have to ask the chemist to repeat the dosage of drugs, would have loads of excuses for not filling in forms etc, always took them home to his wife. He had devised a whole way of dealing with it in his world, none of his friends/family/or work colleagues ever knew

banquo · 20-01-2013 04:49AM

I used to tutor for NALA, which basically helps adults with literacy and numeracy skills. It was probably the most interesting thing I ever did.

Some of the students had an incredible short term memory through sheer exercise. For example, they may work in a kitchen and be told to prepare some ingredients. "Um, call it out to me there?" And it would be some mad long list of ingredients and instructions and they had to remember it or else they'd be fired. So they might have trouble reading their phone bill, but you can be damn sure they remember just about anything they've ever been told. It's really incredible.

stmol32 · 20-01-2013 04:51AM

Where To wrote: »

It's not uncommon for people that age to be illiterate. I even hear people in my age group, who have young kids, harping on about school being a waste of time.

She was definitely of the same age as me parents i.e. the generation of the smack the head off them rather than learn them proper teachers/brothers/nuns.

When I was in school (1980 - 1993) we had a very varied group of people. Some where brainy some weren't, most were in between.
It was just when corporal punishment became illegal in Ireland which shouldn't mean anything to the debate some teachers did an some teachers didn't, which has to effect your teaching style.
The one we all had in common was an ability to read, however slow or fast we could all do it.

The reason I started this post was to try and gauge how common this issue was - not only necessarily with that generation but also generations where they didn't batter you but maybe you still don't feel too comfortable with reading.

Ando's Saggy Bottom · 20-01-2013 04:54AM

Could the OP be any more patronizing?

stmol32 · 20-01-2013 05:03AM

banquo wrote: »

I used to tutor for NALA, which basically helps adults with literacy and numeracy skills. It was probably the most interesting thing I ever did.

Some of the students had an incredible short term memory through sheer exercise. For example, they may work in a kitchen and be told to prepare some ingredients. "Um, call it out to me there?" And it would be some mad long list of ingredients and instructions and they had to remember it or else they'd be fired. So they might have trouble reading their phone bill, but you can be damn sure they remember just about anything they've ever been told. It's really incredible.

I like this post.

When I was in school a (favourite) teacher first talked to us about adult literacy and said "it's amazing to me how clever the the tricks adult illiterates come up with to cover their illiteracy...you'd be surprised". This teachers words always stuck with me that's why when I met this lady that day I remembered what he said.

I should add that after he said that he also said (bold added by me to represent teacher shouting) "When I say illiterate tricks I don't mean in any way to comment on their intelligence, I am commenting on the sh*tty state of education in this state of Ireland"

Seriously science knows I didn't realise it at the time, but as an adult and parent ... Ballymun Comprehensive and Joe O'Brien.... I got a pretty good start in life.

stmol32 · 20-01-2013 05:12AM

Pete Campbell wrote: »

Could the OP be any more patronizing?

When we're not in America we spell it patronising.

Only joking I hope this didn't come across wrong I'm not trying to slag the woman in the OP or be a c*nt I genuinely wanted to start to start a discussion on adult literacy to gauge how widespread it was because unlike most issues (litter, homelessness, crime) I could genuinely do something about this one if I volunteered.

grenache · 20-01-2013 05:13AM

Pete Campbell wrote: »

Could the OP be any more patronizing?

Don't think he's doing any patronising. He's merely asking the question. I'm curious myself about it.

MadsL · 20-01-2013 07:27AM

I was active in the campaign to save Frawley's, I handed out a number of flyers to the traders on Meath St and Thomas St. Some were handed back with the wink, no good to me son. Can't read. That said I was later involved with the Meath St traders getting a lobby group together and there were some very sharp minds there.

Rasheed · 20-01-2013 07:43AM

Yeah, I noticed it a fair bit at work, same as another poster, when asking for signatures.

I think some people either fell behind in school, were undiagnosed dyslexic, or didn't go/ had to leave early for family/ financial reasons.

I was looking up the old census from 1901/ 1911 and it'll tell you who was able to read and write or speak Irish. There was a surprisingly high amount of literacy for the time,I thought.

johnolocher · 20-01-2013 08:52AM

My old house mate / landlord aged 30 had terrible reading and writing skills, I never really delved because I didnt want to embarrass him but I don't think it was dyslexia or anything because his girlfriend just said he wasn't good at it. I saw a page of notes e had taken in night school once and it was like an 8 year olds, handwriting and everything. I wrote my own reference and everything when leaving so as not to embarrass him.

The education system here as a lot to answer for, maybe spend less time of religion and Irish?

JupiterKid · 20-01-2013 10:52AM

I went to school the same time as the OP so I'd be about the same age and I recall a teacher telling us about his days in school when the "teacher" - a Christian brother - would beat the kids to a pulp and fear reigned in the classroom. He told us that a few kids left school unable to read or write properly and that would have been in the 1950s - not all that long ago.

I'm pretty sure all my grandparents were able to read and write but I think if you go back to that generation - born just before or during World War 1 - you would find many that lived their entire lives illiterate.

There's also the issue of "functional literacy" where people can read and understand basic instructions and write basic notes but can't read a novel or write an essay.

mikemac1 · 20-01-2013 11:13AM

Secondary school was for those who could pay fees.

If you were young and in 6th class you could stay on and repeat the year

There was no official 7th class but it was the same thing

Pretty easy to fall through and leave school at 12 with hardly any skills

But you'd compensate and as said above a person may be illiterate but they are ridiculously sharp.
You don't become a market trader if you can't do sums in seconds

And even if had good skills and your inter-cert the ladies were still forced to resign from the civil service when they got married.
Years of schooling for what? A few years as a clerical officer.

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Barna77 · 20-01-2013 11:29AM

My grandfather was, but I never knew until some time before he died years ago. He managed with numbers and figures as he'd go to the shops to buy food and groceries.

Wibbs · 20-01-2013 11:31AM

Some recent report or other found that today one in four school leaving boys are functionally illiterate. Link warning it's a link to a .PDF not a webpage.

Its a bloody scandal TBH. Add in other serious failures in our education system(lack of science uptake/dodgy numeracy skills/drop in standards of university degrees) and we don't look good on the international stage and this will impact us more and more.

ElleEm · 20-01-2013 11:35AM

I know a man who runs a business (and has done for years) who can barely read or write. His wife looks after all the paperwork for him. He is in his 50's.
I have worked with young people in the past, some who had very basic literacy skills. They could barely read and would often refuse to write anything other than their name. We actually referred a few of them to NALA, and the young people were often surprised at the range of age at these classes.
I have also come into contact with a lot of travellers who are illiterate or have very basic skills.
All of the above cases were early school leavers (from 12+).

I can't imagine how confusing it must be, even when you're not consciously reading, you need those skills.

bbam · 20-01-2013 11:39AM

I know two people who are illiterate. Both in their 50's.
Sad thing but it's still about. One is attending classes but making little progress and the other has no interest at all in learning.

ElleEm · 20-01-2013 11:50AM

bbam wrote: »

I know two people who are illiterate. Both in their 50's.
Sad thing but it's still about. One is attending classes but making little progress and the other has no interest at all in learning.

At that age, I can only guess how daunting the experience of learning to read or write may be.
And I would imagine that it's a case of "I've gotten this far without it...".

ITS_A_BADGER · 20-01-2013 12:16PM

My mother and father are well educated and in their late 60's and can read write etc and both have wits as sharp as tacks, However when it comes to anything to do with computers, they just dont get it. I had to teach dad how to use the Atm 3 -4 times as he was afraid of pressing the wrong button and doing something wrong and my mother refuses to use it flat out! I think people of of that generation are afraid of using IT technology as they dont really understand it. Just last night even i was at my parents house and he wanted me to ask google a question for him (such a cute way to ask ) to find his old school mate from 45 years ago, all he had was his name an occuaption and nothing else didnt know if he was in the country abroad or whatever. after i seached i named out a few of the results but no where near what he was looking for. I told him i needed more information to narrow down the search but he said thats all he knew of him. He then went on to say sher he"ll see that on the internet now and reply. In his mind if you type something into google its there for the world to see and he was hoping somehow that the person would see it and send a message back.

TL;dR She probably wasnt illiterate but just didnt know how to use an ATM and was afraid to press the wrong thing

starlings · 20-01-2013 12:17PM

stmol32 wrote: »

It was only after she went I realised maybe she wasn't not IT savvy (ATMs have been around a fair few years) but actually that's her way of coping as a non reader in a world of printed words.

I would guess that she didn't want to chance pushing the wrong buttons as there was a potential loss or mismanagement of money involved, so she must be unfamiliar with ATMs, but the design standards that have evolved in many signs and in machine and web interfaces means that you can often navigate with instructions in a foreign language - sort of a graphic/semiotic literacy.

I find illiteracy so sad, as it cuts off a whole world of communication and pleasure and makes people dependent on others for basic tasks like the old lady you met. I started learning to read before primary school, so I can't imagine always having to go the long way round to learn or get things done. However, I take my hat off to the ability of the mind to figure things out and get around a block as illiterate people have to do.

And now I want to make friends with that old lady and start lessons over pots of tea and chats.

JupiterKid · 20-01-2013 12:25PM

But bank ATMs have been around for over 30 years now - it doesn't even require a basic knowledge of IT to operate one.

starlings · 20-01-2013 12:31PM

JupiterKid wrote: »

But bank ATMs have been around for over 30 years now - it doesn't even require a basic knowledge of IT to operate one.

You just made me think about how nerves can affect tasks like using an ATM - if it's something you seldom do, you can be thrown by a new interface or being distracted or stressed. Every time I vote, I come out of the booth, put the ballot in the box, leave the station and think - "feck, did I tick the right box?"

Cantona's Collars · 20-01-2013 12:37PM

Worked with a couple of guys who were illiterate,one was in his early 50's & the other was only 2 years older than me.A lot of it had to do with laziness on the part of the 2nd guy,he never seemed interested in learning anything but he was very clever in other ways.

IvyTheTerrible · 20-01-2013 12:45PM

My uncle-in-law is illiterate. He came over from Italy when he was 18 and while he speaks perfect French he can't read or write it. It has been very limiting to him in terms of what jobs he can do. Also it's quite difficult to manage in France if you can't read because everything is paperwork. His daughter has to do everything for him.

Do you know anyone who is illiterate?

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