Do you know anyone who is illiterate?

stmol32

A funny thing happened the other day.

I was queuing at an ATM and there was a woman ahead of me aged 60's maybe a young 70's taking ages (I wasn't moaning because I'm not an asshead but I did notice she was taking a while).

She looked behind and called me up to help her because "shure I can't figure out them computer talk" or words to that effect - proper northside Dublin brogue like me and mine.

I work in IT and I immediately go into teacher mode whenever someone gives me that sort of cue so I started telling her what each screen was saying and which buttons to press.

I should also say it was an enormous amount of trust this lady placed in me not to rob her.

I explained what the ATM was asking and which button to press and each time she just said "yeah that's grand".

It was only after she went I realised maybe she wasn't not IT savvy (ATMs have been around a fair few years) but actually that's her way of coping as a non reader in a world of printed words.

I didn't register this until I saw the ads on telly offering services for people who need to improve their reading.

I'm presuming everyone on boards knows how to read and write (usually quite badly ) but I'm asking how common is it for people to have such poor reading skills that they need help?

DylanII

It could have been her eyesight. I can't see how someone could live that long and not pick up the basics?

1ZRed

Someone's had an eventful Saturday night

Where To

It's not uncommon for people that age to be illiterate. I even hear people in my age group, who have young kids, harping on about school being a waste of time.

Bad Santa

Last week was at an ATM and the old lady in front of me was clearly struggling.
She was taking ages and a queue had formed.
After a few minutes she turned around and asked me to check her balance.
So I pushed her over.

DEFTLEFTHAND

It's not that uncommon I've had clients before who were, when signing a legal document the client has to read it beforehand, they'll get flustered and say they forgot their glasses and ask me to read it for them. I don't even flinch I'd never embarrass a person like that.

Itwasntme.

Yes, yes I do.

stmol32

1ZRed wrote: »

Someone's had an eventful Saturday night

I meant a while ago.
But to be honest a Saturday night sitting on the couch telly in one ear AH in another whiskey on the coffee table..... that's about as wild as Saturday gets when you're my age you cheeky young c**t pup.

cassid

People who are in their 60's & 70's now, may have left school at 13-14 to go to work to bring money home for larger families back in the day. MY mothers family had loads of kids and 13 was a standard age, she lasted a bit longer as she was the youngest.

I remember speaking to a guy about not being able to read or write very well. He could only buy tins of food if it had a picture on it, would have to ask the chemist to repeat the dosage of drugs, would have loads of excuses for not filling in forms etc, always took them home to his wife. He had devised a whole way of dealing with it in his world, none of his friends/family/or work colleagues ever knew

banquo

I used to tutor for NALA, which basically helps adults with literacy and numeracy skills. It was probably the most interesting thing I ever did.

Some of the students had an incredible short term memory through sheer exercise. For example, they may work in a kitchen and be told to prepare some ingredients. "Um, call it out to me there?" And it would be some mad long list of ingredients and instructions and they had to remember it or else they'd be fired. So they might have trouble reading their phone bill, but you can be damn sure they remember just about anything they've ever been told. It's really incredible.

stmol32

Where To wrote: »

It's not uncommon for people that age to be illiterate. I even hear people in my age group, who have young kids, harping on about school being a waste of time.

She was definitely of the same age as me parents i.e. the generation of the smack the head off them rather than learn them proper teachers/brothers/nuns.

When I was in school (1980 - 1993) we had a very varied group of people. Some where brainy some weren't, most were in between.
It was just when corporal punishment became illegal in Ireland which shouldn't mean anything to the debate some teachers did an some teachers didn't, which has to effect your teaching style.
The one we all had in common was an ability to read, however slow or fast we could all do it.

The reason I started this post was to try and gauge how common this issue was - not only necessarily with that generation but also generations where they didn't batter you but maybe you still don't feel too comfortable with reading.

Ando's Saggy Bottom

Could the OP be any more patronizing?

stmol32

banquo wrote: »

I used to tutor for NALA, which basically helps adults with literacy and numeracy skills. It was probably the most interesting thing I ever did.

Some of the students had an incredible short term memory through sheer exercise. For example, they may work in a kitchen and be told to prepare some ingredients. "Um, call it out to me there?" And it would be some mad long list of ingredients and instructions and they had to remember it or else they'd be fired. So they might have trouble reading their phone bill, but you can be damn sure they remember just about anything they've ever been told. It's really incredible.

I like this post.

When I was in school a (favourite) teacher first talked to us about adult literacy and said "it's amazing to me how clever the the tricks adult illiterates come up with to cover their illiteracy...you'd be surprised". This teachers words always stuck with me that's why when I met this lady that day I remembered what he said.

I should add that after he said that he also said (bold added by me to represent teacher shouting) "When I say illiterate tricks I don't mean in any way to comment on their intelligence, I am commenting on the sh*tty state of education in this state of Ireland"

Seriously science knows I didn't realise it at the time, but as an adult and parent ... Ballymun Comprehensive and Joe O'Brien.... I got a pretty good start in life.

stmol32

Pete Campbell wrote: »

Could the OP be any more patronizing?

When we're not in America we spell it patronising.

Only joking I hope this didn't come across wrong I'm not trying to slag the woman in the OP or be a c*nt I genuinely wanted to start to start a discussion on adult literacy to gauge how widespread it was because unlike most issues (litter, homelessness, crime) I could genuinely do something about this one if I volunteered.

grenache

Pete Campbell wrote: »

Could the OP be any more patronizing?

Don't think he's doing any patronising. He's merely asking the question. I'm curious myself about it.

MadsL

I was active in the campaign to save Frawley's, I handed out a number of flyers to the traders on Meath St and Thomas St. Some were handed back with the wink, no good to me son. Can't read. That said I was later involved with the Meath St traders getting a lobby group together and there were some very sharp minds there.

Rasheed

Yeah, I noticed it a fair bit at work, same as another poster, when asking for signatures.

I think some people either fell behind in school, were undiagnosed dyslexic, or didn't go/ had to leave early for family/ financial reasons.

I was looking up the old census from 1901/ 1911 and it'll tell you who was able to read and write or speak Irish. There was a surprisingly high amount of literacy for the time,I thought.

johnolocher

My old house mate / landlord aged 30 had terrible reading and writing skills, I never really delved because I didnt want to embarrass him but I don't think it was dyslexia or anything because his girlfriend just said he wasn't good at it. I saw a page of notes e had taken in night school once and it was like an 8 year olds, handwriting and everything. I wrote my own reference and everything when leaving so as not to embarrass him.

The education system here as a lot to answer for, maybe spend less time of religion and Irish?

JupiterKid

I went to school the same time as the OP so I'd be about the same age and I recall a teacher telling us about his days in school when the "teacher" - a Christian brother - would beat the kids to a pulp and fear reigned in the classroom. He told us that a few kids left school unable to read or write properly and that would have been in the 1950s - not all that long ago.

I'm pretty sure all my grandparents were able to read and write but I think if you go back to that generation - born just before or during World War 1 - you would find many that lived their entire lives illiterate.

There's also the issue of "functional literacy" where people can read and understand basic instructions and write basic notes but can't read a novel or write an essay.

mikemac1

Secondary school was for those who could pay fees.

If you were young and in 6th class you could stay on and repeat the year

There was no official 7th class but it was the same thing

Pretty easy to fall through and leave school at 12 with hardly any skills

But you'd compensate and as said above a person may be illiterate but they are ridiculously sharp.
You don't become a market trader if you can't do sums in seconds


And even if had good skills and your inter-cert the ladies were still forced to resign from the civil service when they got married.
Years of schooling for what? A few years as a clerical officer.



Dublin tram timetable
The symbols are there for a reason

Barna77

My grandfather was, but I never knew until some time before he died years ago. He managed with numbers and figures as he'd go to the shops to buy food and groceries.

Wibbs

Some recent report or other found that today one in four school leaving boys are functionally illiterate. Link warning it's a link to a .PDF not a webpage.

Its a bloody scandal TBH. Add in other serious failures in our education system(lack of science uptake/dodgy numeracy skills/drop in standards of university degrees) and we don't look good on the international stage and this will impact us more and more.

ElleEm

I know a man who runs a business (and has done for years) who can barely read or write. His wife looks after all the paperwork for him. He is in his 50's.
I have worked with young people in the past, some who had very basic literacy skills. They could barely read and would often refuse to write anything other than their name. We actually referred a few of them to NALA, and the young people were often surprised at the range of age at these classes.
I have also come into contact with a lot of travellers who are illiterate or have very basic skills.
All of the above cases were early school leavers (from 12+).

I can't imagine how confusing it must be, even when you're not consciously reading, you need those skills.

bbam

I know two people who are illiterate. Both in their 50's.
Sad thing but it's still about. One is attending classes but making little progress and the other has no interest at all in learning.

ElleEm

bbam wrote: »

I know two people who are illiterate. Both in their 50's.
Sad thing but it's still about. One is attending classes but making little progress and the other has no interest at all in learning.

At that age, I can only guess how daunting the experience of learning to read or write may be.
And I would imagine that it's a case of "I've gotten this far without it...".

ITS_A_BADGER

My mother and father are well educated and in their late 60's and can read write etc and both have wits as sharp as tacks, However when it comes to anything to do with computers, they just dont get it. I had to teach dad how to use the Atm 3 -4 times as he was afraid of pressing the wrong button and doing something wrong and my mother refuses to use it flat out! I think people of of that generation are afraid of using IT technology as they dont really understand it. Just last night even i was at my parents house and he wanted me to ask google a question for him (such a cute way to ask ) to find his old school mate from 45 years ago, all he had was his name an occuaption and nothing else didnt know if he was in the country abroad or whatever. after i seached i named out a few of the results but no where near what he was looking for. I told him i needed more information to narrow down the search but he said thats all he knew of him. He then went on to say sher he"ll see that on the internet now and reply. In his mind if you type something into google its there for the world to see and he was hoping somehow that the person would see it and send a message back.

TL;dR She probably wasnt illiterate but just didnt know how to use an ATM and was afraid to press the wrong thing

starlings

stmol32 wrote: »

It was only after she went I realised maybe she wasn't not IT savvy (ATMs have been around a fair few years) but actually that's her way of coping as a non reader in a world of printed words.

I would guess that she didn't want to chance pushing the wrong buttons as there was a potential loss or mismanagement of money involved, so she must be unfamiliar with ATMs, but the design standards that have evolved in many signs and in machine and web interfaces means that you can often navigate with instructions in a foreign language - sort of a graphic/semiotic literacy.

I find illiteracy so sad, as it cuts off a whole world of communication and pleasure and makes people dependent on others for basic tasks like the old lady you met. I started learning to read before primary school, so I can't imagine always having to go the long way round to learn or get things done. However, I take my hat off to the ability of the mind to figure things out and get around a block as illiterate people have to do.

And now I want to make friends with that old lady and start lessons over pots of tea and chats.

JupiterKid

But bank ATMs have been around for over 30 years now - it doesn't even require a basic knowledge of IT to operate one.

starlings

JupiterKid wrote: »

But bank ATMs have been around for over 30 years now - it doesn't even require a basic knowledge of IT to operate one.

You just made me think about how nerves can affect tasks like using an ATM - if it's something you seldom do, you can be thrown by a new interface or being distracted or stressed. Every time I vote, I come out of the booth, put the ballot in the box, leave the station and think - "feck, did I tick the right box?"

Cantona's Collars

Worked with a couple of guys who were illiterate,one was in his early 50's & the other was only 2 years older than me.A lot of it had to do with laziness on the part of the 2nd guy,he never seemed interested in learning anything but he was very clever in other ways.

IvyTheTerrible

My uncle-in-law is illiterate. He came over from Italy when he was 18 and while he speaks perfect French he can't read or write it. It has been very limiting to him in terms of what jobs he can do. Also it's quite difficult to manage in France if you can't read because everything is paperwork. His daughter has to do everything for him.

Citygirl1

JupiterKid wrote: »

But bank ATMs have been around for over 30 years now - it doesn't even require a basic knowledge of IT to operate one.

I have both an aunt and an uncle (my Mum's sister and brother), who have neither of them ever owned an ATM card. I was amazed when I first realised this. It must be so tedious having to queue up in the local bank branch whenever they want to lodge or withdraw money, never having access to cash at the weekend, or being able to use a laser card.

They are both country people, in their seventies, and I guess, just never got comfortable with the idea. Edit: Both would be perfectly literate, but many older people do find any type of "technology" intimidating.

I think the OP's question about illiteracy is interesting. However, in the case of the woman he met, it is quite likely she was just not comfortable with using the ATM machine, afraid of making a mistake, or as suggested, she may have had poor eyesight.

323

Was surprised when I realized a few people I had known for years were almost or totally illiterate, just didn't recognize it.
Know at least two , mid 40's and three in mid 50's
Seems many hide it quite well, another I know around 60 just recently learned to read, who pointed out the behavior of the others to me.

Ihatecuddles-old

I know a man who was accused of a pretty serious crime in the early 90's. He wasnt tried in court because he couldn't read of write, couldn't sign his own name.

He was a traveller so maybe that's why he never learned, he worked from a young age instead of going to school.

I find that astonishing, wasn't that long ago and these days that would never be let happen.

Wibbs

Ihatecuddles wrote: »

I find that astonishing, wasn't that long ago and these days that would never be let happen.

Oh you reckon? As I said earlier;

Wibbs wrote: »

Some recent report or other found that today one in four school leaving boys are functionally illiterate. Link warning it's a link to a .PDF not a webpage.

Its a bloody scandal TBH. Add in other serious failures in our education system(lack of science uptake/dodgy numeracy skills/drop in standards of university degrees) and we don't look good on the international stage and this will impact us more and more.

Ihatecuddles-old

Wibbs wrote: »

Oh you reckon? As I said earlier;

Sorry I meant that him not being tried in court because he was illiterate would never happen these days.

admiralofthefleet

worked with a fella from rathmines who couldnt read or write, he was more embarrased about people knowing than the actual problem itself

Odysseus

I see it a bit in work, age range from 20-50. I'm always very careful the odd time I have to get a client to read or sign a document.

Itwasntme.

Wibbs wrote: »

Some recent report or other found that today one in four school leaving boys are functionally illiterate.

Its a bloody scandal TBH. Add in other serious failures in our education system(lack of science uptake/dodgy numeracy skills/drop in standards of university degrees) and we don't look good on the international stage and this will impact us more and more.

Here is a news article on the 1 in 4 stats that Wibbs talks about. We were discussing literacy and numeracy in class a few weeks ago and one of my classmates who had worked with the people who conducted the literacy and numeracy census in conjunction with the OECD said that the actual findings were worse than was reported and that the figures were changed for political reasons.

spurious

Probably 70% or more of the parents of the children I teach are illiterate or reading at a very basic level.

fall

There are children in this country starting secondary school who have a reading age of between six and eight. The text books are often at a reading age of fifteen. They never catch up in spite of massive efforts being made by schools to help them. Absenteeism and zero input from home are huge factors. Any progress made is lost when they miss school as they regress quickly. Heartbreaking.

up for anything

A lot of children in the this country when they should have left primary and gone onto secondary instead spent the the next three years in 6th class marking time until they could leave. Some were illiterate and some just had very poor reading and writing skills. There were four of these children, all boys, in the primary school I went to for 6th class.

The last person I knew of that left school illiterate was in the late 90s/early 2000s. He was in a small country school, perhaps 30 in the school. When he got to leaving 6th class it was discovered he was unable to read and had no writing skills - how this happened between his teacher (who'd taught him for perhaps the last three years) and his family I don't know except that he'd become expert in hiding the fact. He spent a few years in 6th class until he could leave. He then wanted to enter a trade but couldn't do it because he didn't have the literacy skills for the necessary FAS course so ended up getting grinds from the teacher who had spent 3 years failing to spot his difficulties. She got paid again to teach him what she should have taught him already.

Chinasea

According to the the most recent study on literacy conducted by the International Adult Literacy Survey (IALS) in 1997 it was found that Ireland had the worst literacy rates among the European countries examined.


At the time of this survey, 80% of students in Ireland completed their education to Leaving Certificate (or equivalent), with the literacy problem among older age groups being compounded by a history of relatively low educational attainment and engagement with the education system. According to the Department of Education, 33% of the Irish population over 25 years of age had received an education no higher than Junior Cert level. Among 17 to 25 year this figure was 17%, and 44% among 55 to 65 year olds.


Needless to say following on from this report a massive shift in how we, as a nation, view education was concluded a a vital component in righting this gap, however, it was established that learning can no longer be confined solely to the classroom and must be seen as a holistic endeavor encouraged and facilitated by everyone within the child's environment. Parental involvement is essential to reducing Ireland's high level of illiteracy and to ensure that every child receives a full education enabling them to partake wholly in the future of our society.

Those gaps are growing even bigger imo as we apathetically stand by.

Mr. Nice

Ihatecuddles wrote: »

I know a man who was accused of a pretty serious crime in the early 90's. He wasnt tried in court because he couldn't read of write, couldn't sign his own name.

I find that astonishing, wasn't that long ago and these days that would never be let happen.

I find that astonishing too, and also unbelievable.
What a great way to get away with a serious crime scot-free :rolleyes:

Geri Male

stmol32 wrote: »

I was queuing at an ATM and there was a woman ahead of me aged 60's maybe a young 70's taking ages (I wasn't moaning because I'm not an asshead but I did notice she was taking a while).

Why do you assume that anyone who'd complain or moan about it would be an "asshead"?

fasttalkerchat

Had a cop take a statement from me who was almost illiterate. I had to spell out the most simple of words and had to bite my tongue to avoid offending him. That one shocked me.

I have one friend who struggles with tenses when writing. He says walked but writes walk. If he reads it out he can't see a difference.

A more common problem is people who can't count money. I would say about 50% of women over 50 get flustered or struggle when using coins in shops.

Scruffles

there are alot of illiterate or semi iliterate people in ireland and england still, it can be caused by various issues; even medications can distort how someone sees letters.
most people today,in this country anyway tend to be supported if they are illiterate because it is a big vulnerability,people coud be easily gotten to sign their money away for example if they cant read a form.

reading is a big weakness of mine due to issues from severe autism and learning [intelectual] disability.
am only able to read if it is on a computer as the text needs to be huge so am able to mentaly draw around each letter a few times to process and understand it.
am in a residential centre and am under power of attorney so have a lot of support-staff will read out anything or sometimes am sent learning disability questionaires from social services which are PECS [pictorial] based.

language and understanding [comprehension?] are big weaknesses,have got a firefox addon called kitadic which easily allows definitions of what words mean-without leaving the page.
am not able to write at all but draw very well by using the hand over hand technique.

sunbeam

Rasheed wrote: »

Yeah, I noticed it a fair bit at work, same as another poster, when asking for signatures.

I think some people either fell behind in school, were undiagnosed dyslexic, or didn't go/ had to leave early for family/ financial reasons.

I was looking up the old census from 1901/ 1911 and it'll tell you who was able to read and write or speak Irish. There was a surprisingly high amount of literacy for the time,I thought.

In those days being 'able to read and write' for the purpose of the census might mean as little as being able to sign your own name and read a few basic phrases. It certainly was in my grandfather's case. He was born in 1885 and up to twenty years later the nearest school to our village was four miles away, so often attendance was sporadic. Basic arithmetic so you could deal with money was often considered more important back then.

More recently I have a cousin who was first diagnosed as dyslexic when he started college in the 1990s. Disgraceful really.

fasttalkerchat

Scruffles wrote: »

there are alot of illiterate or semi iliterate people in ireland and england still, it can be caused by various issues; even medications can distort how someone sees letters.
most people today,in this country anyway tend to be supported if they are illiterate because it is a big vulnerability,people coud be easily gotten to sign their money away for example if they cant read a form.

reading is a big weakness of mine due to issues from severe autism and learning [intelectual] disability.
am only able to read if it is on a computer as the text needs to be huge so am able to mentaly draw around each letter a few times to process and understand it.
am in a residential centre and am under power of attorney so have a lot of support-staff will read out anything or sometimes am sent learning disability questionaires from social services which are PECS [pictorial] based.

language and understanding [comprehension?] are big weaknesses,have got a firefox addon called kitadic which easily allows definitions of what words mean-without leaving the page.
am not able to write at all but draw very well by using the hand over hand technique.

I've never been able to understand that last part. Why can't you "draw" a letter?
If you can draw other things why not copy how letters appear on-screen?

Excuse my ignorance.

fasttalkerchat

sunbeam wrote: »

More recently I have a cousin who was first diagnosed as dyslexic when he started college in the 1990s. Disgraceful really.

It was still happening in 2011. And only came to light when the student in question was having problems taking notes and described it to another dyslexic student.

fasttalkerchat

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

I've never been able to understand that last part. Why can't you "draw" a letter?
If you can draw other things why not copy how letters appear on-screen?

I don't know for sure but I'd imagine that while one hand is naturally more dominant than the other, writing with a hand untrained in writing would be similar to writing using your non-dominant hand. In other words, if you're right handed, imagine trying to draw the letters on screen with your left. The reason it's hard is more to do with you never training that hand to draw letters rather than because it's your weaker hand.

I was spring cleaning a while ago and found some of my primary school copybooks. It's hard to imagine that given a whole page for one letter, I couldn't draw those basic shapes, but in retrospect, it's easy to say that when I've spent the rest of my life since then drawing those letters over and over. (and even at that, I have terrible handwriting, it's so scrawled its almost incomprehensible)