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David McKittrick; These protests are NOT over the flag.

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Comments

  • #302
    Thomas_I
    Closed Accounts Posts: 596 ✭✭✭Thomas_I


    Neutronale wrote: »
    the-irish-tricolour-the-national-flag-of-ireland-flies-over-belfast-city-hall1.jpg

    Great picture! It even looks better than the Union Flag on that building. Well, not for all I suppose.


  • #303
    junder
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,706 ✭✭✭junder


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    I call bull**** on their 365 days a year for the last 100 years too.
    How to shoot yourself in the foot over and over again. :D
    408601_455978994457481_216281633_n.jpg
    , I see no mention of city hall only parilment buildings, still if your think your right you should contact bbc and utv and correct their reporting, still what does your 'scoop' actually change?


  • #304
    Thomas_I
    Closed Accounts Posts: 596 ✭✭✭Thomas_I


    junder wrote: »
    , I see no mention of city hall only parilment buildings, still if your think your right you should contact bbc and utv and correct their reporting, still what does your 'scoop' actually change?

    You won´t give up that issue, won´t you?

    Ah yes, your motte still is "No surrender!!!"


  • #305
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    junder wrote: »
    , I see no mention of city hall only parilment buildings, still if your think your right you should contact bbc and utv and correct their reporting, still what does your 'scoop' actually change?

    'Government Buildings' junder, is 'City Hall' a Government building?

    What does it change? It changes the veracity of the attempted spin that 'traditions' and 'heritage' are being whittled away.
    The reality is that Unionism/Loyalism are cherrypicking issues on the long road to normalisation to make a 'stand', march routes, flags, etc etc. It's like somebody futilely sticking out a leg to attempt to stop a fall off a very steep mountain. :rolleyes:


  • #306
    junder
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,706 ✭✭✭junder


    Happyman42 wrote: »

    'Government Buildings' junder, is 'City Hall' a Government building?

    What does it change? It changes the veracity of the attempted spin that 'traditions' and 'heritage' are being whittled away.
    The reality is that Unionism/Loyalism are cherrypicking issues on the long road to normalisation to make a 'stand', march routes, flags, etc etc. It's like somebody futilely sticking out a leg to attempt to stop a fall off a very steep mountain. :rolleyes:

    City hall is not a government building, stormont and stormont estates are, city hall is a civic building. And no it still changes nothing


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  • #307
    Thomas_I
    Closed Accounts Posts: 596 ✭✭✭Thomas_I


    junder wrote: »
    City hall is not a government building, stormont and stormont estates are, city hall is a civic building. And no it still changes nothing

    Either you´re missing or rejecting the point Happyman42 made in his post. I suppose that it´s rather the latter in your case. Anyway he´s right because the future of NI can only be in a shared community for all, if your lot doesn´t want that NI goes down the drain.


  • #308
    gallag
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,354 ✭✭✭gallag


    Happyman42 wrote: »

    'Government Buildings' junder, is 'City Hall' a Government building?

    What does it change? It changes the veracity of the attempted spin that 'traditions' and 'heritage' are being whittled away.
    The reality is that Unionism/Loyalism are cherrypicking issues on the long road to normalisation to make a 'stand', march routes, flags, etc etc. It's like somebody futilely sticking out a leg to attempt to stop a fall off a very steep mountain. :rolleyes:
    Would this "road to normalisation" include renaming play parks and sports facilities named after people that killed civilians by indiscriminate bombing? I bet you only want one community to "normalise" you speek with more vitriol about people protesting the erosion of their culture, preceved or factual, than you do about disidents murdering security forces.


  • #309
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    junder wrote: »
    City hall is not a government building, stormont and stormont estates are, city hall is a civic building. And no it still changes nothing

    :D:D


  • #310
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    gallag wrote: »
    Would this "road to normalisation" include renaming play parks and sports facilities named after people that killed civilians by indiscriminate bombing? I bet you only want one community to "normalise" you speek with more vitriol about people protesting the erosion of their culture, preceved or factual, than you do about disidents murdering security forces.

    I have always spoken against dissident activity.
    I have, in fact, always spoken against foot draggers, that section who show no willingness to change. What the 'flag issue' has shown is that society is far from normal and that there are those who want it to remain that way because that is what their 'cuture' demands. Their identity is stuck is a suprematist past. But it will change, of that I am sure. This is the death throes of a way of life, not a birth or rebirth.


  • #311
    junder
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,706 ✭✭✭junder


    Happyman42 wrote: »

    :D:D
    So from the top? city hall the 'civic building' has been flying the flag for all year round for about 100 years. The present stormont policy is Actully a continuation of the old unionist majorty stormont flag policy on ' 'government buildings'


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  • #312
    SoulandForm
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,096 ✭✭✭SoulandForm


    SoulandForm wrote: »
    How on earth is an non-sectarian Republican Socialist party close political friends with a sectarian Imperialist monarchist party?

    :confused:

    Junder I would like an answer to this and I will be asking people I know in the Workers Party here. The Official IRA has not disarmed and is only waiting for the correct time to launch armed struggle. That makes them far from close to political friends of militant Unionists now doesnt it?


  • #313
    junder
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,706 ✭✭✭junder


    SoulandForm wrote: »

    Junder I would like an answer to this and I will be asking people I know in the Workers Party here. The Official IRA has not disarmed and is only waiting for the correct time to launch armed struggle. That makes them far from close to political friends of militant Unionists now doesnt it?

    There has long been a respect between the two party's pup members have been attending worker party conferences and worker party members have been attending pup conferences. Even in the prisons there was a respect between the UVF and oira. The party that the workers party hates is Sinn Fein. And I to have friends who are members of the workers party.
    Although what is of interest is if you truly believe that the workers party /oira are waiting for the right time to go back to violence, why are you voting for them? Going by your posts it would all most seem as if you wish to see a return to the troubles


  • #314
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    junder wrote: »
    So from the top? city hall the 'civic building' has been flying the flag for all year round for about 100 years. The present stormont policy is Actully a continuation of the old unionist majorty stormont flag policy on ' 'government buildings'

    Well, I simply don't believe that, a quick look on Google for vintage Belfast photos will show that there is considerable doubt about it's presence on 365 days of the year.
    http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6070/6080249137_6f3fa9fba7_z.jpg
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/88051129@N00/4541484538/in/pool-461824@N21/lightbox/

    It also throws up this gem which those willing to 'fight and riot to the death' would do well to think hard about. They are being played here by others with a filthy political agenda.
    Cutural and traditional rights my ass! :rolleyes:
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/architect_traveller/965400370/in/pool-461824@N21/

    *Anybody know what that was about? ^


  • #315
    SoulandForm
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,096 ✭✭✭SoulandForm


    junder wrote: »
    There has long been a respect between the two party's pup members have been attending worker party conferences and worker party members have been attending pup conferences. Even in the prisons there was a respect between the UVF and oira. The party that the workers party hates is Sinn Fein. And I to have friends who are members of the workers party.
    Although what is of interest is if you truly believe that the workers party /oira are waiting for the right time to go back to violence, why are you voting for them? Going by your posts it would all most seem as if you wish to see a return to the troubles

    No links I see.

    Im against pointless violence, not violence per se. The Provisional campaign was wrong because the conditions did not exist for a successful armed struggle and because it degenerated into sectarianism at times- so no I dont wish to see a return to that. The OIRA have not decommissioned- that should tell you all you need to know.

    The Workers Party strongly believe that there is one Irish people that includes Ulster Protestants- something that you claimed you and your friend found highly offensive, "denying your British identity, blah, blah, blah".

    Of course they dislike Sinn Fein.


  • #316
    SoulandForm
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,096 ✭✭✭SoulandForm


    junder wrote: »
    Even in the prisons there was a respect between the UVF and oira.

    Respect between non-sectarian Republican Socialists and cold-blooded sectarian murderers? :rolleyes:


  • #317
    junder
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,706 ✭✭✭junder


    SoulandForm wrote: »

    Respect between non-sectarian Republican Socialists and cold-blooded sectarian murderers? :rolleyes:

    Clearly you have no clue what you are talking about. Perhaps you should actlly talk to somebody from the walkers party based in Belfast


  • #318
    SoulandForm
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,096 ✭✭✭SoulandForm


    junder wrote: »
    Clearly you have no clue what you are talking about. Perhaps you should actlly talk to somebody from the walkers party based in Belfast

    To be honest the further I am away from Belfast the better as far as Im concerned. However your post is crazy.

    Are you denying that the OIRA were Republican Socialists?

    Are you denying that the UVF were sectarian Unionist murderers?


  • #319
    junder
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,706 ✭✭✭junder


    Happyman42 wrote: »

    Well, I simply don't believe that, a quick look on Google for vintage Belfast photos will show that there is considerable doubt about it's presence on 365 days of the year.
    http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6070/6080249137_6f3fa9fba7_z.jpg
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/88051129@N00/4541484538/in/pool-461824@N21/lightbox/

    It also throws up this gem which those willing to 'fight and riot to the death' would do well to think hard about. They are being played here by others with a filthy political agenda.
    Cutural and traditional rights my ass! :rolleyes:
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/architect_traveller/965400370/in/pool-461824@N21/

    *Anybody know what that was about? ^

    These guys seem to disagree

    http://belfastmediagroup.com/a-century-on-tide-of-change-is-irresistible/


  • #320
    junder
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,706 ✭✭✭junder


    SoulandForm wrote: »

    To be honest the further I am away from Belfast the better as far as Im concerned. However your post is crazy.

    Are you denying that the OIRA were Republican Socialists?

    Are you denying that the UVF were sectarian Unionist murderers?

    Your post is ill informed, ervine attended many a workers party conference as did gusty spence, both have spoke at worker party conferences as invited guests. The UVF and oira worked very closey together in prisons to improve prisoner conditions,both organisations developed a healthy respect for each other that moved from the prisons into the outside world as former combatants followed their individual political paths, this is common information available in history books, try reading some


  • #321
    SoulandForm
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,096 ✭✭✭SoulandForm


    junder wrote: »
    Your post is ill informed, ervine attended many a workers party conference as did gusty spence, both have spoke at worker party conferences as invited guests. The UVF and oira worked very closey together in prisons to improve prisoner conditions,both organisations developed a healthy respect for each other that moved from the prisons into the outside world as former combatants followed their individual political paths, this is common information available in history books, try reading some

    The OIRA were combatants, the UVF were simple murderers.

    How on earth could the OIRA develop a healthy respect for people who murdered civilians just because of their religious background when part of the reason for their break with the Provisionals was about legitimate targets?

    The Workers Party is Anti-Imperialist; PUP is pro-British soldiers. Seriously, the two organizations have nothing in common.


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  • #322
    Dubhlinner
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 456 ✭✭Dubhlinner


    SoulandForm wrote: »
    The OIRA were combatants, the UVF were simple murderers.

    How on earth could the OIRA develop a healthy respect for people who murdered civilians just because of their religious background when part of the reason for their break with the Provisionals was about legitimate targets?

    The Workers Party is Anti-Imperialist; PUP is pro-British soldiers. Seriously, the two organizations have nothing in common.

    Yeah cause its that simple like.

    UVF victims were obviously selected on sectarian lines but they targeted Catholics for political reasons. If it was simple murder then why aren't they butchering a catholic every week like the early 90s?

    The UVF does not equal the PUP either, the connection between them is far less tangible than that of Sinn Fein/PIRA was.

    You're making an absolute fool of yourself here. Official Sinn Fein/workers party have been calling for socialism and working class unity over militarism since the 70s, of course they're going to have respect and seek dialogue with a party that aims to represent loyalist working class.


  • #323
    SoulandForm
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,096 ✭✭✭SoulandForm


    Dubhlinner wrote: »
    Yeah cause its that simple like.

    UVF victims were obviously selected on sectarian lines but they targeted Catholics for political reasons. If it was simple murder then why aren't they butchering a catholic every week like the early 90s?

    The UVF does not equal the PUP either, the connection between them is far less tangible than that of Sinn Fein/PIRA was.

    You're making an absolute fool of yourself here. Official Sinn Fein/workers party have been calling for socialism and working class unity over militarism since the 70s, of course they're going to have respect and seek dialogue with a party that aims to represent loyalist working class.

    You could say that the Provisionals targeted the workers at Kingsmills for political reasons also- that doesnt stop it being sectarian murder. The UVF were sectarian butchers plain and simple.

    Loyalism is militaristic, both in its worship of the British Army and in its own activities; just like their counterparts in the EDL attacked students demonstrating against students loans on the UK mainland they would be on the forefront of opposition if a serious socialist movement arose in this country. The actual unionist working class while not wanting a united Ireland dont have much time at all for the lumpen bully boys that make up the Loyalist militants. What is there to dialogue about with them?

    The left wing of the Alliance Party who actually want an end to the sectarian divide and the best for everybody are people you can talk too- the very people that Loyalists have been recently attacking.


  • #324
    Dubhlinner
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 456 ✭✭Dubhlinner


    SoulandForm wrote: »
    You could say that the Provisionals targeted the workers at Kingsmills for political reasons also- that doesnt stop it being sectarian murder. The UVF were sectarian butchers plain and simple.

    Of course they were sectarian, but in your previous post you're going on as if it wasn't for political reasons and was just out of hatred for catholics. Thankfully members of the workers party obviously grasp this concept better than you do.
    Loyalism is militaristic, both in its worship of the British Army and in its own activities; just like their counterparts in the EDL attacked students demonstrating against students loans on the UK mainland they would be on the forefront of opposition if a serious socialist movement arose in this country. The actual unionist working class while not wanting a united Ireland dont have much time at all for the lumpen bully boys that make up the Loyalist militants. What is there to dialogue about with them?

    Perhaps they think it would be for the best if people understood each other better and sectarian division came to an end.
    The left wing of the Alliance Party who actually want an end to the sectarian divide and the best for everybody are people you can talk too- the very people that Loyalists have been recently attacking.

    What the left wing of the most right wing party in Northern Ireland? They don't represent anyone in loyalism (right wing in economic terms obviously, they're very liberal on social issues)


  • #325
    SoulandForm
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,096 ✭✭✭SoulandForm


    Dubhlinner wrote: »
    UVF victims were obviously selected on sectarian lines but they targeted Catholics for political reasons. If it was simple murder then why aren't they butchering a catholic every week like the early 90s?

    The UVF does not equal the PUP either, the connection between them is far less tangible than that of Sinn Fein/PIRA was.

    They started murdering people on a sectarian basis before the IRA went back into action and they could well start murdering people on a sectarian basis again.


  • #326
    SoulandForm
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,096 ✭✭✭SoulandForm


    Dubhlinner wrote: »
    What the left wing of the most right wing party in Northern Ireland? They don't represent anyone in loyalism (right wing in economic terms obviously, they're very liberal on social issues)

    Hardly the most right wing. The Alliance Party has a mix people- its a very broad Church so to speak.


  • #327
    Dubhlinner
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 456 ✭✭Dubhlinner


    SoulandForm wrote: »
    Hardly the most right wing. The Alliance Party has a mix people- its a very broad Church so to speak.

    THey take the Lib Dem whip at Westminister. They're pro-free market and probably the only economically right wing party in Northern Ireland.


  • #328
    SoulandForm
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,096 ✭✭✭SoulandForm


    Dubhlinner wrote: »
    Perhaps they think it would be for the best if people understood each other better and sectarian division came to an end.

    We are not talking about theology here; we are talking about politics. A political divide.


  • #329
    SoulandForm
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,096 ✭✭✭SoulandForm


    Dubhlinner wrote: »
    THey take the Lib Dem whip at Westminister. They're pro-free market and probably the only economically right wing party in Northern Ireland.

    More than the TUV and UUP? :D


  • #330
    Dubhlinner
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 456 ✭✭Dubhlinner


    SoulandForm wrote: »
    More than the TUV and UUP? :D

    Most certainly in economic terms. Alliance would be far more pro free market than state services than those two


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  • #331
    SoulandForm
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,096 ✭✭✭SoulandForm


    Dubhlinner do accept that the Provos are a lot more progressive than PUP and the UVF?


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