When sensor at traffic-lights doesn't acknowledge a bicycle

kerry4sam · 17-01-2013 09:42PM #1

What are the views on here about cyclists running red traffic lights safely when the sensor doesn't pick up on the bicycle and won't turn green?

Their are at least two sets that I have found that only turn green / acknowledge traffic on road with the weight of cars and just do not turn green when a bicycle is waiting. Tis pure annoying that I could be waiting ages as traffic passes right and left in-front on the road I'd be joining and the only way to cross the road is by breaking the red light if no vehicle joins my lane :mad:

Lastnight a vehicle joined the lane to my left to turn left and within seconds received the green light to turn left, but still no light turned green for me to turn right!

Does or Has happened to anyone else anywhere?

Tigger · 17-01-2013 09:46PM

kerry4sam wrote: »

What are the views on here about cyclists running red traffic lights safely when the sensor doesn't pick up on the bicycle and won't turn green?

Their are at least two sets that I have found that only turn green / acknowledge traffic on road with the weight of cars and just do not turn green when a bicycle is waiting. Tis pure annoying that I could be waiting ages as traffic passes right and left in-front on the road I'd be joining and the only way to cross the road is by breaking the red light if no vehicle joins my lane :mad:

Lastnight a vehicle joined the lane to my left to turn left and within seconds received the green light to turn left, but still no light turned green for me to turn right!

Does or Has happened to anyone else anywhere?

Took me forever to realise that this is the case
Also on a motorbike you might stop on the sensor and then even if cars are behind you they aren't on the sensor so the lights don't change

So you have to move forward to get them to move forward to activate the sensor

In a bike I just pretend to be a pedestrian on the motorbike I slam on the front brake on the coil and that does the trick

Wishbone Ash · 17-01-2013 09:51PM

You could always cross via the pedestrian crossing!

kerry4sam wrote: »

h the weight of cars?

I think it's activated by metal mass rather than weight. I've seen motorcyclists on small bikes tilt the bike downwards to activate the coil.

ednwireland · 17-01-2013 10:02PM

its called an induction loop

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induction_loop

The relatively crude nature of the loop's structure means that only metal masses above a certain size are capable of triggering the relay. This is good in that the loop does not thus produce very many "false positive" triggers (say, for example, by a pedestrian crossing the loop with a pocket full of loose metal change) but it sometimes also means that bicycles, scooters, and motorcycles stopped at such intersections may never be detected by them (and therefore risk being ignored by the switch/ signal). Most loops can be manually adjusted to consistently detect the presence of scooters and motorcycles at the least.

Max_Charger · 17-01-2013 10:08PM

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

You could always cross via the pedestrian crossing!

I think it's activated by metal mass rather than weight. I've seen motorcyclists on small bikes tilt the bike downwards to activate the coil.

Correct, it has nothing to do with weight.

Edit: If I bothered to scroll down, I'd of realised I was beaten too it...

Wishbone Ash · 17-01-2013 10:12PM

Sometimes it's also necessary to stop your bike as far forward as possible to allow motor vehicles behind to activate the loop.

There's one near my house and I've often seen a large queue form because the first vehicle has stopped short of the junction - very frustrating when queuing in the car. When on the bike I often gesture to the first motorist that they need to move forward but often they don't understand.

kerry4sam · 17-01-2013 10:14PM

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

You could always cross via the pedestrian crossing!

I think it's activated by metal mass rather than weight. I've seen motorcyclists on small bikes tilt the bike downwards to activate the coil.

Max_Charger wrote: »

Correct, it has nothing to do with weight.

Edit: If I bothered to scroll down, I'd of realised I was beaten too it...

The only part about that I don't fully agree with is if the if you've to cross over a busy section of road to reach the pedestrian crossing to press the button (if in middle of 3-lanes). May be just as easier to stay and wait on a vehicle to join the lane, but can be annoying to wait!

Thanks though for both your input.

kerry4sam · 17-01-2013 10:15PM

ednwireland wrote: »

its called an induction loop

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induction_loop

Every day is a school-day! Never knew what it was called ednwireland. Cheers

ednwireland · 17-01-2013 10:17PM

although when i was a student in nottingham (many moons ago) the cycle paths (and most lights) had bike sensors so as long as you hit one it would change the lights, very handy

Wishbone Ash · 17-01-2013 10:21PM

kerry4sam wrote: »

The only part about that I don't fully agree with is if the if you've to cross over a busy section of road to reach the pedestrian crossing to press the button

It's usually not a problem when the junction is busy as there's always enough traffic to activate them.

If I'm out really early (e.g. 4/5am) I have to admit that I just break the red light at the junction beside me rather than waiting around or using the pedestrian crossing. It seems to default to green for the other route when not busy.

Dermot Illogical · 17-01-2013 10:22PM

Try not to roll over the middle of them. Pick a side and cycle along it.
That way you put more of the bike onto the sensor and should trigger it.

kenmc · 17-01-2013 10:38PM

Jaysus yesterday we had cyclists not acknowledging runners, now it's traffic lights vs cyclists. Where will it all end?

MediaMan · 17-01-2013 10:43PM

Dermot Illogical wrote: »

Try not to roll over the middle of them. Pick a side and cycle along it.
That way you put more of the bike onto the sensor and should trigger it.

It also depends on your bike. AFAIK, a steel frame will trigger the sensor as long as you stop on the side of the sensor as you say, but alu or carbon will not. Well not unless you are carrying a big iron bar as well.

TheBlaaMan · 17-01-2013 10:53PM

This reminds me of a story my dad would tell me from when he cycled around Dublin in the 1930s/40s.........there used to be a pressure-sensitive rubberised strip near the stop line and you would have to get off your bike and jump on the strip to get the lights to recognise that there was traffic waiting. Cars of course were heavy enough to trigger the system with one pass of a wheel. It paints a funny picture of bikes lying on their side on the road while mad fellas jump up and down beside them.....

Thats mad, Ted.

Actually, that was my Dads name......

cdaly_ · 17-01-2013 11:17PM

My alu bike triggers the sensors mostly (but not always). Only steel element is BB and pedals. Nothing else steel close enough to ground...

Beasty · 17-01-2013 11:23PM

Just wondering OP are you still stuck there ....?

I think we have covered the "technical" position before where it has been suggested that if the lights fail to change within a certain time they can be assumed to be "faulty" and you are allowed to proceed with caution provided the other roads are clear

I don't know whether that's enshrined in the legislation or more "custom and practice" though

Hungrycol · 17-01-2013 11:35PM

Interesting thread.

Drives

me mad when a car doesn't enter the middle of the junction turning right where the right turn traffic light sensors are at. Or cars overshooting the stop line and hence the sensors.

Hungrycol · 17-01-2013 11:37PM

Beasty wrote: »

Just wondering OP are you still stuck there ....?

I think we have covered the "technical" position before where it has been suggested that if the lights fail to change within a certain time they can be assumed to be "faulty" and you are allowed to proceed with caution provided the other roads are clear

I don't know whether that's enshrined in the legislation or more "custom and practice" though

Don't let this be another RLJ thread!!! "I wasn't jumping the lights officer, custom and practice led me to believe they were faulty"!

Cookie_Monster · 17-01-2013 11:40PM

move forward enough for any cars behind you to trigger it. In the absence of any traffic to do that, proceed with caution once the way is clear.

Surveyor11 · 17-01-2013 11:43PM

Stopped at the new lights near me on the diswellstown road, took about 5 changes of the lights before the penny dropped!

fletch · 17-01-2013 11:45PM

The entrance to my parents estate was changed a few years ago and they put the induction loop under a yellow box! For the first few mornings I kept having to get out of the car and tell people in front to park in the yellow box.

An email to the council and it was sorted in a few days...idiots ha

TheChizler · 18-01-2013 12:12AM

Dermot Illogical wrote: »

Try not to roll over the middle of them. Pick a side and cycle along it.
That way you put more of the bike onto the sensor and should trigger it.

Unfortunately the loop will only sense the perpendicular component of objects passing, as in movement in the same direction of the wire wont be sensed, only movement crossing the wire.

Civilian_Target · 18-01-2013 06:03AM

Treat it like a very serious stop sign...

MrCreosote · 18-01-2013 07:39AM

Just another example of the utter disregard of roading planners for cyclists. Surely can't be difficult to design a system that picks cyclists up.

ciotog · 18-01-2013 10:43AM

MrCreosote wrote: »

Just another example of the utter disregard of roading planners for cyclists. Surely can't be difficult to design a system that picks cyclists up.

It seems to be a challenge when it has to accommodate both cyclists and motorists. I recall an engineer in Galway City Council explaining it but can't remember the details, @GalwayCyclist may recall if he happens on this thread.

Surveyor11 · 18-01-2013 11:01AM

MrCreosote wrote: »

Just another example of the utter disregard of roading planners for cyclists. Surely can't be difficult to design a system that picks cyclists up.

Yeah the ironic thing was I was waiting in the advance cycling box. No opportunity to trigger it without either going back or waiting for a car to come behind me

enas · 18-01-2013 12:40PM

MrCreosote wrote: »

Just another example of the utter disregard of roading planners for cyclists. Surely can't be difficult to design a system that picks cyclists up.

In a word, yes they suck. In Cork there's plenty of them, mostly out of estates, where there's never going to be more than one car every 5 minutes.

I've seen only one traffic activated traffic light that definitely doesn't use an induction loop, and I'm pretty sure it's that one. There are little cameras on top of the traffic lights, so that's probably how it detects presence. And it works just fine with cyclists. (Also, if you click the arrow just once to move forward, you'll see that the light has already turned green, and indeed I remember it turns green pretty much instantly.)

So it's definitely possible not to ignore cyclists. I'm surprised to learn that even with motorcyclists it doesn't work, as I would have thought that more motorcyclists would have complained.

cdaly_ · 18-01-2013 12:56PM

MrCreosote wrote: »

Just another example of the utter disregard of roading planners for cyclists. Surely can't be difficult to design a system that picks cyclists up.

You need smaller sensors. They're to be found on the Grand Canal cycle track and could easily be included in the advance stop areas or in the painted grant cycle lane on the approach to the light.

enas · 18-01-2013 01:05PM

cdaly_ wrote: »

You need smaller sensors. They're to be found on the Grand Canal cycle track and could easily be included in the advance stop areas or in the painted grant cycle lane on the approach to the light.

But can they be combined with the ones that work for cars? And how can you make sure that cyclists will ride on them? And would they work reliably for any sort of bicycle?

Incidentally, another one that regularly bothers me is the right turn from Western road to Gaol walk, where the induction loop is situation in the ASL: http://goo.gl/maps/Nceg8 Essentially, as a driver you can't trigger it without illegally entering the ASL.

hardCopy · 18-01-2013 01:27PM

If they don't work for bikes they don't work, end of story, whoever specified them is just bad at their job. It's not good enough to ignore cyclists when the technology is available. There are a few junctions near me that would have you waiting 10 or 15 minutes for a car to pull up behind you.

galwaycyclist · 18-01-2013 05:12PM

ciotog wrote: »

It seems to be a challenge when it has to accommodate both cyclists and motorists. I recall an engineer in Galway City Council explaining it but can't remember the details, @GalwayCyclist may recall if he happens on this thread.

Uh no technically there is no challenge. As I understand it all that has to happen is that the guy tuning the induction loops has to remember to bring a crushed coke can with him and make sure it will trigger the loop.

There is an issue with some bikes that have less metal - but thats not a general problem.

This issue came up recently because most of the new "cycle lanes" on the reconstructed Seamus Quirke Rd (SQR) in Galway don't have any induction loops. The induction loops on the main traffic lanes also appear unresponsive - as someone else has suggested - you need to beckon following cars to come forward into the loop to get the lights to change.

There was an exchange of views about it recently at the City Council Transport Committee, and if I understand his position correctly, the senior council engineer is concerned about having induction loops that can be can be triggered by anyone passing with a coke can who feels like walking out onto the road, kneeling down, and waving the can through the loop.

Funnily enough some of the "go left to turn right boxes" on the SQR do have induction loops - but they also have pushbuttons. If I understand it correctly, the cyclist has to push a button to request a green - but if they move off in the meantime the loop detects it and cancels the green request.

The junction at Fr Griffin Rd and the Crescent now also appears to have been fitted with induction loops that do not respond to cyclists.

One of the problems with attacking cyclists who run red lights is that we have generations of traffic engineers who have been "training" generations of cyclists to ignore traffic lights.

When sensor at traffic-lights doesn't acknowledge a bicycle

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