When sensor at traffic-lights doesn't acknowledge a bicycle

kerry4sam

What are the views on here about cyclists running red traffic lights safely when the sensor doesn't pick up on the bicycle and won't turn green?

Their are at least two sets that I have found that only turn green / acknowledge traffic on road with the weight of cars and just do not turn green when a bicycle is waiting. Tis pure annoying that I could be waiting ages as traffic passes right and left in-front on the road I'd be joining and the only way to cross the road is by breaking the red light if no vehicle joins my lane :mad:

Lastnight a vehicle joined the lane to my left to turn left and within seconds received the green light to turn left, but still no light turned green for me to turn right!

Does or Has happened to anyone else anywhere?

Tigger

kerry4sam wrote: »

What are the views on here about cyclists running red traffic lights safely when the sensor doesn't pick up on the bicycle and won't turn green?

Their are at least two sets that I have found that only turn green / acknowledge traffic on road with the weight of cars and just do not turn green when a bicycle is waiting. Tis pure annoying that I could be waiting ages as traffic passes right and left in-front on the road I'd be joining and the only way to cross the road is by breaking the red light if no vehicle joins my lane :mad:

Lastnight a vehicle joined the lane to my left to turn left and within seconds received the green light to turn left, but still no light turned green for me to turn right!

Does or Has happened to anyone else anywhere?

Took me forever to realise that this is the case
Also on a motorbike you might stop on the sensor and then even if cars are behind you they aren't on the sensor so the lights don't change

So you have to move forward to get them to move forward to activate the sensor

In a bike I just pretend to be a pedestrian on the motorbike I slam on the front brake on the coil and that does the trick

Wishbone Ash

You could always cross via the pedestrian crossing!

kerry4sam wrote: »

h the weight of cars?

I think it's activated by metal mass rather than weight. I've seen motorcyclists on small bikes tilt the bike downwards to activate the coil.

ednwireland

its called an induction loop

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induction_loop

The relatively crude nature of the loop's structure means that only metal masses above a certain size are capable of triggering the relay. This is good in that the loop does not thus produce very many "false positive" triggers (say, for example, by a pedestrian crossing the loop with a pocket full of loose metal change) but it sometimes also means that bicycles, scooters, and motorcycles stopped at such intersections may never be detected by them (and therefore risk being ignored by the switch/ signal). Most loops can be manually adjusted to consistently detect the presence of scooters and motorcycles at the least.

Max_Charger

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

You could always cross via the pedestrian crossing!

I think it's activated by metal mass rather than weight. I've seen motorcyclists on small bikes tilt the bike downwards to activate the coil.

Correct, it has nothing to do with weight.

Edit: If I bothered to scroll down, I'd of realised I was beaten too it...

Wishbone Ash

Sometimes it's also necessary to stop your bike as far forward as possible to allow motor vehicles behind to activate the loop.

There's one near my house and I've often seen a large queue form because the first vehicle has stopped short of the junction - very frustrating when queuing in the car. When on the bike I often gesture to the first motorist that they need to move forward but often they don't understand.

kerry4sam

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

You could always cross via the pedestrian crossing!

I think it's activated by metal mass rather than weight. I've seen motorcyclists on small bikes tilt the bike downwards to activate the coil.

Max_Charger wrote: »

Correct, it has nothing to do with weight.

Edit: If I bothered to scroll down, I'd of realised I was beaten too it...

The only part about that I don't fully agree with is if the if you've to cross over a busy section of road to reach the pedestrian crossing to press the button (if in middle of 3-lanes). May be just as easier to stay and wait on a vehicle to join the lane, but can be annoying to wait!

Thanks though for both your input.

kerry4sam

ednwireland wrote: »

its called an induction loop

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induction_loop

Every day is a school-day! Never knew what it was called ednwireland. Cheers

ednwireland

although when i was a student in nottingham (many moons ago) the cycle paths (and most lights) had bike sensors so as long as you hit one it would change the lights, very handy

Wishbone Ash

kerry4sam wrote: »

The only part about that I don't fully agree with is if the if you've to cross over a busy section of road to reach the pedestrian crossing to press the button

It's usually not a problem when the junction is busy as there's always enough traffic to activate them.

If I'm out really early (e.g. 4/5am) I have to admit that I just break the red light at the junction beside me rather than waiting around or using the pedestrian crossing. It seems to default to green for the other route when not busy.

Dermot Illogical

Try not to roll over the middle of them. Pick a side and cycle along it.
That way you put more of the bike onto the sensor and should trigger it.

kenmc

Jaysus yesterday we had cyclists not acknowledging runners, now it's traffic lights vs cyclists. Where will it all end?

MediaMan

Dermot Illogical wrote: »

Try not to roll over the middle of them. Pick a side and cycle along it.
That way you put more of the bike onto the sensor and should trigger it.

It also depends on your bike. AFAIK, a steel frame will trigger the sensor as long as you stop on the side of the sensor as you say, but alu or carbon will not. Well not unless you are carrying a big iron bar as well.

TheBlaaMan

This reminds me of a story my dad would tell me from when he cycled around Dublin in the 1930s/40s.........there used to be a pressure-sensitive rubberised strip near the stop line and you would have to get off your bike and jump on the strip to get the lights to recognise that there was traffic waiting. Cars of course were heavy enough to trigger the system with one pass of a wheel. It paints a funny picture of bikes lying on their side on the road while mad fellas jump up and down beside them.....

Thats mad, Ted.

Actually, that was my Dads name......

cdaly_

My alu bike triggers the sensors mostly (but not always). Only steel element is BB and pedals. Nothing else steel close enough to ground...

Beasty

Just wondering OP are you still stuck there ....?

I think we have covered the "technical" position before where it has been suggested that if the lights fail to change within a certain time they can be assumed to be "faulty" and you are allowed to proceed with caution provided the other roads are clear

I don't know whether that's enshrined in the legislation or more "custom and practice" though

Hungrycol

Interesting thread.

Drives me mad when a car doesn't enter the middle of the junction turning right where the right turn traffic light sensors are at. Or cars overshooting the stop line and hence the sensors.

Hungrycol

Beasty wrote: »

Just wondering OP are you still stuck there ....?

I think we have covered the "technical" position before where it has been suggested that if the lights fail to change within a certain time they can be assumed to be "faulty" and you are allowed to proceed with caution provided the other roads are clear

I don't know whether that's enshrined in the legislation or more "custom and practice" though

Don't let this be another RLJ thread!!! "I wasn't jumping the lights officer, custom and practice led me to believe they were faulty"!

Cookie_Monster

move forward enough for any cars behind you to trigger it. In the absence of any traffic to do that, proceed with caution once the way is clear.

Surveyor11

Stopped at the new lights near me on the diswellstown road, took about 5 changes of the lights before the penny dropped!

fletch

The entrance to my parents estate was changed a few years ago and they put the induction loop under a yellow box! For the first few mornings I kept having to get out of the car and tell people in front to park in the yellow box. An email to the council and it was sorted in a few days...idiots ha

TheChizler

Dermot Illogical wrote: »

Try not to roll over the middle of them. Pick a side and cycle along it.
That way you put more of the bike onto the sensor and should trigger it.

Unfortunately the loop will only sense the perpendicular component of objects passing, as in movement in the same direction of the wire wont be sensed, only movement crossing the wire.

Civilian_Target

Treat it like a very serious stop sign...

MrCreosote

Just another example of the utter disregard of roading planners for cyclists. Surely can't be difficult to design a system that picks cyclists up.

ciotog

MrCreosote wrote: »

Just another example of the utter disregard of roading planners for cyclists. Surely can't be difficult to design a system that picks cyclists up.

It seems to be a challenge when it has to accommodate both cyclists and motorists. I recall an engineer in Galway City Council explaining it but can't remember the details, @GalwayCyclist may recall if he happens on this thread.

Surveyor11

MrCreosote wrote: »

Just another example of the utter disregard of roading planners for cyclists. Surely can't be difficult to design a system that picks cyclists up.

Yeah the ironic thing was I was waiting in the advance cycling box. No opportunity to trigger it without either going back or waiting for a car to come behind me

enas

MrCreosote wrote: »

Just another example of the utter disregard of roading planners for cyclists. Surely can't be difficult to design a system that picks cyclists up.

In a word, yes they suck. In Cork there's plenty of them, mostly out of estates, where there's never going to be more than one car every 5 minutes.

I've seen only one traffic activated traffic light that definitely doesn't use an induction loop, and I'm pretty sure it's that one. There are little cameras on top of the traffic lights, so that's probably how it detects presence. And it works just fine with cyclists. (Also, if you click the arrow just once to move forward, you'll see that the light has already turned green, and indeed I remember it turns green pretty much instantly.)

So it's definitely possible not to ignore cyclists. I'm surprised to learn that even with motorcyclists it doesn't work, as I would have thought that more motorcyclists would have complained.

cdaly_

MrCreosote wrote: »

Just another example of the utter disregard of roading planners for cyclists. Surely can't be difficult to design a system that picks cyclists up.

You need smaller sensors. They're to be found on the Grand Canal cycle track and could easily be included in the advance stop areas or in the painted grant cycle lane on the approach to the light.

enas

cdaly_ wrote: »

You need smaller sensors. They're to be found on the Grand Canal cycle track and could easily be included in the advance stop areas or in the painted grant cycle lane on the approach to the light.

But can they be combined with the ones that work for cars? And how can you make sure that cyclists will ride on them? And would they work reliably for any sort of bicycle?

Incidentally, another one that regularly bothers me is the right turn from Western road to Gaol walk, where the induction loop is situation in the ASL: http://goo.gl/maps/Nceg8 Essentially, as a driver you can't trigger it without illegally entering the ASL.

hardCopy

If they don't work for bikes they don't work, end of story, whoever specified them is just bad at their job. It's not good enough to ignore cyclists when the technology is available. There are a few junctions near me that would have you waiting 10 or 15 minutes for a car to pull up behind you.

galwaycyclist

ciotog wrote: »

It seems to be a challenge when it has to accommodate both cyclists and motorists. I recall an engineer in Galway City Council explaining it but can't remember the details, @GalwayCyclist may recall if he happens on this thread.

Uh no technically there is no challenge. As I understand it all that has to happen is that the guy tuning the induction loops has to remember to bring a crushed coke can with him and make sure it will trigger the loop.

There is an issue with some bikes that have less metal - but thats not a general problem.

This issue came up recently because most of the new "cycle lanes" on the reconstructed Seamus Quirke Rd (SQR) in Galway don't have any induction loops. The induction loops on the main traffic lanes also appear unresponsive - as someone else has suggested - you need to beckon following cars to come forward into the loop to get the lights to change.

There was an exchange of views about it recently at the City Council Transport Committee, and if I understand his position correctly, the senior council engineer is concerned about having induction loops that can be can be triggered by anyone passing with a coke can who feels like walking out onto the road, kneeling down, and waving the can through the loop.

Funnily enough some of the "go left to turn right boxes" on the SQR do have induction loops - but they also have pushbuttons. If I understand it correctly, the cyclist has to push a button to request a green - but if they move off in the meantime the loop detects it and cancels the green request.

The junction at Fr Griffin Rd and the Crescent now also appears to have been fitted with induction loops that do not respond to cyclists.

One of the problems with attacking cyclists who run red lights is that we have generations of traffic engineers who have been "training" generations of cyclists to ignore traffic lights.

enas

galwaycyclist wrote: »

There was an exchange of views about it recently at the City Council Transport Committee, and if I understand his position correctly, the senior council engineer is concerned about having induction loops that can be can be triggered by anyone passing with a coke can who feels like walking out onto the road, kneeling down, and waving the can through the loop.

That is hilarious. Or it would be if it wasn't tragic at the same time.

galwaycyclist wrote: »

One of the problems with attacking cyclists who run red lights is that we have generations of traffic engineers who have been "training" generations of cyclists to ignore traffic lights.

That is one of the main issues I can see too!

I still have another question that wasn't addressed by what you say. It's one thing that induction loops can be tuned to detect cyclists. But can they actually be designed in such a way to be bicycle friendly? I mean, for some of the induction loops I know that do detect bicycles, I still have to be careful to ride over them, and I have to be aware of their existence in the first place, which excludes the vast majority of road users I'd say.

buffalo

I've been on to DCC about bad placing for a few of these. I find the beater will trigger them easily, but the road bike is hit and miss.

Hungrycol wrote: »

Interesting thread.

Drives me mad when a car doesn't enter the middle of the junction turning right where the right turn traffic light sensors are at. Or cars overshooting the stop line and hence the sensors.

I find the opposite is the case when I'm not behind them. I laugh quietly to myself when I see someone who's too impatient to wait in the turning box not trigger a filter.

Surveyor11

buffalo wrote: »

I've been on to DCC about bad placing for a few of these. I find the beater will trigger them easily, but the road bike is hit and miss.



I find the opposite is the case when I'm not behind them. I laugh quietly to myself when I see someone who's too impatient to wait in the turning box not trigger a filter.

Packing one of these to get around the problem:

hardCopy

buffalo wrote: »

I've been on to DCC about bad placing for a few of these. I find the beater will trigger them easily, but the road bike is hit and miss.



I find the opposite is the case when I'm not behind them. I laugh quietly to myself when I see someone who's too impatient to wait in the turning box not trigger a filter.

Have DCC ever come back to you on this?

RobertFoster

galwaycyclist wrote: »

One of the problems with attacking cyclists who run red lights is that we have generations of traffic engineers who have been "training" generations of cyclists to ignore traffic lights.

You could say the same about a lot of cycling infrastructure. Elevated cycling tracks promoting cycling on paths, for example.

MB Lacey

Thanks to this thread and its info, I made the lights at the end of Cooley Rd onto Davitt Rd and the lights at the end of Strawberry beds road turn green by cycling over the obvious bits of the scarred concrete where this induction loop you speak of has been placed.
Never even noticed the road surface before, but when you look it's so obvious.
I froze one time waiting at the strawberry bed/ Lucan lights, mystified.
So - Thanks!

buffalo

hardCopy wrote: »

Have DCC ever come back to you on this?

I managed to get an acknowledgement mail:

Please be advised the issues outlined in your email have been referred to our technical staff for examination and a response will issue to you as soon as I have their reports to hand.

That was mid-October, but then I did give them a few things to think about. Might have to poke them though.

The tax man

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GAacxGiV4A

Haven't tried it myself,just heard about it a few years ago.

MediaMan

^^^ Cool! Let's all go buy ourselves some magnets and check it out.

Lumen

The tax man wrote: »

Haven't tried it myself,just heard about it a few years ago.

A motorbike doesn't have enough conductive material to trigger a traffic light?

Hmmm.

smackyB

I reported these lights to DCC last year as I couldn't get them to trigger when cycling South through this junction but the bus was always able to trigger them. These lights use a radar-type sensor mounted at the top rather than an induction loop.


After about 3 weeks they got back to me saying an engineer had adjusted them and sure enough, I was now able to trigger the lights.

So if you do find a set that aren't working for cyclists get on to DCC!

Doctor Bob

smackyB wrote: »

I reported these lights to DCC last year as I couldn't get them to trigger when cycling South through this junction but the bus was always able to trigger them. These lights use a radar-type sensor mounted at the top rather than an induction loop.

I saw that this junction had been fixed. I used to use the button on the pedestrian crossing to call the green (man) but noticed a while ago that I no longer need to. Nice work.

Maybe I'll give them a shout about the lights at the Donnybrook end of Eglinton Road, which don't trigger even when my heavy Dutch bike passes over the induction loop. It usually only happens in the wee small hours when there are no cars, but compliance with the law is a full time job!

Did you use the online reporting via the website, or did you e-mail them directly? I see they have different contact details for faulty traffic lights, road maintenance, etc.

smackyB

Doctor Bob wrote: »

I saw that this junction had been fixed. I used to use the button on the pedestrian crossing to call the green (man) but noticed a while ago that I no longer need to. Nice work.

Maybe I'll give them a shout about the lights at the Donnybrook end of Eglinton Road, which don't trigger even when my heavy Dutch bike passes over the induction loop. It usually only happens in the wee small hours when there are no cars, but compliance with the law is a full time job!

Did you use the online reporting via the website, or did you e-mail them directly? I see they have different contact details for faulty traffic lights, road maintenance, etc.

I emailed them at traffic@dublincity.ie

buffalo

buffalo wrote: »

I've been on to DCC about bad placing for a few of these. I find the beater will trigger them easily, but the road bike is hit and miss.

Email today about the junction at the wooden bridge to Bull Island (http://goo.gl/maps/wTjlw), at the north end of the Clontarf cycle track. From my experience, the lights never change except when triggered - by car or by pedestrian. And I don't think the latter givse a green to the island traffic. As it is, your legal choices are
a) hit the pedestrian lights and cross as a pedestrian
b) join the traffic coming from Bull Island, and wait for a car to trigger the lights
c) cycle a short distance onto the bridge, where the sensor is, and hope your bike triggers it. (This usually means doing a U-turn on the bridge.)

This junction/cycle crossing in question is due to be dealt with in the upcoming Part 8 for S2S Interim works. This proposal will effictively link up the section of off road cycle track which stops at the wooden Bridge to the Causeway Road. A new toucan crossing is proposed at the Wooden Bridge junction. A preliminary Design has been done for the proposal and was presented to the Area Committee. It is hoped to proceed to Part 8 with a view to construction in the Spring 2013.

I'm not sure which is the Causeway Road though. I've emailed her for more details.

souter

I meet a couple of these every day. If the road is clear, and no sign of any car coming up into my filter line, no compunction about schluffing over the pedestrian crossing.

There's another one though I need to trigger to get out of a car park. THe trick with my alu bike is to look for the induction loop ( a big diamnond cut and filled in the concrete ortarmac, then lay the bike down directly on it - will trigger this particular sensor whilst upright will not.

buffalo

buffalo wrote: »

I've emailed her for more details.

I've got more details about another junction, which is encouraging. Fair play DCC!

Doctor Bob

buffalo wrote: »

I'm not sure which is the Causeway Road though. I've emailed her for more details.

The 'S2S Interim' is a proposal to fill in the missing link on the Clontarf seafront, i.e. the stretch between the Wooden Bridge (southern end) and the Causeway (northern end) which currently lacks off-road cycle facilities. It's a lower cost option than the €17 million cantilevered, cable-stayed walkway that was being considered before the, um, good times stopped rolling.



Is the Causeway the other junction DCC mentioned?

Dermot Illogical

buffalo wrote: »

c) cycle a short distance onto the bridge, where the sensor is, and hope your bike triggers it. (This usually means doing a U-turn on the bridge.)

This is what I do. Have a quick look to make sure nothing else is about to turn onto the wooden bridge, then do a little loop over the sensors. It does work, but is quicker to trigger when main road traffic is lighter.

Dermot Illogical

buffalo wrote: »

I'm not sure which is the Causeway Road though. I've emailed her for more details.

It's the one opposite the road coming from Raheny (Watermill Rd?). The one where folks go for a bit of jiggy jiggy.

buffalo

Nifty, thanks for that Doctor Bob - how do you find out about these things? I've often wondered if it would be feasible to build a continuation, especially considering how many cyclists I see on the footpath there. As much as I dislike footpath cycling, I understand why some people do it, and would agree with putting in off-road tracks where it's common, and likewise contra-flow lanes where salmon cycling occurs. Seems like this is one of those cases.

Other junction was an unrelated matter on the NCR.