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After-Life?

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24

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    #32
    cypressg
    Closed Accounts Posts: 208 ✭✭cypressg


    Maysa07 wrote: »
    If you ask me: Is there a next life after death? Can you show it to me?
    I will ask you: Is there tomorrow? If yes, can you show it to me?

    Simple & ordinary fact to settle an unending doubt.
    My head hurts trying to make sense of that logic.
    If you want to know is there an afterlife or not it's easy,just think of the guys that believe there is 40 virgins or something waiting for them "up there",think of how silly that belief is yet how easily they believe it-people believe the most stupid ridiculous things when they want to and it is human nature to want to believe in an afterlife.


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    #33
    lukesmom
    Registered Users Posts: 4,400 ✭✭✭lukesmom


    Maysa07 wrote: »
    If you ask me: Is there a next life after death? Can you show it to me?
    I will ask you: Is there tomorrow? If yes, can you show it to me?

    Simple & ordinary fact to settle an unending doubt.

    This makes perfect sense to me. We cannot show somebody tomorrow even though we know it is there. In the same way we cannot prove an afterlife even though we know in our hearts there is one.


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    #34
    cypressg
    Closed Accounts Posts: 208 ✭✭cypressg


    lukesmom wrote: »
    This makes perfect sense to me. We cannot show somebody tomorrow even though we know it is there. In the same way we cannot prove an afterlife even though we know in our hearts there is one.
    No it doesn't,historically there has always been a tomorrow,100% of the time,while not visible from the today it is always visible when it materializes the next day.
    This is not true for an "afterlife",it just makes sense to you cause you want to believe in an afterlife as it's human nature.


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    #35
    Canis Lupus
    Registered Users Posts: 9,893 ✭✭✭Canis Lupus


    Maysa07 wrote: »
    If you ask me: Is there a next life after death? Can you show it to me?
    I will ask you: Is there tomorrow? If yes, can you show it to me?

    Simple & ordinary fact to settle an unending doubt.

    If you ask me: Is there an elephant sized talking raspberry trifle that lives on the moon (which is also invisible)? Can you show it to me?
    I will ask you: Is there tomorrow? If yes, can you show it to me?

    Simple & ordinary fact to settle an unending doubt.


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    #36
    Nolars
    Registered Users Posts: 2,892 ✭✭✭Nolars


    Says it all tbh

    I would love to believe that when I die I will live again, that some thinking, feeling, remembering part of me will continue. But much as I want to believe that, and despite the ancient and worldwide cultural traditions that assert an afterlife, I know of nothing to suggest that it is more than wishful thinking. The world is so exquisite with so much love and moral depth, that there is no reason to deceive ourselves with pretty stories for which there's little good evidence. Far better it seems to me, in our vulnerability, is to look death in the eye and to be grateful every day for the brief but magnificent opportunity that life provides. [Carl Sagan, 1996 in his article In the Valley of the Shadow Parade Magazine Also, Billions and Billions p. 215]


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    #37
    lukesmom
    Registered Users Posts: 4,400 ✭✭✭lukesmom


    cypressg wrote: »
    No it doesn't,historically there has always been a tomorrow,100% of the time,while not visible from the today it is always visible when it materializes the next day.
    This is not true for an "afterlife",it just makes sense to you cause you want to believe in an afterlife as it's human nature.


    I get what your saying here, there is no concrete evidence to show there is an afterlife. And yes it is wishful thinking of course. I do believe there is something else after death and this is not based on scientific fact obviously. But science teaches us that we cannot disprove something that hasn't been proven true or false. Also teaches us that energy cannot be created or destroyed it simply changes form and based on that theory I believe we change form. The body is no longer useful and the soul and spirit leave the body and travel to another plain where other souls reside.


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    #38
    fatmammycat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,208 ✭✭✭fatmammycat


    lukesmom wrote: »
    I get what your saying here, there is no concrete evidence to show there is an afterlife. And yes it is wishful thinking of course. I do believe there is something else after death and this is not based on scientific fact obviously. But science teaches us that we cannot disprove something that hasn't been proven true or false. Also teaches us that energy cannot be created or destroyed it simply changes form and based on that theory I believe we change form. The body is no longer useful and the soul and spirit leave the body and travel to another plain where other souls reside.

    What soul? What spirit? Our consciousness stems from our brains, when that dies so does our self-identy, our thoughts, memories. There is no evidence for a spirtual afterlife; with the best will in the world, wishful thinking is hardly grounds to invent one.


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    #39
    Canis Lupus
    Registered Users Posts: 9,893 ✭✭✭Canis Lupus


    lukesmom wrote: »
    I get what your saying here, there is no concrete evidence to show there is an afterlife. And yes it is wishful thinking of course. I do believe there is something else after death and this is not based on scientific fact obviously. But science teaches us that we cannot disprove something that hasn't been proven true or false. Also teaches us that energy cannot be created or destroyed it simply changes form and based on that theory I believe we change form. The body is no longer useful and the soul and spirit leave the body and travel to another plain where other souls reside.

    If that's what you believe what do you think happens in this new plain? Do all the souls just mill about for eternity? Are we aware that we're just disembodied souls that do nothing for eternity but exist? It's all very well thinking there's an afterlife but you have to give it some context. Frankly, it sounds appalling being a 'soul' for eternity.


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    #40
    lukesmom
    Registered Users Posts: 4,400 ✭✭✭lukesmom


    fatmammycat wrote: »

    What soul? What spirit? Our consciousness stems from our brains, when that dies so does our self-identy, our thoughts, memories. There is no evidence for a spirtual afterlife; with the best will in the world, wishful thinking is hardly grounds to invent one.


    There is no evidence that there is no spiritual after-life either! I respect your beliefs but it's not just wishful thinking after a loss for me. I have always believed the soul lives on.


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    #41
    lukesmom
    Registered Users Posts: 4,400 ✭✭✭lukesmom


    Canis Lupus wrote: »

    If that's what you believe what do you think happens in this new plain? Do all the souls just mill about for eternity? Are we aware that we're just disembodied souls that do nothing for eternity but exist? It's all very well thinking there's an afterlife but you have to give it some context. Frankly, it sounds appalling being a 'soul' for eternity.

    That's the million dollar question you asked. I see what you mean by saying it would be appalling for the soul to live on for eternity. But you can only base that on your own life experience. The soul could enter several new lifes with totally new experiences. Just like the universe can not be comprehended it is that vast, we cannot dismiss the possibility of an after-life.


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    #42
    Canis Lupus
    Registered Users Posts: 9,893 ✭✭✭Canis Lupus


    lukesmom wrote: »
    That's the million dollar question you asked. I see what you mean by saying it would be appalling for the soul to live on for eternity. But you can only base that on your own life experience. The soul could enter several new lifes with totally new experiences. Just like the universe can not be comprehended it is that vast, we cannot dismiss the possibility of an after-life.

    What it comes down to is the ever useful Hitchens quote. "That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence."

    Can I dismiss the possibility of an afterlife, of course not but without any evidence (at all) to show it exists means I'm probably safe to say it's highly highly highly unlikely. I'm not trying to be offensive but your idea of an afterlife is wishy washy.


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    #43
    lukesmom
    Registered Users Posts: 4,400 ✭✭✭lukesmom


    Canis Lupus wrote: »

    What it comes down to is the ever useful Hitchens quote. "That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence."

    Can I dismiss the possibility of an afterlife, of course not but without any evidence (at all) to show it exists means I'm probably safe to say it's highly highly highly unlikely. I'm not trying to be offensive but your idea of an afterlife is wishy washy.

    Hey that's fair enough I appreciate your contribution to the thread anyway.


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    #44
    fatmammycat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,208 ✭✭✭fatmammycat


    lukesmom wrote: »
    There is no evidence that there is no spiritual after-life either! I respect your beliefs but it's not just wishful thinking after a loss for me. I have always believed the soul lives on.

    With respect, that makes no sense. You have no evidence that a 'soul' exists, never mind 'lives on'. Evidence is just that, evidence. You can verify it, repeat it, show it to be true. Saying there is no evidence for something that cannot be proven to exist is trying to prove a negative, and we cannot prove a negative.
    As canis lupus alludes: certainly I cannot dismiss the notion of an afterlife, but neither can I give it any credence, nor should you based on what can only be-thus far- wishful thinking and confirmation bias.


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    #45
    lukesmom
    Registered Users Posts: 4,400 ✭✭✭lukesmom


    fatmammycat wrote: »

    With respect, that makes no sense. You have no evidence that a 'soul' exists, never mind 'lives on'. Evidence is just that, evidence. You can verify it, repeat it, show it to be true. Saying there is no evidence for something that cannot be proven to exist is trying to prove a negative, and we cannot prove a negative.
    As canis lupus alludes: certainly I cannot dismiss the notion of an afterlife, but neither can I give it any credence, nor should you based on what can only be-thus far- wishful thinking and confirmation bias.


    So answer me this do you regard yourself as a spiritual person?


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    #46
    fatmammycat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,208 ✭✭✭fatmammycat


    No, I don't. I don't even really know what that is supposed to truly mean. Anyone I know who regards themselves as 'spiritual' usually has a hodgepodge of ideas on what it is supposed to mean, and it seems to vary wildly from person to person. Perhaps if you could clarify what you feel 'spiritual' to mean I could best address your question.


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    #47
    cypressg
    Closed Accounts Posts: 208 ✭✭cypressg


    Not trying to hurt anyone's feelings here but I always find that people who regard themselves as spiritual are usually not very well read or informed about the world in general and tend to believe in things like ghosts and fortune tellers etc in an effort to explain things that they don't understand or beliefs that have been passed on to them as a child that they've never bothered questioning.


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    #48
    lukesmom
    Registered Users Posts: 4,400 ✭✭✭lukesmom


    fatmammycat wrote: »
    No, I don't. I don't even really know what that is supposed to truly mean. Anyone I know who regards themselves as 'spiritual' usually has a hodgepodge of ideas on what it is supposed to mean, and it seems to vary wildly from person to person. Perhaps if you could clarify what you feel 'spiritual' to mean I could best address your question.

    I don't know about others but for me, I guess I have always felt instinctively that there is a spiritual plain, something we cannot hear or see but can often feel.

    You must have some interest though in spirituality or you wouldn't be responding to a thread in the spirituality forum.
    I respect all people's beliefs or non beliefs.


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    #49
    maguffin
    Registered Users Posts: 282 ✭✭maguffin


    cypressg wrote: »
    Not trying to hurt anyone's feelings here but I always find that people who regard themselves as spiritual are usually not very well read or informed about the world in general and tend to believe in things like ghosts and fortune tellers etc in an effort to explain things that they don't understand or beliefs that have been passed on to them as a child that they've never bothered questioning.

    The problem is, that once you have typed that comment above and submitted it, you have hurt some peoples feelings.....prefacing it by saying you're not trying to do this is pointless.

    whilst you haven't hurt my feelings directly, I do thing it is unbecoming of you to say what you did....I have a sense of Spirituality in my life, however, I am quite well read (philosophy, Science, Literature and many more), I have a background of Chemistry and Analytical science as well as an Honours degree in computer science.....but according to you, because I am Spiritual...I am not well read and badly informed!!!

    Go take a look at your own life...have you inherited a belief system, given to you as a child, one you have not fully questioned??....ie, are you of one of the christian faiths...RC, CofI, CofE, ?? are these not systems that involve 'christian spirituality'???

    Live and let live... and do not judge others without full facts!!


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    #50
    cypressg
    Closed Accounts Posts: 208 ✭✭cypressg


    maguffin wrote: »
    The problem is, that once you have typed that comment above and submitted it, you have hurt some peoples feelings.....prefacing it by saying you're not trying to do this is pointless.

    whilst you haven't hurt my feelings directly, I do thing it is unbecoming of you to say what you did....I have a sense of Spirituality in my life, however, I am quite well read (philosophy, Science, Literature and many more), I have a background of Chemistry and Analytical science as well as an Honours degree in computer science.....but according to you, because I am Spiritual...I am not well read and badly informed!!!

    Go take a look at your own life...have you inherited a belief system, given to you as a child, one you have not fully questioned??....ie, are you of one of the christian faiths...RC, CofI, CofE, ?? are these not systems that involve 'christian spirituality'???

    Live and let live... and do not judge others without full facts!!
    You're right with first part,I suppose I was trying to mitigate the hurt it would cause and didn't want to seem like a totally heartless bastard,but yeah I also hate it when people try and prefix something hurtful with "I don't mean to hurt but ..." and am a bit embarrassed now that I did it actually.

    Now,on to the next part,you say that you are quite well read and as I don't know you I certainly can't contradict that but it is certainly at odds with my experience-I mean isn't it a known fact that the smarter the person the less they believe in spirituality etc?I may be wrong here so feel free to contradict me.I mean I know plenty of well read people who are still clueless as to how the world works and what is real and what is not,I suppose it depends on the actual content of what a person is reading rather than the amount?

    And lastly,yep I certainly did inherit a belief system,RC as did most of the country but I discarded it with disgust when I realised how foolish the whole thing was and how foolish 100% of it's true adherents were.

    And finally I used to believe in the whole live and let live ethos but not anymore,it's just too hard to get anything done and to build a decent world where we can all live happily and in harmony when you have one group of people who's god/belief system says you can't have divorce/contraception/homosexuality/stem cell research and then you have another group of ejjits saying that an adultress woman has to be stoned and then you have another group of dopes who believe that women are second class citizens only there for their pleasure and then you have another group of thicks blowing themselves and others up so that they can get to heaven where there are 40 virgins waiting for them.Where ever the belief systems intersect there just seems to be carnage and where they don't intersect there also seems to be carnage.Kill them all I say and lets move forward with facts and science and not the superstitious teachings of old men from thousands of years ago for gods sake.
    End of rant.


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    #51
    maguffin
    Registered Users Posts: 282 ✭✭maguffin


    cypressg wrote: »
    You're right with first part,I suppose I was trying to mitigate the hurt it would cause and didn't want to seem like a totally heartless bastard,but yeah I also hate it when people try and prefix something hurtful with "I don't mean to hurt but ..." and am a bit embarrassed now that I did it actually.

    Good!
    Now,on to the next part,you say that you are quite well read and as I don't know you I certainly can't contradict that but it is certainly at odds with my experience-I mean isn't it a known fact that the smarter the person the less they believe in spirituality etc?I may be wrong here so feel free to contradict me.

    What you believe..is what you believe. It is of no consequence to me if you believe me or not, but I think you do a great dis-service to many intelligent people who are also very spiritual....to quote the late Carl Sagan, a very emminent and intelligent scientist:

    "Science is not only compatible with spirituality; it is a profound source of spirituality. When we recognize our place in an immensity of light-years and in the passage of ages, when we grasp the intricacy, beauty, and subtlety of life, then that soaring feeling, that sense of elation and humility combined, is surely spiritual...The notion that science and spirituality are somehow mutually exclusive does a disservice to both."

    ...Kill them all I say and lets move forward with facts and science and not the superstitious teachings of old men from thousands of years ago for gods sake.
    End of rant.

    That sentiment is very like what some Fundamental Extremists are saying in the world today....and I notice you sign off with a 'for god's sake' despite what you've said previously...!!


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    #52
    fatmammycat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,208 ✭✭✭fatmammycat


    lukesmom wrote: »
    I don't know about others but for me, I guess I have always felt instinctively that there is a spiritual plain, something we cannot hear or see but can often feel.

    You must have some interest though in spirituality or you wouldn't be responding to a thread in the spirituality forum.
    I respect all people's beliefs or non beliefs.

    I don't really, I'm just curious by nature and wonder why people readily believe something for which there is no evidence. I don't understand this constant need to add supernatural elements to life. Isn't life enough? With all its wonders and passions and happenings? (I also don't have a blanket respect for all beliefs, and I suspect most people don't either; indeed why would any one respect 'all' beliefs).


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    #53
    lukesmom
    Registered Users Posts: 4,400 ✭✭✭lukesmom


    fatmammycat wrote: »

    I don't really, I'm just curious by nature and wonder why people readily believe something for which there is no evidence. I don't understand this constant need to add supernatural elements to life. Isn't life enough? With all its wonders and passions and happenings? (I also don't have a blanket respect for all beliefs, and I suspect most people don't either; indeed why would any one respect 'all' beliefs).


    Let me rephrase it then, I respect tge fact that people have different beliefs to mine


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    #54
    fatmammycat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,208 ✭✭✭fatmammycat


    lukesmom wrote: »
    Let me rephrase it then, I respect tge fact that people have different beliefs to mine

    That, I can fully agree with.


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    #55
    cypressg
    Closed Accounts Posts: 208 ✭✭cypressg


    lukesmom wrote: »
    Let me rephrase it then, I respect tge fact that people have different beliefs to mine
    i don't, not at all.Some people believe that if they blow themselves and lots of "infidels" up that they will get to heaven where there are 40 virgins waiting for them,do you respect this belief?I can give you tonnes of examples-in India when the girl was raped recently,the police commisioner came out and said that it was her own fault for being on a bus late at night and that she was probably wearing make-up and had probably been at a niteclub before-do you respect this belief,that she was somehow deserving of what happened to her?
    I would go so far as to say I abhor any "belief" as it is inherently just that,an unprovable way of thinking handed down through the generations by uneducated people,an inherited superstition generally concocted by fools with too much power.


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    #56
    lukesmom
    Registered Users Posts: 4,400 ✭✭✭lukesmom


    cypressg wrote: »
    i don't, not at all.Some people believe that if they blow themselves and lots of "infidels" up that they will get to heaven where there are 40 virgins waiting for them,do you respect this belief?I can give you tonnes of examples-in India when the girl was raped recently,the police commisioner came out and said that it was her own fault for being on a bus late at night and that she was probably wearing make-up and had probably been at a niteclub before-do you respect this belief,that she was somehow deserving of what happened to her?
    I would go so far as to say I abhor any "belief" as it is inherently just that,an unprovable way of thinking handed down through the generations by uneducated people,an inherited superstition generally concocted by fools with too much power.


    Jesus do I have to say it again???? I RESPECT that people have different beliefs it doesn't mean I agree with any of them.


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    #57
    cypressg
    Closed Accounts Posts: 208 ✭✭cypressg


    lukesmom wrote: »
    Jesus do I have to say it again???? I RESPECT that people have different beliefs it doesn't mean I agree with any of them.
    What does that mean -"I respect that people have different beliefs"?


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    #58
    cartell_best
    Closed Accounts Posts: 579 ✭✭✭cartell_best


    cypressg wrote: »
    What does that mean -"I respect that people have different beliefs"?

    Everyone believes in something different yet hope for whatever the ultimate of life may be, but yet that very essence of what is final, is in fact, universal.


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    #59
    fatmammycat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,208 ✭✭✭fatmammycat


    cartell_best wrote: »
    Everyone believes in something different yet hope for whatever the ultimate of life may be, but yet that very essence of what is final, is in fact, universal.

    What on earth does this sentence mean? Define 'essence' in this form.


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    #60
    lukesmom
    Registered Users Posts: 4,400 ✭✭✭lukesmom


    cypressg wrote: »
    What does that mean -"I respect that people have different beliefs"?

    Are you serious? You cannot understand the above sentence?


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    #61
    lukesmom
    Registered Users Posts: 4,400 ✭✭✭lukesmom


    fatmammycat wrote: »

    What on earth does this sentence mean? Define 'essence' in this form.


    Everyone believes in something different yet hope for whatever the ultimate of life may be, but yet that very essence of what is final, is in fact, universal.

    In other words all human beings have their own different beliefs but are the same when it comes to hope as we all have it. He uses the word 'essence' (characters/components that make up something) to describe how humans and our thoughts and beliefs are the very essence of the finality of this subject that is the after-life and death. Quite an intelligent and philosophical way of explaining it I would have thought.


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