HMV closing (again)

johnny_ultimate · 15-01-2013 01:10PM

A lot of hysteria about vouchers and the like - a temporary freeze is pretty par for the course when it comes to administration. It's hard to call what way its going to go - I know I'd be very surprised with instantaneous closure or liquidation - but I'd wait a few days or weeks to see how the situation plays out before going in and robbing stuff from the shelves as remuneration. Actually, I wouldn't advise doing that at all even if the ultimate HMV firesale is announced. I'd say they'll try and make the business more efficient first and foremost - like Game, HMV in the UK particularly would be guilty of having multiple stores in the same high streets / shopping centres just to keep their high-profile presence. I can see them lasting a few more years if they close some of the more redundant or less profitable stores.

Barring the occasional impulse buy, I'd have to concede its been a while since HMV were my main source of DVD purchases - largely because its world and independent sections tend to a) cater to a very specific type of 'niche' and b) to be overpriced compared to their mass-purchased & dirt cheap titles (plus a familiar selection of popular world titles). That's inevitable, really - Amazon's catalogue is much vaster for titles that wouldn't be profitable in the limited retail space of HMV in the same way 3.99 copies of Step Brothers would be. Still, they remain competitive for new releases, and 5 for 35 Blu-Ray deals and the like offered something even online retailers don't. A company can't live off impulse buys, though.

More than anything, its a shame for gamers, as HMV are by far the most attractively priced retailer in that area. Smyths are decent too, but having already overpriced Gamestop as the only major games retailer left on major shopping streets is a tad worrying.

Sad Professor · 15-01-2013 01:34PM

In the case of the company being liquidated, I'd imagine stock will be going back to suppliers. It's very unlikely HMV own most of it under current agreements. So no closing down sale.

DjFlin · 15-01-2013 01:46PM

InchicoreDude wrote: »

Piracy is so easily obtained now by the average person, that it is going to eventually affect the quality of shows being produced. I am 29 and buy most products. But I see the interns in my workplace at the moment who are around 20-21. And they never buy these things. Downloading all the way for them. Quite simply, if you dont pay for it, how can you pay the actors / writers etc.? They dont come up with money out of thin air for these things. The internet is a great thing, but the piracy on it is the worst part of it. It should be clamped down on more to ensure the survival of places like HMV.

Yes piracy is an issue, but not the only one. Or even the biggest one.

The business model is changing, and its getting harder for brick & mortar stores to keep up.

I used to love going to HMV to get the bargin 3.99 DVD's, but now Netflix has most of those movies for €7 a month on demand. Its hard to stick with HMV for that.

Then we get to the pricier products. Last time I was in HMV i was looking at the Lord Of The Rings blu ray box set. It was €45, Amazon had it for 12 Pounds (So about €16). Its hard not to go with Amazon.

On top of that, I've alway kind of disliked HMV because of how they tend to sell used games at almost the same price as new. But thats not just HMV, GameStop (and Game when they were still around) are just as guilty of that.

wampyrus77 · 15-01-2013 01:49PM

its sad to HMV to see them go, Its was my favourite music and games retailer, its was cheaper for games then gamestop,
the music was cheaper there then tower records and Golden Discs

15-01-2013 01:52PM

Now where am I going to go to figure out what movies to download next?

wampyrus77 · 15-01-2013 01:52PM

the best place to buy Wii u console

FloatingVoter · 15-01-2013 01:57PM

It was an out of date business model that failed to compete with the times. Easons is full of people buying books despite those being readily downloadable. HMV had overheads that Amazon and iTunes simply don't need to worry about.
Having the physical copy of the music made no sense once vinyl went to the grave - the cover art used to be good. Overcharging lost them customer loyalty. I'm sorry for the staff involved in this mess. As somebody on this or another thread said hold onto those vouchers as they may be worth something if a new owner is found. They will want to attract you all back.

InchicoreDude · 15-01-2013 02:10PM

It was an out of date business model that failed to compete with the times. Easons is full of people buying books despite those being readily downloadable. HMV had overheads that Amazon and iTunes simply don't need to worry about.

I agree about Amazon & iTunes. But the comparison with Easons is somewhat unfair. The music / film industry indutry is completely different to the books industry. Watching / listening to a film / song online is pretty much the same as buying it for real. Reading a book on an e-reader is essentially a different experience to reading a paper book.

DirkVoodoo · 15-01-2013 02:12PM

Guy above hit the nail on the head.

Piracy is not to blame, the changing marketplace is.

If you're going to blame piracy, you might as well blame Netflix, Amazon, iTunes, Steam, etc.

HMV, Game, etc. were always going to go to the wall unless they came up with something innovative. It's sad that people will lose their jobs and a well known brand might very well disappear if a buyer can't be found.

Digital media has replaced the need for physical stores, by and large. Of course people will jump at me and say "I still buy CDs and DVDs!", but they are a shrinking minority. Most people either buy their physical media online and shop around for the best deals, or want an entirely digital collection that won't be outdated when the next technological leap comes around (I have a case full of VHS that we no longer have the means or want to play).

Look back over history and see how technology has replaced jobs, created new ones. It's only more apparent now because rather than a factory out in the middle of nowhere closing down, it will be a noticeable brand on the highstreet.

FloatingVoter · 15-01-2013 02:14PM

InchicoreDude wrote: »

I agree about Amazon & iTunes. But the comparison with Easons is somewhat unfair. The music / film industry indutry is completely different to the books industry. Watching / listening to a film / song online is pretty much the same as buying it for real. Reading a book on an e-reader is essentially a different experience to reading a paper book.

Agreed. Holding the physical copy of the book is the same as getting a vinyl copy, appreciating the cover art, reading the liner notes and putting it on your shelf. When that went - the game was up.

Oh, and listening to it.

Shinaynay · 15-01-2013 02:23PM

HMV are a DISGRACE for not taking vouchers. Christmas was less than a month ago they would have known about this & shouldnt have taken peoples money. Theyve been supported by us Irish people for years even in tough times & would have been closed years ago if they hadnt. . I dont have vouchers or anything but it really is shocking

johnny_ultimate · 15-01-2013 02:31PM

Shinaynay wrote: »

HMV are a DISGRACE for not taking vouchers. Christmas was less than a month ago they would have known about this & shouldnt have taken peoples money. Theyve been supported by us Irish people for years even in tough times & would have been closed years ago if they hadnt. . I dont have vouchers or anything but it really is shocking

Its keeping with insolvency and administration law, no-one's rights are being denied (plus it may well be a temporary call). It's happened with countless major stores in the past, and will happen again, although HMV is obviously a more popular choice for gift vouchers than most. It would actually be very damaging to HMV to say "we're no longer selling vouchers" before administration was announced - administration is a last-ditch call of desperation, and while the warning signs have been there for years, it was still hoped HMV could overcome their financial problems through less drastic measures and keep trading as normal. They had hoped, for example, that they'd be bailed out by the film studios, music labels and game companies.

Further evidence, though, that gift vouchers for specific stores are increasingly an uncertain call.

Loughc · 15-01-2013 02:32PM

Shinaynay wrote: »

HMV are a DISGRACE for not taking vouchers. Christmas was less than a month ago they would have known about this & shouldnt have taken peoples money. Theyve been supported by us Irish people for years even in tough times & would have been closed years ago if they hadnt. . I dont have vouchers or anything but it really is shocking

I'm not defending HMV in the slightest I think it's disgusting that they're not accepting vouchers.

I can only think they thought they might have been able to steady the ship with the Christmas trade, and that's why they kept selling the vouchers and perhaps Christmas takings were less than what they had budgeted and they had no alternative but to go into administration.

Myrddin · 15-01-2013 02:35PM

melekalikimaka wrote: »

not if you read the t&c on the vouchers sadly, perfectly legal

The t&c on the vouchers say that the voucher scheme can be stopped at any time provided HMV give adequate notice in the form of messages in store & on their website. I didn't see either of them...

Sad Professor · 15-01-2013 02:38PM

InchicoreDude wrote: »

I agree about Amazon & iTunes. But the comparison with Easons is somewhat unfair. The music / film industry indutry is completely different to the books industry. Watching / listening to a film / song online is pretty much the same as buying it for real. Reading a book on an e-reader is essentially a different experience to reading a paper book.

Not really. Words are just words, whether they are on a Kindle or a piece of paper. You might have an attachment to the paper and holding the book in your hand, but the actual experience of the story being told in the book is the same. However, at the moment, digital downloads of films don't come close to the quality of Blu-ray. Cinema is a visual medium so quality matters a lot.

Kinski · 15-01-2013 02:39PM

InchicoreDude wrote: »

Watching / listening to a film / song online is pretty much the same as buying it for real. Reading a book on an e-reader is essentially a different experience to reading a paper book.

Not really, unless the book contains pictures, diagrams or similar. The words are the same in an ebook as a physical copy, but the downloadable equivalent of CDs and Blu-Rays are often inferior thanks to the popularity of outdated formats like MP3.

There are some small trade-offs in terms of character-sharpness, but advances in technology are rapidly closing the gap on the printed word.

Technocentral · 15-01-2013 02:41PM

The best way to think of it (like any business or service) is why would I go there? If you were looking for a CD, vinyl, book, game, or gadget all could be got much cheaper on the net or if you wanted it the same day in other shops in town. I only buy vinyl records, I haven't bought a CD in years (apart from presents for other people or given to me). About 6 months a go I heard that they were selling vinyl again, they had a tiny selection and the prices were shocking (39 euros for an album that was 27 or so in Tower), obviously vinyl wasn't going to save them but what was the point in reintroducing it with that approach? Bad management had to be part of its demise, Tower is still going strong and I hope it always will, great selection of vinyl, magazines, dvds, gadget accessories, a cafe etc, in really tough times for bricks and mortar stores at least they are trying. I feel sorry for the HMV staff though of course.

Fysh · 15-01-2013 02:43PM

Shinaynay wrote: »

HMV are a DISGRACE for not taking vouchers. Christmas was less than a month ago they would have known about this & shouldnt have taken peoples money. Theyve been supported by us Irish people for years even in tough times & would have been closed years ago if they hadnt. . I dont have vouchers or anything but it really is shocking

Are you seriously trying to suggest that, at a point when the viability of the business is in serious doubt, the foremost concern is making sure that people who've got vouchers lying around that they haven't used in the 3 weeks since Christmas can do so?

I suggest you readjust your perspective - it's probable they will honour existing vouchers if things go well over the next few days, but they have real debts to pay in the meantime and thus the often-ignored-but-nonetheless-binding terms of the voucher get enforced.

I suspect a smart move would be to keep the online presence - they may have been slow to get up and running but they've got a presence currently (uncompetitively priced though it is, in general) so I don't see any reason they couldn't do a Zavvi and transition to a web-only model, at least for now.

The smart move IMO would be to partner up with another company or set of companies who have a physical presence in suitable locations (ideally providers of a service rather than product, since that means they're less immediately vulnerable to the same pressures that have hammered HMV), and offer a combination of limited in-store sales and collection points. The way to drive it would be to provide guaranteed faster delivery to collection points than to home addresses.

johnny_ultimate · 15-01-2013 02:45PM

For smaller distributors, physical distribution remains the primary revenue source. They can have a presence on digital sites, but their money is by and large made through DVD and Blu-Ray sales.

As long as the likes of Criterion and Masters of Cinema exist, I think its foolish to suggest physical media simply doesn't matter - maybe not for you, but the DVD and Blu-Ray markets still have a hell of a lot to offer. Their extremely high-quality transfers, lavish booklets and supplementary materials have earned them a rightfully sustainable niche with enthusiast consumers who cannot get the same things online. While many viewers don't care about such things - just have to look at how many would be willing to watch a cam-version - I and I'm sure many, many others would be lost if they didn't keep doing such high quality work. They currently complement digital distribution.

Not that HMV sell such titles, but y'know

Sleepy · 15-01-2013 02:54PM

This has been inevitable for almost a decade really. Hell, Richard Branson spotted the limited lifespan of such stores back when he sold the Virgin Megastores.

The only times I went into HMV over the past few years was when looking for gifts at Christmas or when I was on Grafton Street and had some time to kill.

403 Forbidden · 15-01-2013 02:57PM

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

For smaller distributors, physical distribution remains the primary revenue source. They can have a presence on digital sites, but their money is by and large made through DVD and Blu-Ray sales.

As long as the likes of Criterion and Masters of Cinema exist, I think its foolish to suggest physical media simply doesn't matter - maybe not for you, but the DVD and Blu-Ray markets still have a hell of a lot to offer. Their extremely high-quality transfers, lavish booklets and supplementary materials have earned them a rightfully sustainable niche with enthusiast consumers who cannot get the same things online. While many viewers don't care about such things - just have to look at how many would be willing to watch a cam-version - I and I'm sure many, many others would be lost if they didn't keep doing such high quality work. They currently complement digital distribution.

Not that HMV sell such titles, but y'know

Totally Agree and with 4K technology starting to make its way into Consumer Markets, there will have to be physical media. Irish Broadband speeds would not be able to handle such traffic and monthly data allowance could be gone within days. Netflix is only starting to using Super HD in the USA.

Just my 2 cents

Mickeroo · 15-01-2013 02:57PM

Terms and conditions aside, not letting people redeem vouchers is exactly the same as going into the shop, handing over cash for a cd only to be told "you can't have the cd and we're keeping your money because we're broke."

I get that the small print is there so they can do this and very few people read that small print which is a problem in itself but that doesn't justify it for me I have to say.

Myrddin · 15-01-2013 02:58PM

Fysh wrote: »

Are you seriously trying to suggest that, at a point when the viability of the business is in serious doubt, the foremost concern is making sure that people who've got vouchers lying around that they haven't used in the 3 weeks since Christmas can do so?

Why the hell shouldn't the vouchers be honored, HMV were paid for them so effectively they have money in the tills that wouldn't have been there had the vouchers not been sold.

suggest you readjust your perspective - it's probable they will honour existing vouchers if things go well over the next few days, but they have real debts to pay in the meantime and thus the often-ignored-but-nonetheless-binding terms of the voucher get enforced.

The terms of the voucher have not been enforced, they have in fact been ignored. From the very voucher in my hand:

HMV reserves the right to discontinue the gift card scheme at any time upon reasonable notice in which case all cards will automatically expire and any remaining balance deducted. Any relevant notice will be communicated by in store displays and the HMV website

So no, the terms have not been enforced, they've been ignored. No relevant notice about the invalidity of cards was communicated to consumers either by way of store displays or the website - they were, in fact, being sold by HMV until close of business yesterday.

Technocentral · 15-01-2013 03:02PM

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

For smaller distributors, physical distribution remains the primary revenue source. They can have a presence on digital sites, but their money is by and large made through DVD and Blu-Ray sales.

As long as the likes of Criterion and Masters of Cinema exist, I think its foolish to suggest physical media doesn't matter. Their extremely high-quality transfers, lavish booklets and supplementary materials have earned them a rightfully sustainable niche with enthusiast consumers who cannot get the same things online. While many viewers don't care about such things - just have to look at how many would be willing to watch a cam-version - I and I'm sure many, many others would be lost if they didn't keep doing such high quality work. They currently complement digital distribution.

Not that HMV sell such titles, but y'know

As you might suspect I agree with you on the superiority of definitely Blu Ray and sometimes DVDs (though Netflix streaming is better than DVD quality at the upper HD end if you can receive that) to streaming and the extras you sometimes get on the physical release are sometimes better or equal to the film itself! The likes of Netflix and Love film couldn't offer, for example lets say they had the all the films in the Alien Anthology, the 65 hours of extras that come with the Blu Ray box set, maybe in the future they will, but for now physical media has a distinct advantage to real film buffs over downloads and streaming. Still though, the average person who (used to) shops in the likes of HMV doesn't really care about the best quality and days of extras and the average shopper is what the likes of HMV needs to survive.

krudler · 15-01-2013 03:37PM

What annoyed me about the HMV stores lately was the amount of absolute tat they sold, chocolate bars at the till and stupid desk toys and novelty items. When I worked there the closest to that were those stupid "in my pocket" keyrings at the till. I loved working there but that was a few years ago. They're not that expensive as people make out, their sales are great and they're always cheaper than gamestop, was in both the other day, Dishonoured in hmv= 34.99, in gamestop, 54.99. feck that.

being left with only Gamestop as the option (aside from smyths but not everwhere has one) for games is terrifying.

johnny_ultimate · 15-01-2013 03:40PM

I think the sad reality is there's only so many copies of Step Brothers and The Nightmare Before Christmas for 2.99 any one person needs.

HMV have learned this harsh lesson to their peril.

sink · 15-01-2013 03:42PM

krudler wrote: »

being left with only Gamestop as the option (aside from smyths but not everwhere has one) for games is terrifying.

Xtra-Vision and Tesco too.

krudler · 15-01-2013 04:00PM

sink wrote: »

Xtra-Vision and Tesco too.

I never think of xtra-vision lol I havent rented anything in about 10 years kinda forget they sell stuff too. Tesco are good for day one releases, mad expensive for catalogue titles though

krudler · 15-01-2013 04:00PM

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

I think the sad reality is there's only so many copies of Step Brothers and The Nightmare Before Christmas for 2.99 any one person needs.

HMV have learned this harsh lesson to their peril.

I haaaated that working there. "would you like to buy any of the dvds on the counter for a fiver?" we knew christmas was coming when hundreds of copies of Willy Wonka and Miracle on 34th St would arrive :pac:

Theboinkmaster · 15-01-2013 04:08PM

EnterNow wrote: »

Why the hell shouldn't the vouchers be honored, HMV were paid for them so effectively they have money in the tills that wouldn't have been there had the vouchers not been sold.

The terms of the voucher have not been enforced, they have in fact been ignored. From the very voucher in my hand:

So no, the terms have not been enforced, they've been ignored. No relevant notice about the invalidity of cards was communicated to consumers either by way of store displays or the website - they were, in fact, being sold by HMV until close of business yesterday.

It's the law and the law is designed to keep the business viable. Your voucher at the date of administration is a liability on their balance sheet and so the only way to keep the business going is to write off most of the liabilities and sell the business as a going concern.

And to be honest i don't have much sympathy for voucher holders - this was always going to happen to HMV, I'm just surprised they lasted this long. They're business model was certainly doomed.

You don't buy/not redeem immediately vouchers for many Irish retailers these days, it really is common sense with the amount going out of business over the past 4 years.

HMV closing (again)

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