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Health committee hearings on legislating for abortion.

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13

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    #62
    Morag
    Registered Users Posts: 8,423 ✭✭✭Morag


    I have watched it and they have been rational and reasonable bar that one exchange in which they were insulted.


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    #63
    Macha
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,376 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    OK phew. I was getting a bit worried that their message wasn't coming across effectively.


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    #64
    Rothmans
    Registered Users Posts: 1,805 ✭✭✭Rothmans


    Macha wrote: »
    Umm...I haven't watched the whole presentation by the pro-choice groups but I think they're coming across as too aggressive and confrontational. I know they're getting the most ridiculous response from some members of the Committee but this isn't about point-scoring, it's about changing people's minds.

    The first speaker ( forget her name) is coming across as overly aggressive and extraordinarily dismissive to any questions which undermine her position.
    However, all the other speakers are speaking quite well imo.


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    #65
    Morag
    Registered Users Posts: 8,423 ✭✭✭Morag


    and now the deliberately awkward questions to try and paint pro choice people and groups as unreasonable, gender slection abortion and grand parents rights....Terence Flanagan TD


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    #66
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    Morag wrote: »
    and now the deliberately awkward questions to try and paint pro choice people and groups as unreasonable, gender slection abortion and grand parents rights....Terence Flanagan TD

    Whom I have contacted to ask about his position on forced pregnancy and who hasn't bothered to reply or even acknowledge me.


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    #67
    Lyaiera
    Registered Users Posts: 5,818 ✭✭✭Lyaiera


    I e-mailed all five of my TDs before Christmas asking them for their personal stance on abortion. I gave no hints in my e-mail about what my own position was, in hopes of getting a non-tailored response. Only one of my TDs could be bothered getting back to me. That's them completely avoiding the issue. I know someone who works for a TD in another constituency and she says there are standard e-mails ready to go back to constituents on any big issue, and if there's any extra questions she'll wait a few days, ask the TD and type up the response for him. That my four of my five TDs aren't responding is a pure sign of cowardice.


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    #68
    Morag
    Registered Users Posts: 8,423 ✭✭✭Morag


    At the closing of the hearing the Minster for health said they would be legislating for X case only with the ABC rulings from the EU courts of human rights in mind.

    In other words despite the red C poll stating 64% of people agreed with abortion for the X case and in cases of rape, incest and Fatal fetal abnormalities they are going do the bare minimum.

    It looks like for any of the other circumstances to be addressed (never mind a woman's choice/abortion on demand) there will have be a referendum around the 8th amendment.


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    #69
    Macha
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,376 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    Morag wrote: »
    At the closing of the hearing the Minster for health said they would be legislating for X case only with the ABC rulings from the EU courts of human rights in mind.

    In other words despite the red C poll stating 82% of people agreed with abortion for the X case and in cases of rape, incest and Fatal fetal abnormalities they are going do the bare minimum.

    It looks like for any of the other circumstances to be addressed (never mind a woman's choice/abortion on demand) there will have be a referendum around the 8th amendment.

    Ugh. Depressing.


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    #70
    xyz12
    Registered Users Posts: 3 ✭xyz12


    CroatoanCat wrote: »

    And another beautiful intervention from him this morning:"I would also like each of our esteemed guests in turn to tell me on behalf of their organisations, the Roman Catholic Church,Anglicanism, Presbyterianism, Methodism, Sunni Islam and Orthodox Judaism,whether a woman is allowed to rise to the top job in the organisation?"
    Well, quite!!

    There is no impediment to a woman becoming a Bishop in the Church of Ireland or the Moderator of the Presbyterian Church. The current Lay Leader of the Methodist Church is a woman. The incoming President of the Methodist Church is a female cleric. The speaker on behalf of the Methodist Church today was a lay woman.


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    #71
    Rothmans
    Registered Users Posts: 1,805 ✭✭✭Rothmans


    Morag wrote: »
    At the closing of the hearing the Minster for health said they would be legislating for X case only with the ABC rulings from the EU courts of human rights in mind.

    In other words despite the red C poll stating 64% of people agreed with abortion for the X case and in cases of rape, incest and Fatal fetal abnormalities they are going do the bare minimum.

    It looks like for any of the other circumstances to be addressed (never mind a woman's choice/abortion on demand) there will have be a referendum around the 8th amendment.

    Well, to be absolutely fair, that was all that was in mind with regard to these hearings, no?
    They were about the A,B & C v Ireland case, nothing more, nothing less.
    It was never intended that they would open the gate to convenience abortions.


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    #72
    Millicent
    Registered Users Posts: 4,559 ✭✭✭Millicent


    Rothmans wrote: »
    Well, to be absolutely fair, that was all that was in mind with regard to these hearings, no?
    They were about the A,B & C v Ireland case, nothing more, nothing less.
    It was never intended that they would open the gate to convenience abortions.

    How "convenient" do you think an abortion is? :confused: Bit of an odd turn of phrase...


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    #73
    Rothmans
    Registered Users Posts: 1,805 ✭✭✭Rothmans


    Millicent wrote: »
    How "convenient" do you think an abortion is? :confused: Bit of an odd turn of phrase...

    Not odd, but rather 'logical'. It is the distinction between what is necessary and what is not.
    With all due respect Millicent, 'an abotion' as you put it, is a very wide term. I agree with your opinion on most issues on these boards.
    However, this is one on which I must voice my own opinion.

    I find it startling that the majorty of pro-choice speakers adress the issue of abortion as a womens' rights issue, when, in actual fact, it is not merely on issue of women's rights, but one of human rights.

    One must consider a person's (A2) human rights ( whether that person is male or female) before they consider a person's (A8) rigths.


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    #74
    Macha
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,376 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    What are A2 and A8 rights?


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    #75
    LittleBook
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,716 ✭✭✭LittleBook


    Macha wrote: »
    What are A2 and A8 rights?

    EU Convention on Human Rights perhaps.

    Article 2 - Life
    Article 8 - Privacy
    Rothmans wrote: »
    One must consider a person's (A2) human rights ( whether that person is male or female) before they consider a person's (A8) rigths.

    If I've interpreted your abbreviation's correctly, which person's human rights are you referring to?


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    #76
    Rothmans
    Registered Users Posts: 1,805 ✭✭✭Rothmans


    LittleBook wrote: »
    EU Convention on Human Rights perhaps.

    Article 2 - Life
    Article 8 - Privacy



    If I've interpreted your abbreviation's correctly, which person's human rights are you referring to?

    Yes you have indeed.
    I think that both people's human rights should be considered. And it must be remembered also that the court explicitly stated in A, B and C, that there is absolutely no right to abortion under the ECHR.


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    #77
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,687 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    Rothmans wrote: »
    Yes you have indeed.
    I think that both people's human rights should be considered. And it must be remembered also that the court explicitly stated in A, B and C, that there is absolutely no right to abortion under the ECHR.

    Even in the case of the pregnancy continuing causing the death of another?

    Having followed the proceedings over the past three days, I can't see much changing.

    Minimal legislation will be brought in to cover x and the 20-30 abortions referred to by the Master of the Rotunda in my opinion

    It's the safest option for the government and will probably cover the findings of the Savita case.

    I'd not be surprised to see the above published the day after the findings in the Savita case.


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    #78
    meeeeh
    Registered Users Posts: 11,624 ✭✭✭✭meeeeh


    Much more can't be expected. Red C pool had that about 30% support abortion on demand (I hate that expression) so it is unrealistic to expect any more. I doubt many of those 30% are FG voters.


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    #79
    Macha
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,376 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    meeeeh wrote: »
    Much more can't be expected. Red C pool had that about 30% support abortion on demand (I hate that expression) so it is unrealistic to expect any more. I doubt many of those 30% are FG voters.

    True but what about at the very least pregnancies from rape, incest or fatal foetal abnormalities? I hate to think that these women would have to wait another 20 years.


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    #80
    CaraMay
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,652 ✭✭✭CaraMay


    Whether you like it or not the churches are representing a large number of men and women who follow the various churches teaching on abortion and who don't have a voice. It's the same principle as pro choice speakers speaking on behalf of all the women and men who are pro choice.

    As for the issue surrounding men speaking about abortion when it 'doesn't affect them', should savitas husband be told to shut up now?


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    #81
    Morag
    Registered Users Posts: 8,423 ✭✭✭Morag


    Macha wrote: »
    True but what about at the very least pregnancies from rape, incest or fatal foetal abnormalities? I hate to think that these women would have to wait another 20 years.

    Well then I would suggest that maybe if you feel that way, want to make a difference and can make time you get involved in the the new national campaign that is forming to cover those aspects.

    http://www.irishchoicenetwork.com/planning-day-19th-january.html


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    #82
    meeeeh
    Registered Users Posts: 11,624 ✭✭✭✭meeeeh


    Macha wrote: »

    True but what about at the very least pregnancies from rape, incest or fatal foetal abnormalities? I hate to think that these women would have to wait another 20 years.
    I agree with you but cynic in me also doesn't believe that politicians are prepared to lose their jobs on the issue like abortion or they would legislate for x case decades ago.


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    #83
    fits
    Registered Users Posts: 13,282 ✭✭✭✭fits


    CaraMay wrote: »

    As for the issue surrounding men speaking about abortion when it 'doesn't affect them', should savitas husband be told to shut up now?

    Of course men should be part of the argument but... there has been a distinct lack of empathy and understanding on the part of most male commenters on online forums and news websites. If you cant imagine a situation where you are in a crisis pregnancy and understand that its an extremely difficult place to be, then you have no business commenting on the issue imo no matter what side you are on.

    This thread has been quite refreshing from that point of view. It is actually rare enough on the news websites at least that women are in the majority of contributors.


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    #84
    CaraMay
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,652 ✭✭✭CaraMay


    Fits I see where you are coming from but then if you are a celibate female do you not have a say? Have nuns no rights to a viewpoint then?

    Not trying to be argumentative but it's not acceptable that the only people really entitled to a viewpoint are sexually active females (and males to a lesser extent).


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    #85
    fits
    Registered Users Posts: 13,282 ✭✭✭✭fits


    CaraMay wrote: »
    Fits I see where you are coming from but then if you are a celibate female do you not have a say? Have nuns no rights to a viewpoint then?

    Not trying to be argumentative but it's not acceptable that the only people really entitled to a viewpoint are sexually active females (and males to a lesser extent).

    I never said that noone had a right to a viewpoint. Never said that.

    People need to have empathy with others and the situations they can find themselves in when they're voicing their opinions. And there is a huge lack of that.


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    #86
    Macha
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,376 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    Morag wrote: »
    Well then I would suggest that maybe if you feel that way, want to make a difference and can make time you get involved in the the new national campaign that is forming to cover those aspects.

    http://www.irishchoicenetwork.com/planning-day-19th-january.html
    Unfortunately I am living abroad - one of the many more liberal younger Irish who have lost their voice by having to emigrate. Very bad timing.


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    #87
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,238 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    CaraMay wrote: »
    As for the issue surrounding men speaking about abortion when it 'doesn't affect them', should savitas husband be told to shut up now?

    That's a false argument because what is being sought is a choice. Nobody is looking for women in that position to be forced to abort.

    Gay marriage doesn't affect me, but it's perfectly fine for me to support that others have that choice. But if I were campaigning against it, you'd have to ask what right I had to take a choice away from other adults when the outcome of that choice has no effect on me.

    The anti-choice male campaigners don't appear to have much understanding of or sympathy for the plight of women in this situation, but then the anti-choice women don't seem to either.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #88
    CaraMay
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,652 ✭✭✭CaraMay


    Marriage isn't a life or death decision.


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    #89
    seenitall
    Registered Users Posts: 3,715 ✭✭✭seenitall


    CaraMay wrote: »
    Marriage isn't a life or death decision.

    Your point being?


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    #90
    pwurple
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,449 ✭✭✭✭pwurple


    seenitall wrote: »
    Your point being?

    Their point I imagine, is that the choice to end the life of another being isn't quite the same as any other choice.

    We do have the right to take that choice away from people who end the lives of others, often we imprison them. At the same time we train soldiers in how to kill others. It is complex.

    It is not like a choice of marriage or the choice on what breakfast cereal to eat, or any other choice, because it involves the ending of a life. It belittles it to reduce it to that.


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    #91
    fits
    Registered Users Posts: 13,282 ✭✭✭✭fits


    ^It is definitely something that requires careful consideration.

    Unfortunately a lot of the discourse has the unwritten implication that women cannot be trusted to consider this important issue for themselves and make their own decisions.

    Phrases like "abortion-on-demand" and "abortion as a form of contraception" are absolutely insulting to be frank.


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