Passport renewal while Bench warrant outstanding.

areyawell · 08-01-2013 03:31AM

It more than likely won't be in the system. Only serious things go in the system like murders, rapes etc. You should be grand.
There is a chance it could be in it though and then you won't get a passport and perhaps even reported to the Australian embassy.

Peregrinus · 08-01-2013 03:57AM

areyawell wrote: »

It more than likely won't be in the system. Only serious things go in the system like murders, rapes etc. You should be grand.

Skipping a bench warrant is likely to be in the system, since leaving the country is much the most obvious way to avoid having to answer a bench warrant. Given that having a bench warrant outstanding is one of the comparatively few reasons that the courts have already said justifies refusing a passport to someone, it would be an embarrassingly inadequate system that didn't check passport applications against outstanding bench warrants.

As for only putting bench warrants for serious offences into the system, no. Why would they do it that way? It takes more work to review each bench warrant and decide how serious it is before entering it into the system than simply to enter all bench warrants. When the system flags that someone on a bench warrant has applied for a passport, then you can consider the matter and decide whether the seriousness of the charge, and other factors, justify the refusal of the passport. That way you have many fewer cases that you need to consider in detail.

areyawell wrote: »

There is a chance it could be in it though and then you won't get a passport and perhaps even reported to the Australian embassy.

Being reported to the Australians is not a problem. They don't care. It's not their courts that the OP is avoiding. True, it could bugger up any later visa application the OP might later make, but without a valid passport he won't be able to apply for a visa anyway. But, in any event, I doubt that the Irish embassy would report this to the Australian authorities.

No, the main downside to applying for a passport renewal is that it will alert the Irish authorities to where the OP now is. They could attempt to extradite him from Australia though, frankly, for motoring and public order offences that's not very likely.

Corkbah · 08-01-2013 11:25AM

the_syco wrote: »

Firstly, if he was there illegally, he wouldn't really need the passport. Secondly, your bro most likely has a motoring conviction, as opposed to a motoring offence. From my understanding, the OP (Original Poster) left the country before he got the conviction, and thus that is probably why he was able to get into Oz.

I'm guessing the OP got caught drink driving or something like that, feared he wouldn't have gotten a visa with such a conviction, and skipped the country before any convictions could be brought against him.

Yes, but an Australian Police Officer should be fine for that.

He said at the start that he left because he had previous for similar offences and feared jail this time .... so he could also have lied on his visa application (if he is legally in Oz).

so... the OP is either
A) in Oz illegally (no visa) in which case if/when caught he will be deported

in Oz legally (with a visa) in which case he may or may not have lied on his application and if discovered he will be deported.

as regards the passport issue - its currently (almost or already) out of date, if the OP is in the country illegally - they will only need the passport to travel by air (i.e.. when returning home or travel to explore other parts of the country or other countries, so if he doesn't intend doing any of them...he's safe)
if the OP is in the country legally (on renewal of passport its possible that the authorities will find the outstanding warrant/details...its possible that they won't ....similarly with the possible false declaration on visa application)

one thing is for certain ... if you return home you face extra charges on top of the original drunk/disorderly and driving offences you will also face failing to appear..bench warrant issued and could face obstruction of justice charges ...any court will not look favourably on someone who tries to avoid facing justice !!

Marcusm · 08-01-2013 11:29AM

MagicSean wrote: »

And an embassy is not considered to be within the home country's jurisdiction?

Even if it was, I doubt that they would have any authority to transport him between the embassy and any airport or other transport venue in that foreign country. It would be difficult to enforce it in any meaningful way.

Marcusm · 08-01-2013 11:31AM

Grass between the tracks wrote: »

Are you an Irish citizen? That I am not clear on.

It's generally a condition of obtaining an Irish passport to be an Irish citizen (ignoring refugees who have not been nationalised).

Corkbah · 08-01-2013 11:36AM

Marcusm wrote: »

Even if it was, I doubt that they would have any authority to transport him between the embassy and any airport or other transport venue in that foreign country. It would be difficult to enforce it in any meaningful way.

embassy vehicles have diplomatic immunity - i.e.. transport within a diplomatic vehicle to the airport and on to an aeroplane is possible.

Peregrinus · 08-01-2013 11:46AM

Corkbah wrote: »

embassy vehicles have diplomatic immunity - i.e.. transport within a diplomatic vehicle to the airport and on to an aeroplane is possible.

But the host nation would protest vigorously. Embassies enjoy their immunities for the purpose of carrying on their diplomatic activities, which definitely does not extent to the arrest and repatriation of the embassy's own nationals in the host country. This would be a clear abuse of diplomatic status, and undoubtedly would lead to retaliatory measures.

ThreeLineWhip · 08-01-2013 11:49AM

Extraordinary rendition would not be allowed.

Corkbah · 08-01-2013 11:54AM

Peregrinus wrote: »

But the host nation would protest vigorously. Embassies enjoy their immunities for the purpose of carrying on their diplomatic activities, which definitely does not extent to the arrest and repatriation of the embassy's own nationals in the host country. This would be a clear abuse of diplomatic status, and undoubtedly would lead to retaliatory measures.

ok... so.. they would use the same method that they use when transporting someone who is for extradition !!

you really think another country is going to say its illegal to send your own citizen home to face charges of a criminal nature ?? if he remains outside the embassy the host country can object but if he goes into the embassy he is willingly going ... and the host country cant object !!

Corkbah · 08-01-2013 11:57AM

ThreeLineWhip wrote: »

Extraordinary rendition would not be allowed.

extraordinary rendition is for the purposes of torture ...not for the purposes of seeking justice !!

if a person is before the courts - and they abscond - the government (if they can determine what country the person is currently residing) can apply to have them returned to the state to face prosecution.

ThreeLineWhip · 08-01-2013 11:58AM

Those are the Vienna convention rules.

Tough if they don't meet your exacting moral requirements.

Peregrinus · 08-01-2013 12:01PM

Corkbah wrote: »

ok... so.. they would use the same method that they use when transporting someone who is for extradition !!

you really think another country is going to say its illegal to send your own citizen home to face charges of a criminal nature ?? if he remains outside the embassy the host country can object but if he goes into the embassy he is willingly going ... and the host country cant object !!

They can, and they will. It's not the business of the Irish embassy in Australia to enforce Irish law in Australia or against Irish nationals in Australia, and the Australians would be livid if there was any attempt to do so. An embassy is not allowed to act as a law enforcement agency in the host country.

There's a precedent. Some years back an embassy in the UK - it might have been the Nigerian embassy, but I don't want to malign the Republic of Nigeria baselessly - attempted to return one of their own nationals to Nigeria by luring him to the embassy, forcibly drugging him and concealing him in a large crate, which they then tried to send home under the seal of the diplomatic bag. At the airport it was detected that there was a person in the crate. Over the protests of the embassy staff the crate was broken open and the prisoner rescued and released. The Nigerians (if it was them) protested at the violation of the diplomatic bag; the UK protested at the abuse of diplomatic privilege and declared both the ambassador and the chief of protocol persona non grata ( meaning they had to be withdrawn).

Corkbah · 08-01-2013 12:01PM

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/authorities-seek-collopy-extradition-from-bulgaria-3343784.html

example of the government seeking an extradition for someone who is due before the courts

When he is eventually extradited home, Vincent is likely to face threats to kill and intimidation charges as part of the lengthy investigation.

same thing could apply for the OP - if the government know where he is (i.e.. he applies for a renewal of his passport)

Corkbah · 08-01-2013 12:04PM

Peregrinus wrote: »

They can, and they will. It's not the business of the Irish embassy in Australia to enforce Irish law in Australia or against Irish nationals in Australia, and the Australians would be livid if there was any attempt to do so. An embassy is not allowed to act as a law enforcement agency in the host country.

There's a precedent. Some years back an embassy in the UK - it might have been the Nigerian embassy, but I don't want to malign the Republic of Nigeria baselessly - attempted to return one of their own nationals to Nigeria by luring him to the embassy, forcibly drugging him and concealing him in a large crate, which they then tried to send home under the seal of the diplomatic bag. At the airport it was detected that there was a person in the crate. Over the protests of the embassy staff the crate was broken open and the prisoner rescued and released. The Nigerians (if it was them) protested at the violation of the diplomatic bag; the UK protested at the abuse of diplomatic privilege and declared both the ambassador and the chief of protocol persona non grata ( meaning they had to be withdrawn).

but that is the embassy officials effectively kidnapping a person - completely different to the OP applying for a renewal passport and the government saying he's wanted back here to face charges before the courts ...can you send him back please (i.e.. extradition)

the point I was making earlier was to another poster who was trying to figure out how they can transport from the embassy to the airport (as technically they would be back on host country soil) and I said they could use an embassy vehicle.

Peregrinus · 08-01-2013 12:06PM

Corkbah wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/authorities-seek-collopy-extradition-from-bulgaria-3343784.html

example of the government seeking an extradition for someone who is due before the courts

same thing could apply for the OP - if the government know where he is (i.e.. he applies for a renewal of his passport)

Entirely different. In that case the Irish government are asking the Bulgarians to arrest this bloke, bring him before the Bulgarian courts for an extradition hearing, and then extradite him in accordance with Bulgarian law. Perfectly routine, perfectly straightforward, not at all objectionable. And not to be compared with embassy officials themselves detaining someone, and trying to rush him out of the country under cover of their own diplomatic immunity.

ThreeLineWhip · 08-01-2013 12:07PM

They can ask the Australian government to extradite using the normal legal channels. They can't simply grab him because he set foot in the embassy.

Corkbah · 08-01-2013 12:17PM

Peregrinus wrote: »

Entirely different. In that case the Irish government are asking the Bulgarians to arrest this bloke, bring him before the Bulgarian courts for an extradition hearing, and then extradite him in accordance with Bulgarian law. Perfectly routine, perfectly straightforward, not at all objectionable. And not to be compared with embassy officials themselves detaining someone, and trying to rush him out of the country under cover of their own diplomatic immunity.

I'm not saying that ... if you re-read my posts I'm saying that :

if they government get an address for the OP (on request for renewal of passport), they can apply for an extradition (ie. for the OP to be sent home to Ireland).

I'm not suggesting that there would be some diplomatic cover up or diplomatic officials would kidnap the OP, they might arrange for the Oz police to be waiting for him to arrest him on foot of extradition warrant (or would you consider that to be an abuse by diplomatic personnel ??)

Dodge · 08-01-2013 12:18PM

Couple of things to clarify on how embassies work.

1) They can't issue passports without the HQ system. So if he applies, the application is fed into the central database. Some here think bench warrents show up on this. I'm not so sure

2) There's no gardai in 95% of embassies/consulates (including the 2 in Australia - Canberra/Sydney).

A visa/right to remain stamp would only be issued for up a month before the passport's expiry date. So my own guess is that the OP is illegal in Australia if his/her passport is due to expire

ThreeLineWhip · 08-01-2013 12:19PM

Corkbah wrote: »

I'm not saying that ... if you re-read my posts I'm saying that :

if they government get an address for the OP (on request for renewal of passport), they can apply for an extradition (ie. for the OP to be sent home to Ireland).

I'm not suggesting that there would be some diplomatic cover up or diplomatic officials would kidnap the OP, they might arrange for the Oz police to be waiting for him to arrest him on foot of extradition warrant (or would you consider that to be an abuse by diplomatic personnel ??)

So keep him in the embassy having numerous cups of tea while an extradition request is being prepared?

Corkbah · 08-01-2013 12:26PM

ThreeLineWhip wrote: »

So keep him in the embassy having numerous cups of tea while an extradition request is being prepared?

seriously ... !!! .. why do I bother responding ?

when a person applies for a passport while abroad, they must either give an address or collect in embassy, a passport is not just printed up and given out straight away.

IN THIS CASE ... when the person applies if the officials spot the outstanding warrant they inform the government officials here (Ireland) and then an extradition warrant is applied for....this can take as little as an hour or two, simply a matter of going to duty judge and getting them to endorse the warrant.

Warrant is then sent or brought to the country involved and person is arrested and deported (or in Ireland they can challenge the warrant which simply just delays things)

Marcusm · 08-01-2013 12:31PM

Corkbah wrote: »

extraordinary rendition is for the purposes of torture ...not for the purposes of seeking justice !!

I think you are confusing the meaning of the words ewith the context in which they have recently been used. Rendition is a combination of processes (generally involving lawful extradition) through which a person is handed over (rendered) from one legal system to another. "Extraordinary" simply means that it is done without the usual (or indeed due) legal processes. There need not be an intention of torture for something be be "extraordinary rendition" It is in fact the most apt term to decribe the inference that apprehension in an embassy followed by transport in an embassy car to an airport could be regarded as an approprite process.

The principal issue here is whether there is a search on bench warrants prior to issuance of a passport either at a consular service abroad (as that is who arranges the passport) or indeed at the passport office in Ireland. I'm willing to be that it is not that co ordinated.

That being said, unless the OP has the ability to stay abroad permanently, I suspect he's increasing his ultimate penalty.

Peregrinus · 08-01-2013 12:33PM

I've already pointed out that if he applies for a passport the Irish authorities will know where he is. This is true regardless of whether he applies by post, or goes in person to the embassy. They can then prepare an extradition request, communicate it to the Australian authorities, set the wheels in motion, etc (though it would be very unusual for them to do this over motoring offences, and the Aussies would probably not be thrilled to have to spend Australia police time on such a matter). By the time the Aussies were ready to move, many weeks or months would have passed. If he had been to the embassy, he would certainly no longer be there.

It's unlikely that an arrest would be staged at the embassy when, e.g., he returned in the expectation of collecting his passport. It would complicate issues, since he could then argue, when brought before an Australian court for an extradition hearing, that the Australian police had exceeded their authority in arresting him at a place which enjoyed diplomatic immunity. Why complicate issues in this way? They'd have his home address; they'd arrest him there at a time convenient to themselves.

Dodge · 08-01-2013 12:36PM

Marcusm wrote: »

The principal issue here is whether there is a search on bench warrants prior to issuance of a passport either at a consular service abroad (as that is who arranges the passport) or indeed at the passport office in Ireland. I'm willing to be that it is not that co ordinated

The passport process between embassy/consulate and HQ in Duublin is certainly co-ordinated. Whether that database is co-ordinated with the Garda list is open to question though

MagicSean · 08-01-2013 12:39PM

Presumably to renew a visa he will need a police certificate of character. In fact, would he not have needed this to get one in the first place?

Peregrinus · 08-01-2013 12:42PM

MagicSean wrote: »

Presumably to renew a visa he will need a police certificate of character. In fact, would he not have needed this to get one in the first place?

Depends on the visa.

IRLConor · 08-01-2013 01:06PM

Rather than going the extradition route, would they not simply refuse to renew the passport and then wait for the Australians to deport him?

(Possibly with a tip to the local cops: "By the way lads, there's a guy called Evocnala who gave us 123 Main St... as his address and we know his passport's out of date. Just thought you might like to know. Also, keep an eye on him, he's done a runner on us before.")

Less paperwork and I can't imagine the Aussie cops look too kindly on either people running from bench warrants or on people with out of date visas so they'd probably play ball. No need to go all Lethal Weapon 2 with the diplomatic immunity either.

ThreeLineWhip · 08-01-2013 03:17PM

Would it not be impossible to deport a person with no valid travel document? Surely no country would accept such a person?

Peregrinus · 08-01-2013 03:18PM

They could try that. The Aussies, however, don't put a huge amount of effort into deporting people who overstay WHV visas, tourist visas and the like. They find it's more cost-effective to wait until they have occasion to leave anyway.

Peregrinus · 08-01-2013 03:24PM

ThreeLineWhip wrote: »

Would it not be impossible to deport a person with no valid travel document? Surely no country would accept such a person?

Your country of citizenship will accept you, even if your passport has expired. You're still a citizen, with a right of entry and abode.

(Obviously, a country could legislate to say that they won't do this, but it's pretty rare. The UK has (or had) a class of British Overseas Citizen, who had no right of entry to the UK, but would be accepted in certain overseas territories. But cases like this are exceptional.)

ThreeLineWhip · 08-01-2013 03:31PM

The problem would be that airlines operating out of Australia would probably reject the OP's expired passport.

I have seen television shows in the UK where they state that they cannot deport an alien unless they have a valid travel document for that alien and sometimes the country of that alien is less than helpful in furnishing to the UKBA a valid document. The end result being the person being released until they can be deported.

Passport renewal while Bench warrant outstanding.

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