Passport renewal while Bench warrant outstanding.

Evocnala

Hi all,
I am hoping somebody will be able to help me on this one. I have a bench warrant for driving offences and a public order offence. My passport is soon due for renewal and I am living in a foreign country. My question being, will I be able to apply for a renewal or what will the situation be? Will it automatically stop me because of the warrant?

Is it possible that I may get one easier at an embassy in a foreign country?

Need help and any of your opinions will be much appreciated.

Thanking you,
Evan.

Corkbah

the bench warrant will be in the system and it'll be flagged when you renew your passport .... why did you skip the country knowing you had traffic offences and public order offences pending ??

This will let the Gardai know which country you are in...if they wish to execute the bench warrant (they can apply for an extradition order to arrest and deport you back home to face the charges...if you are in a country with an extradition agreement)

Grass between the tracks

If the OP is outside the state then he should renew his passport at an embassy.

A bench warrant has no bearing on this.

MagicSean

Grass between the tracks wrote: »

If the OP is outside the state then he should renew his passport at an embassy.

A bench warrant has no bearing on this.

If they cop he has a bench warrant could he not be arrested?

Grass between the tracks

If he was in the state yes.

The OP states that he is abroad.

MagicSean

Grass between the tracks wrote: »

If he was in the state yes.

The OP states that he is abroad.

And an embassy is not considered to be within the home country's jurisdiction?

Grass between the tracks

MagicSean wrote: »

And an embassy is not considered to be within the home country's jurisdiction?

Only if he was silly enough to apply in person.

Also do embassies have Gardaí on duty within them? Do consular officers have authority to arrest for a bench warrant?

Evocnala

Thanks for the replies guys. In reply to "Corkbah": I left because I have previous road traffic and public order and feared a term of imprisonment.

@GrassBetweenTheTracks: What is an OP and can you apply for it at an embassy without going in person or how does that work?
I have been in this country for over a year now and certain gardai of my local station know this and I don't think an extradition would be requested due to the lack of seriousness involved with the said charges but as you said, if I were to apply in person then it more than likely would.

Grass between the tracks

Apply by post.

GerardKeating

MagicSean wrote: »

And an embassy is not considered to be within the home country's jurisdiction?

Also they might refuse to renew, which might be much cheaper than extradition.

Corkbah

Evocnala wrote: »

Thanks for the replies guys. In reply to "Corkbah": I left because I have previous road traffic and public order and feared a term of imprisonment.

@GrassBetweenTheTracks: What is an OP and can you apply for it at an embassy without going in person or how does that work?
I have been in this country for over a year now and certain gardai of my local station know this and I don't think an extradition would be requested due to the lack of seriousness involved with the said charges but as you said, if I were to apply in person then it more than likely would.

was it worth leaving your family and life here ? ...the fear of imprisonment.... why commit the offences if you know the possibility of going to jail was present.

Grass between the tracks

Is that any of your business?

johnnyskeleton

MagicSean wrote: »

And an embassy is not considered to be within the home country's jurisdiction?

It's not. It's in the other country. It is only by convention that embassys abroad are not entered by police forces.

MagicSean

Grass between the tracks wrote: »

Only if he was silly enough to apply in person.

Also do embassies have Gardaí on duty within them? Do consular officers have authority to arrest for a bench warrant?

I believe there are gardaí assigned to embassy duty. In what capacity I do not know.

Grass between the tracks wrote: »

Apply by post.

You need to get the photos witnessed don't you?

GerardKeating wrote: »

Also they might refuse to renew, which might be much cheaper than extradition.

Seems like the best course of action if they know about the warrant.

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

It's not. It's in the other country. It is only by convention that embassys abroad are not entered by police forces.

Good to know.

Evocnala

Well what's done is done CORKBAH, it's my options regarding my passport renewal I am worried about but thanks for your concern.

Grassbetweenthetracks: Do you know that is a safe option or are you speculating that it'd be good to go? Just worried about it all messing with my career in the country I am in.


Thanks again

Grass between the tracks

Are you an Irish citizen? That I am not clear on.

Kensington

Evocnala wrote: »

Well what's done is done CORKBAH, it's my options regarding my passport renewal I am worried about but thanks for your concern.

Grassbetweenthetracks: Do you know that is a safe option or are you speculating that it'd be good to go? Just worried about it all messing with my career in the country I am in.


Thanks again

Your chances of being arrested in a foreign country - even in an embassy - are pretty slim I'd imagine (how can they arrest you and then retain you without legal authority while they transport you through and out of the foreign country in which you are in?), but it's highly likely that they will revoke your current passport, whether you apply in person or by post, and refuse to issue you with another one ever again until such time the warrant is executed. That warrant is with you until the day you die, unless you face up to it.

Is there any possibility you could return home, face the consequences and be done with it then?

coylemj

Do some posters here seriously think that every Irish embassy around the world has an up to date list of outstanding bench warrants?

So let's say they do, the OP walks in to renew his passport and they arrest him on the basis that he is standing on Irish 'soil'. What happens next? Is there a cell in the embassy? Don't they still need to get him from the embassy to the nearest airport to fly him home to answer the warrants in which case their jurisdiction (to arrest him on an Irish warrant) lapses because they are back on the host country 'soil'. And doesn't that mean that the instant they step over the embassy boundary they have to release him?

The suggestion is so full of holes, it's laughable.

Dubwat

If he applies by post, he'll be giving the Irish Govt/system his new address. If 'they' really wanted him (unlikely), they could give his new address to the local police and ask them to arrest him & extradite etc?

Assuming he's in Europe, does he need an up-to-date passport to travel around? Or would a (new country) driving licence/ID suffice to travel by ferry/train. I think most airlines now ask for a passport?

(P.S. I'm not a lawyer)

Grass between the tracks

Under what legal authority could they revoke a passport?

Evocnala

Yeah i'm an Irish citizen. It is Australia I am in now and would love to know for sure what to do

GerardKeating

Grass between the tracks wrote: »

Under what legal authority could they revoke a passport?

It's written on the passport that it is the property of the state and must be surrender on demand.

Peregrinus

You will not be arrested if you present yourself at an Irish embassy abroad. Contrary to popular belief they are not considered Irish territory.

You may, however, be refused a renewal of your passport. In general there's a right to travel abroad, and a concomitant expectation that the state will issue you a passport so as not to frustrate that right, but this is not an absolute obligation on the state, and their are circumstances in which the state can decline to issue a passport. There's a case from 1979 (State (M) v A-G 1979 IR 73) which suggests that your being under an obligation to attend court in Ireland to be tried for an offence may be sufficient reason not to issue you with a passport.

On a practical level, I don't know whether the Dept of Foreign Affairs systems are good enough to connect the dots between your passport application and your unsatisfied bench warrant but, if they are, my guess is that you will not be able to get your passport renewed.

Grass between the tracks

Is there a requirement to be of good character to obtain a passport?

Peregrinus

Grass between the tracks wrote: »

Is there a requirement to be of good character to obtain a passport?

No. The default position is that a citizen is entitled to a passport unless there is some definite reason for not issuing one. There is no exhaustive list of the reasons which justify refusing a passport, but having skipped the country while on a bench warrant is certainly one.

twowheelsonly

You'll have another charge now as well of failing to appear/estreatment of bail !!

What type of Visa are you in Australia on?
Presumably this will expire sooner or later which could cause even more problems for you in the longer term.
I would imagine that all passports re-issued by Embassies are first matched against the Irish database, whether or not anybody has bothered to flag your warrants against this is anybodies guess.

For what it's worth - (Not an attack on you personally BTW) - I think that you were foolish to run away from it. When your time over there is up you'd be as well to come home and face the music before you go off anywhere else. Do it on your terms though. Contact the local Gardaí before you come back and arrange to meet them by appointment rather than have them looking for you again. This will 100% go in your favour in court.

qwertypop

How did you get into oz with outstanding cases due. My brother went there last year and it was a nightmare trying to get the visa cause he had a nasty motoring offence. Are you there illegaly.

My honest answer to you is just to hand yourself in. It's no life having to run away and always watching your back. Ya it might be the case that they'll never execute the warrant while your in oz but if the oz'ies ever find out then your in deep waters

Grass between the tracks

Peregrinus wrote: »

No. The default position is that a citizen is entitled to a passport unless there is some definite reason for not issuing one. There is no exhaustive list of the reasons which justify refusing a passport, but having skipped the country while on a bench warrant is certainly one.

Surely the embassy would issue a document to allow the OP travel to Ireland to hand himself in?

Peregrinus

twowheelsonly wrote: »

You'll have another charge now as well of failing to appear/estreatment of bail !!

Allowing your passport to expire without renewal is not an offence. Nor is applying for renewal and being refused.

twowheelsonly wrote: »

What type of Visa are you in Australia on?
Presumably this will expire sooner or later which could cause even more problems for you in the longer term.

Regardless of what type of Australian visa it is, it does not lapse merely because the holder's passport has expired. So, if the OP does not renew his passport, he will not become liable to deportation from Australia. But he will, of course, be unable either to leave Australia or to enter any other country or to return to Australia without a passport.

If he's on a time-limited visa, when it does expire he will be unable to get a replacement visa without having a valid passport, and at that stage he will become liable to deportation.

If he's deported to Ireland in those circumstances the Irish authorities will, of course, be notified in advance, so when he arrives they'll likely be waiting for him to enforce the warrant.

So this is not a situation which is going to improve with time. The OP can try to live quietly in Australia, never leaving the country and hoping never to attract attention to his eventually undocumented status. But if he doesn't want to do that, or fears that he may not be able to carry it off successfully, then his best option is to return to Ireland voluntarily, contacting the guards beforehand to come to the best terms he can with regard to facing up to the outstanding charges.

Peregrinus

Grass between the tracks wrote: »

Surely the embassy would issue a document to allow the OP travel to Ireland to hand himself in?

Of course, yes, if that's what he agrees to do. But the document would not necessarily be a passport, but rather some kind of temporary single-use document to get him back to Ireland. Or it might be a very limited passport, good for only a short time, and specifically endorsed that it was not to be used to enter any country other than Ireland. I don't see them issuing him with the usual five-year unrestricted passport.

the_syco

qwertypop wrote: »

How did you get into oz with outstanding cases due. My brother went there last year and it was a nightmare trying to get the visa cause he had a nasty motoring offence. Are you there illegaly.

Firstly, if he was there illegally, he wouldn't really need the passport. Secondly, your bro most likely has a motoring conviction, as opposed to a motoring offence. From my understanding, the OP (Original Poster) left the country before he got the conviction, and thus that is probably why he was able to get into Oz.

I'm guessing the OP got caught drink driving or something like that, feared he wouldn't have gotten a visa with such a conviction, and skipped the country before any convictions could be brought against him.

MagicSean wrote: »

You need to get the photos witnessed don't you?

Yes, but an Australian Police Officer should be fine for that.

areyawell

It more than likely won't be in the system. Only serious things go in the system like murders, rapes etc. You should be grand.
There is a chance it could be in it though and then you won't get a passport and perhaps even reported to the Australian embassy.

Peregrinus

areyawell wrote: »

It more than likely won't be in the system. Only serious things go in the system like murders, rapes etc. You should be grand.

Skipping a bench warrant is likely to be in the system, since leaving the country is much the most obvious way to avoid having to answer a bench warrant. Given that having a bench warrant outstanding is one of the comparatively few reasons that the courts have already said justifies refusing a passport to someone, it would be an embarrassingly inadequate system that didn't check passport applications against outstanding bench warrants.

As for only putting bench warrants for serious offences into the system, no. Why would they do it that way? It takes more work to review each bench warrant and decide how serious it is before entering it into the system than simply to enter all bench warrants. When the system flags that someone on a bench warrant has applied for a passport, then you can consider the matter and decide whether the seriousness of the charge, and other factors, justify the refusal of the passport. That way you have many fewer cases that you need to consider in detail.

areyawell wrote: »

There is a chance it could be in it though and then you won't get a passport and perhaps even reported to the Australian embassy.

Being reported to the Australians is not a problem. They don't care. It's not their courts that the OP is avoiding. True, it could bugger up any later visa application the OP might later make, but without a valid passport he won't be able to apply for a visa anyway. But, in any event, I doubt that the Irish embassy would report this to the Australian authorities.

No, the main downside to applying for a passport renewal is that it will alert the Irish authorities to where the OP now is. They could attempt to extradite him from Australia though, frankly, for motoring and public order offences that's not very likely.

Corkbah

the_syco wrote: »

Firstly, if he was there illegally, he wouldn't really need the passport. Secondly, your bro most likely has a motoring conviction, as opposed to a motoring offence. From my understanding, the OP (Original Poster) left the country before he got the conviction, and thus that is probably why he was able to get into Oz.

I'm guessing the OP got caught drink driving or something like that, feared he wouldn't have gotten a visa with such a conviction, and skipped the country before any convictions could be brought against him.


Yes, but an Australian Police Officer should be fine for that.

He said at the start that he left because he had previous for similar offences and feared jail this time .... so he could also have lied on his visa application (if he is legally in Oz).

so... the OP is either
A) in Oz illegally (no visa) in which case if/when caught he will be deported
in Oz legally (with a visa) in which case he may or may not have lied on his application and if discovered he will be deported.

as regards the passport issue - its currently (almost or already) out of date, if the OP is in the country illegally - they will only need the passport to travel by air (i.e.. when returning home or travel to explore other parts of the country or other countries, so if he doesn't intend doing any of them...he's safe)
if the OP is in the country legally (on renewal of passport its possible that the authorities will find the outstanding warrant/details...its possible that they won't ....similarly with the possible false declaration on visa application)

one thing is for certain ... if you return home you face extra charges on top of the original drunk/disorderly and driving offences you will also face failing to appear..bench warrant issued and could face obstruction of justice charges ...any court will not look favourably on someone who tries to avoid facing justice !!

Marcusm

MagicSean wrote: »

And an embassy is not considered to be within the home country's jurisdiction?

Even if it was, I doubt that they would have any authority to transport him between the embassy and any airport or other transport venue in that foreign country. It would be difficult to enforce it in any meaningful way.

Marcusm

Grass between the tracks wrote: »

Are you an Irish citizen? That I am not clear on.

It's generally a condition of obtaining an Irish passport to be an Irish citizen (ignoring refugees who have not been nationalised).

Corkbah

Marcusm wrote: »

Even if it was, I doubt that they would have any authority to transport him between the embassy and any airport or other transport venue in that foreign country. It would be difficult to enforce it in any meaningful way.

embassy vehicles have diplomatic immunity - i.e.. transport within a diplomatic vehicle to the airport and on to an aeroplane is possible.

Peregrinus

Corkbah wrote: »

embassy vehicles have diplomatic immunity - i.e.. transport within a diplomatic vehicle to the airport and on to an aeroplane is possible.

But the host nation would protest vigorously. Embassies enjoy their immunities for the purpose of carrying on their diplomatic activities, which definitely does not extent to the arrest and repatriation of the embassy's own nationals in the host country. This would be a clear abuse of diplomatic status, and undoubtedly would lead to retaliatory measures.

ThreeLineWhip

Extraordinary rendition would not be allowed.

Corkbah

Peregrinus wrote: »

But the host nation would protest vigorously. Embassies enjoy their immunities for the purpose of carrying on their diplomatic activities, which definitely does not extent to the arrest and repatriation of the embassy's own nationals in the host country. This would be a clear abuse of diplomatic status, and undoubtedly would lead to retaliatory measures.

ok... so.. they would use the same method that they use when transporting someone who is for extradition !!

you really think another country is going to say its illegal to send your own citizen home to face charges of a criminal nature ?? if he remains outside the embassy the host country can object but if he goes into the embassy he is willingly going ... and the host country cant object !!

Corkbah

ThreeLineWhip wrote: »

Extraordinary rendition would not be allowed.

extraordinary rendition is for the purposes of torture ...not for the purposes of seeking justice !!

if a person is before the courts - and they abscond - the government (if they can determine what country the person is currently residing) can apply to have them returned to the state to face prosecution.

ThreeLineWhip

Those are the Vienna convention rules.

Tough if they don't meet your exacting moral requirements.

Peregrinus

Corkbah wrote: »

ok... so.. they would use the same method that they use when transporting someone who is for extradition !!

you really think another country is going to say its illegal to send your own citizen home to face charges of a criminal nature ?? if he remains outside the embassy the host country can object but if he goes into the embassy he is willingly going ... and the host country cant object !!

They can, and they will. It's not the business of the Irish embassy in Australia to enforce Irish law in Australia or against Irish nationals in Australia, and the Australians would be livid if there was any attempt to do so. An embassy is not allowed to act as a law enforcement agency in the host country.

There's a precedent. Some years back an embassy in the UK - it might have been the Nigerian embassy, but I don't want to malign the Republic of Nigeria baselessly - attempted to return one of their own nationals to Nigeria by luring him to the embassy, forcibly drugging him and concealing him in a large crate, which they then tried to send home under the seal of the diplomatic bag. At the airport it was detected that there was a person in the crate. Over the protests of the embassy staff the crate was broken open and the prisoner rescued and released. The Nigerians (if it was them) protested at the violation of the diplomatic bag; the UK protested at the abuse of diplomatic privilege and declared both the ambassador and the chief of protocol persona non grata ( meaning they had to be withdrawn).

Corkbah

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/authorities-seek-collopy-extradition-from-bulgaria-3343784.html

example of the government seeking an extradition for someone who is due before the courts

When he is eventually extradited home, Vincent is likely to face threats to kill and intimidation charges as part of the lengthy investigation.

same thing could apply for the OP - if the government know where he is (i.e.. he applies for a renewal of his passport)

Corkbah

Peregrinus wrote: »

They can, and they will. It's not the business of the Irish embassy in Australia to enforce Irish law in Australia or against Irish nationals in Australia, and the Australians would be livid if there was any attempt to do so. An embassy is not allowed to act as a law enforcement agency in the host country.

There's a precedent. Some years back an embassy in the UK - it might have been the Nigerian embassy, but I don't want to malign the Republic of Nigeria baselessly - attempted to return one of their own nationals to Nigeria by luring him to the embassy, forcibly drugging him and concealing him in a large crate, which they then tried to send home under the seal of the diplomatic bag. At the airport it was detected that there was a person in the crate. Over the protests of the embassy staff the crate was broken open and the prisoner rescued and released. The Nigerians (if it was them) protested at the violation of the diplomatic bag; the UK protested at the abuse of diplomatic privilege and declared both the ambassador and the chief of protocol persona non grata ( meaning they had to be withdrawn).

but that is the embassy officials effectively kidnapping a person - completely different to the OP applying for a renewal passport and the government saying he's wanted back here to face charges before the courts ...can you send him back please (i.e.. extradition)

the point I was making earlier was to another poster who was trying to figure out how they can transport from the embassy to the airport (as technically they would be back on host country soil) and I said they could use an embassy vehicle.

Peregrinus

Corkbah wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/authorities-seek-collopy-extradition-from-bulgaria-3343784.html

example of the government seeking an extradition for someone who is due before the courts



same thing could apply for the OP - if the government know where he is (i.e.. he applies for a renewal of his passport)

Entirely different. In that case the Irish government are asking the Bulgarians to arrest this bloke, bring him before the Bulgarian courts for an extradition hearing, and then extradite him in accordance with Bulgarian law. Perfectly routine, perfectly straightforward, not at all objectionable. And not to be compared with embassy officials themselves detaining someone, and trying to rush him out of the country under cover of their own diplomatic immunity.

ThreeLineWhip

They can ask the Australian government to extradite using the normal legal channels. They can't simply grab him because he set foot in the embassy.

Corkbah

Peregrinus wrote: »

Entirely different. In that case the Irish government are asking the Bulgarians to arrest this bloke, bring him before the Bulgarian courts for an extradition hearing, and then extradite him in accordance with Bulgarian law. Perfectly routine, perfectly straightforward, not at all objectionable. And not to be compared with embassy officials themselves detaining someone, and trying to rush him out of the country under cover of their own diplomatic immunity.

I'm not saying that ... if you re-read my posts I'm saying that :

if they government get an address for the OP (on request for renewal of passport), they can apply for an extradition (ie. for the OP to be sent home to Ireland).

I'm not suggesting that there would be some diplomatic cover up or diplomatic officials would kidnap the OP, they might arrange for the Oz police to be waiting for him to arrest him on foot of extradition warrant (or would you consider that to be an abuse by diplomatic personnel ??)

Dodge

Couple of things to clarify on how embassies work.

1) They can't issue passports without the HQ system. So if he applies, the application is fed into the central database. Some here think bench warrents show up on this. I'm not so sure

2) There's no gardai in 95% of embassies/consulates (including the 2 in Australia - Canberra/Sydney).

A visa/right to remain stamp would only be issued for up a month before the passport's expiry date. So my own guess is that the OP is illegal in Australia if his/her passport is due to expire

ThreeLineWhip

Corkbah wrote: »

I'm not saying that ... if you re-read my posts I'm saying that :

if they government get an address for the OP (on request for renewal of passport), they can apply for an extradition (ie. for the OP to be sent home to Ireland).

I'm not suggesting that there would be some diplomatic cover up or diplomatic officials would kidnap the OP, they might arrange for the Oz police to be waiting for him to arrest him on foot of extradition warrant (or would you consider that to be an abuse by diplomatic personnel ??)

So keep him in the embassy having numerous cups of tea while an extradition request is being prepared?

Corkbah

ThreeLineWhip wrote: »

So keep him in the embassy having numerous cups of tea while an extradition request is being prepared?

seriously ... !!! .. why do I bother responding ?

when a person applies for a passport while abroad, they must either give an address or collect in embassy, a passport is not just printed up and given out straight away.

IN THIS CASE ... when the person applies if the officials spot the outstanding warrant they inform the government officials here (Ireland) and then an extradition warrant is applied for....this can take as little as an hour or two, simply a matter of going to duty judge and getting them to endorse the warrant.

Warrant is then sent or brought to the country involved and person is arrested and deported (or in Ireland they can challenge the warrant which simply just delays things)