The Line Between Religious Belief And Mental Illness

SebBerkovich · 07-01-2013 5:10pm #1

By now you guys have probably seen this headline
"Mother jailed for life for beating son to death for not learning Qur'an"

The Guardian describes how her excuse is that...

"She claimed she had been urged on by the devil and bad spirits. At one point she believed the stick she used to punish her son was possessed by an evil spirit."

Now that had me wondering.. if she actually believes that these spirits did it, surly that means that she's suffering some serious delution and should probably be hospitalized rather than imprisoned!

When religion is concerned in crime, where is the line between mental ill and just "brainwashed"?
Edit: Guardian Artical: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/jan/07/mother-jailed-life-son-quran

Kidchameleon · 07-01-2013 5:33pm

Are atheists not capable of killing too?

SebBerkovich · 07-01-2013 5:36pm

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Are atheists not capable of killing too?

I of course am not implying that, i guess to simplify the question, if this women was not religious would she be committed or would this have happened at al?

Newaglish · 07-01-2013 5:39pm

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Are atheists not capable of killing too?

what

Kidchameleon · 07-01-2013 5:39pm

SebBerkovich wrote: »

I of course am not implying that, i guess to simplify the question, if this women was not religious would she be committed or would this have happened at al?

Well the fact that most people are religious and don't go around killing / getting commited would suggest not.

Obliq · 07-01-2013 5:42pm

SebBerkovich wrote: »

I of course am not implying that, i guess to simplify the question, if this women was not religious would she be committed or would this have happened at al?

Who can say? Religious or not, the lack of self control that leads someone to beat a child (at all, never mind to death) does not have to stem from either a mental health condition or an overly religious upbringing.

sink · 07-01-2013 5:50pm

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Are atheists not capable of killing too?

• - the point

you - •

Ghost Buster · 07-01-2013 5:56pm

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Are atheists not capable of killing too?

Other groups not mention by the Op include:
Post men
Chickens
Fashion designers
Spiritualists
Farmers.
X Factor Finalists

See in as these were not mentioned by the OP i take it that he is implying that none of these are capable of killing either......

condra · 07-01-2013 6:05pm

For me the distinction has to be made between cause/effect and coincidence.

Was the persons religion a factor in causing her to have psychiatric problems?

Were psychiatric problems a factor in causing this person to be religious?

Did this person just happen to be both religious, and psychotic. Perhaps if she was an atheist, it would have manifested itself as a voice in her head of some sort, not necessarily that of "The Devil".

I imagine it's fairly well documented that psychiatric conditions can cause delusion and hullucination which can manifest as spiritual/supernatural experiences.

Personally, I'm more worried about the sane religious people than the insane ones. Delusion and sanity are not mutially exclusive.

MrPudding · 07-01-2013 6:10pm

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Well the fact that most people are religious and don't go around killing / getting commited would suggest not.

KC, if you could direct your eye skyward you might just see a small dot way, way up there, moving fast. That is the point. You appear to have missed it.

MrP

MrPudding · 07-01-2013 6:16pm

condra wrote: »

For me the distinction has to be made between cause/effect and coincidence.

Was the persons religion a factor in causing her to have psychiatric problems?

Were psychiatric problems a factor in causing this person to be religious?

Did this person just happen to be both religious, and psychotic. Perhaps if she was an atheist, it would have manifested itself as a voice in her head of some sort, not necessarily that of "The Devil".

I imagine it's fairly well documented that psychiatric conditions can cause delusion and hullucination which can manifest as spiritual/supernatural experiences.

Personally, I'm more worried about the sane religious people than the insane ones. Delusion and sanity are not mutially exclusive.

I think this is exactly the issue. Unless one actually claims to be Jesus then there is no mental illness assumed with any relioguous beleif, however idiotic.

What I am trying to say, I suppose, is that is a person is simply psychotic then they are likely to be found as such. If they are psychotic and religious then there seems to be less willingness to find them insane.

Even quite tamely religious people can often tell stories that, were it not for the religious element, might actually get them sectioned.

MrP

Obliq · 07-01-2013 6:24pm

MrPudding wrote: »

......a person is simply psychotic then they are likely to be found as such. If they are psychotic and religious then there seems to be less willingness to find them insane.
MrP

Wow....do you really think that's the case? If a person is psychotic, then they'll be found as such, but they are more likely to be found as "overly religious" (for want of better term) if they happen to be psychotic AND religious??? Holy crap :eek::eek:

brandnewaward · 07-01-2013 6:29pm

this is mental illness , but dead funny..................https://www.facebook.com/BanWeed

MagicMarker · 07-01-2013 6:31pm

There's definitely one or two posters from "over there" that I would consider having a mental illness... Not mentioning any names of course.

MrPudding · 07-01-2013 7:48pm

Obliq wrote: »

Wow....do you really think that's the case? If a person is psychotic, then they'll be found as such, but they are more likely to be found as "overly religious" (for want of better term) if they happen to be psychotic AND religious??? Holy crap :eek::eek:

What do you think psychotic is? Not meaning to teach my grandmother to suck eggs, but psychotic is different from psychopathic, in case you think that is what I mean. I am using psychotic in the sense of someone suffering from delusions or having had a break form reality.

If you think about it, it would be very easy to say that someone deeply religious is suffering from some manner of delusion. Generally, if invisible entities are talking to you on a regular basis this would be an indication that something is wrong. However, if the entity talking to you is your god then, unless (usually) he is telling you to kill someone, you will probably be ok. We live in a developed and not particularly superstitious part of the world, yet most people don't blink when someone tells them god speaks to them.

If you go to the doctor and tell him, in passing, that you hear voices, not gods, you are likely to get locked up. In fact, there was an interesting experiment years ago (back in the "golden" days of psychology when they did not have to bother with ethics committees) where a number of students went to there doctors and complained of hearing voices. The idea was to get commited and once in the institution behave completely normally. It is a slight digression, but quite funny. Not one of the student was actually mentally ill, but they were all kept for longer than expected and were released as "schizophrenia in remission." Whilst they were in the institution they were told to take notes. Several of them had comments like "displays obsessive writing behaviour" in their notes.

Anyway, the point is, if you go to the doctor and happen to mention you have regular conversations with god you are not likely to end up in an institution.

Additionally, there are varying degrees of psychosis. Clearly the woman in the op was somewhere in the batsh1t region. People with a milder psychosis, or that don't act in socially unacceptable ways will probably be left alone.

I genuinely believe that some of the posters on the other forum are genuinely mentally ill. Not all of them, and in fact only a couple of them. But I genuinely believe they are mentally ill. I think it is unfortunate that their particular illness is related to religion as I believe it is preventing them from getting the help they need.

MrP

Obliq · 07-01-2013 8:14pm

MrPudding wrote: »

What do you think psychotic is? Not meaning to teach my grandmother to suck eggs, but psychotic is different from psychopathic, in case you think that is what I mean. I am using psychotic in the sense of someone suffering from delusions or having had a break form reality.

If you think about it, it would be very easy to say that someone deeply religious is suffering from some manner of delusion. Generally, if invisible entities are talking to you on a regular basis this would be an indication that something is wrong. However, if the entity talking to you is your god then, unless (usually) he is telling you to kill someone, you will probably be ok. We live in a developed and not particularly superstitious part of the world, yet most people don't blink when someone tells them god speaks to them.

If you go to the doctor and tell him, in passing, that you hear voices, not gods, you are likely to get locked up. In fact, there was an interesting experiment years ago (back in the "golden" days of psychology when they did not have to bother with ethics committees) where a number of students went to there doctors and complained of hearing voices. The idea was to get commited and once in the institution behave completely normally. It is a slight digression, but quite funny. Not one of the student was actually mentally ill, but they were all kept for longer than expected and were released as "schizophrenia in remission." Whilst they were in the institution they were told to take notes. Several of them had comments like "displays obsessive writing behaviour" in their notes.

Anyway, the point is, if you go to the doctor and happen to mention you have regular conversations with god you are not likely to end up in an institution.

Additionally, there are varying degrees of psychosis. Clearly the woman in the op was somewhere in the batsh1t region. People with a milder psychosis, or that don't act in socially unacceptable ways will probably be left alone.

I genuinely believe that some of the posters on the other forum are genuinely mentally ill. Not all of them, and in fact only a couple of them. But I genuinely believe they are mentally ill. I think it is unfortunate that their particular illness is related to religion as I believe it is preventing them from getting the help they need.

MrP

You're indeed not teaching your Granny! My disbelief about the difference in treatment is based on the experience of friends over the years. The part I have bolded in your comment is what I don't hold to be true at all (unless you have proof?). I don't think I've ever questioned/disagreed with you before Mr. P, but I am on this one.

I actually have 2 friends who have visited psych wards for hearing the voice of God in their heads (tellingly, it was not the same voice!).

The first took an acid trip in his teens and promptly got medicated to the hilt to dispel the multitude of angels and God telling him how to conduct his business. After a number of years of institutes and family prayers, he finally found his own balance of self-medication (I don't recommend this, although I reckon he's as good now as any other genuine schizophrenics that I've worked with who had no religious leanings) and continues to periodically freak people out/charm them with his musings. Very Catholic family, denial that he had social problems until no longer deniable.

The second took many trips on many substances, moved country and promptly got arrested/institutionalised/medicated for believing he actually WAS Jesus Christ. In this, he was harmless (ie. non-violent) but it was an entirely predictable manifestation of mental illness as 2 of his aunts were nuns, an uncle a priest, his father died (his only sensible rock in a church ridden family) and the family response to his illness was to do multiple novenas for him. He's alright now, poor pet.

What I'm trying to say here is that, yes - I agree that there are one or two on t'other forum that may have recognisable symptoms of mental health difficulties, but they (religious bias or not) do not show the kind of impulse control deficit that the woman described in the OP had. It's not the same kettle of fish, even if all these examples are essentially about religion in some way.

Dades · 07-01-2013 8:42pm

Surely anyone beating or starving a child to death has a mental illness.

Would they have found some other catalyst to do something awful? Quite possibly. Granted it doesn't help when you have fundies shouting stuff at you over the pulpit about faith and being tested, etc.

MrPudding · 07-01-2013 8:55pm

Obliq wrote: »

You're indeed not teaching your Granny! My disbelief about the difference in treatment is based on the experience of friends over the years. The part I have bolded in your comment is what I don't hold to be true at all (unless you have proof?). I don't think I've ever questioned/disagreed with you before Mr. P, but I am on this one.

I actually have 2 friends who have visited psych wards for hearing the voice of God in their heads (tellingly, it was not the same voice!).

The first took an acid trip in his teens and promptly got medicated to the hilt to dispel the multitude of angels and God telling him how to conduct his business. After a number of years of institutes and family prayers, he finally found his own balance of self-medication (I don't recommend this, although I reckon he's as good now as any other genuine schizophrenics that I've worked with who had no religious leanings) and continues to periodically freak people out/charm them with his musings. Very Catholic family, denial that he had social problems until no longer deniable.

The second took many trips on many substances, moved country and promptly got arrested/institutionalised/medicated for believing he actually WAS Jesus Christ. In this, he was harmless (ie. non-violent) but it was an entirely predictable manifestation of mental illness as 2 of his aunts were nuns, an uncle a priest, his father died (his only sensible rock in a church ridden family) and the family response to his illness was to do multiple novenas for him. He's alright now, poor pet.

What I'm trying to say here is that, yes - I agree that there are one or two on t'other forum that may have recognisable symptoms of mental health difficulties, but they (religious bias or not) do not show the kind of impulse control deficit that the woman described in the OP had. It's not the same kettle of fish, even if all these examples are essentially about religion in some way.

Well, your first friend's experience is clearly not the same as someone finding god and having conversations with him. It is a substance induced psychotic break. Your second friend is the exception I already mentioned. His claim to be jesus is considered to be untrue, plus, hos psychosis is also possibly substance related.

So, I am quite happy that your two examples can fit in quite comfortably with what I said as they are easily distinguished from a bog standard religious person that has not had a (known) substance abuse psychotic break and is not claiming to be Jesus.

Think of some of the super religious people you have met or interacted with on these boards even. Are you telling me there aren't a couple that you think might be a couple of laps short of a grand prix...?

MrP

Zombrex · 07-01-2013 9:07pm

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Well the fact that most people are religious and don't go around killing / getting commited would suggest not.

I think you are missing the point.

Because being deeply religious is viewed in society as a virtue mental problems can go unnoticed or excused.

Religion is full of crazy things being held up as virtuous or things to aspire to. Just pop over to the Christianity forum and ask them what do they think of someone who decides to go their entire life without having sex, or someone who decides to enter a monastery and remain silent for years on end. I would imagine they would say it is great, getting "closer to God"

Obliq · 07-01-2013 9:11pm

Yes, there are a few, as I said. I was really only answering your assertion that someone suffering from a religiously based psychosis is not as likely to be locked up as someone with any other sort. I don't believe that to be true (in my experience only).

There's so many borderline folk, who are indeed a few screws short of a shelving unit, but haven't presented with a "psychotic break" yet, and may never. It doesn't matter whether they spout on about angels, dream-catchers, auras or Jesus Christ - they all are (just) within the acceptable boundaries of what is socially ok, and what is a social problem (requiring treatment - the criteria for this being based on social norms).

They are all distinguished though, from someone who doesn't at all find their self-control in relation to other people obeying their wishes - ie. small child not doing what they're instructed.

Gordon · 07-01-2013 9:13pm

One thing I've never understood about god people is the voice of god/mental illness/psychotic episode thing. If you believe in god, and rest upon built up centuries of impacted lines of reasoning, wars battled, billions and billions of moneys and masses of land given to this religion - why is hearing god, or acting upon the words of god in your head wrong?

We all know that if someone starts hearing god speak in their head: there's something wrong, but even religious people think this don't they? If someone kills someone because they were told to do this by god, why do religious people have a problem with it? Why don't they accept it as the word of god? Do they not believe that god speaks to people? The bible is a brutal murder & rapefest, so it's not unlikely that god would tell people to go and slaughter and rape someone, so why not believe these psychotic murderers?

Obliq · 07-01-2013 9:19pm

There's a very fine line between a visionary and a problem for society!

Gordon · 07-01-2013 9:21pm

Obliq wrote: »

There's a very fine line between a visionary and a problem for society!

Isn't that always the case!

But how does religion differentiate? Does it use science to prove psychosis?

recedite · 07-01-2013 9:23pm

Obliq wrote: »

What I'm trying to say here is that, yes - I agree that there are one or two on t'other forum that may have recognisable symptoms of mental health difficulties, but they (religious bias or not) do not show the kind of impulse control deficit that the woman described in the OP had. It's not the same kettle of fish, even if all these examples are essentially about religion in some way.

IMO the dangerous thing about religion is that the "normal" people often fail to hold back the "crazies" and can even encourage them.
For example it is considered a virtue to talk every night, even aloud, to the god.
One bat$hit crazy sermon I heard a few times involves a loon called Abraham, one of the founding fathers, who hears a voice telling him to drag his son up a mountain, and slit the kids throat with a knife. He agrees, and thus he passes this test of his faith.

Obliq · 07-01-2013 9:33pm

Gordon wrote: »

Isn't that always the case!

But how does religion differentiate? Does it use science to prove psychosis?

Do you know, I don't think anyone does, and religion (these days maybe) doesn't differentiate. The general criteria for "getting help" if you can get it, is when a person's actions become a "problem" socially - for other people. One person's problem is another person's "ah sure, he's grand when he doesn't talk to people". It's all subjective IMO, and a psychiatrist will push a number of buttons in the form of questions that determine whether the person knows what they're doing (to others) or not. Psychology is not a "hard" science, is it?

I'm no expert, mark you..

Obliq · 07-01-2013 9:35pm

recedite wrote: »

IMO the dangerous thing about religion is that the "normal" people often fail to hold back the "crazies" and can even encourage them.
For example it is considered a virtue to talk every night, even aloud, to the god.
One bat$hit crazy sermon I heard a few times involves a loon called Abraham, one of the founding fathers, who hears a voice telling him to drag his son up a mountain, and slit the kids throat with a knife. He agrees, and thus he passes this test of his faith.

I've never heard of this (encouraging the crazies by religious people) these days. Have you an example from within the last 100 years?!

recedite · 07-01-2013 10:01pm

Obliq wrote: »

I've never heard of this (encouraging the crazies by religious people) these days. Have you an example from within the last 100 years?!

I have heard this sermon a few times, and I'm less than 100 yrs old.

Kidchameleon · 07-01-2013 10:07pm

Zombrex wrote: »

I think you are missing the point.

Because being deeply religious is viewed in society as a virtue mental problems can go unnoticed or excused.

Religion is full of crazy things being held up as virtuous or things to aspire to. Just pop over to the Christianity forum and ask them what do they think of someone who decides to go their entire life without having sex, or someone who decides to enter a monastery and remain silent for years on end. I would imagine they would say it is great, getting "closer to God"

Each to their own. Doesn't make them mental. Would you consider someone who smokes 20 fags a day mental aswell?

Sarky · 07-01-2013 10:09pm

Addiction is often psychological. Please learn more about mental illness before you start being glib and dismissive about it. It's horrendously insulting.

Kidchameleon · 07-01-2013 10:22pm

Sarky wrote: »

Addiction is often psychological. Please learn more about mental illness before you start being glib and dismissive about it. It's horrendously insulting.

My brother suffers from depression. Serious depression. I have been in and out of hospital with him all my life. I practically lived in the psychiatric unit of Tallaght hospital during 2010. Used to play pool and table tennis with some of the patients, got to know a few of the doctors and nurses. Which means I know quite a bit about mental illness. Please don't assume you know more about mental illness than someone you never met. Its not really insulting.

Sarky · 07-01-2013 10:33pm

So we won't see you throwing words like "mental" around in a derogatory manner again, then?

Newaglish · 07-01-2013 11:09pm

Kidchameleon wrote: »

My brother suffers from depression. Serious depression. I have been in and out of hospital with him all my life. I practically lived in the psychiatric unit of Tallaght hospital during 2010. Used to play pool and table tennis with some of the patients, got to know a few of the doctors and nurses.

bit of a jump to

Which means I know quite a bit about mental illness.

Also, there's a certain amount of irony in the part below:

Please don't assume you know more about mental illness than someone you never met.

Its not really insulting.

Well that's OK then.

RDM_83 again · 08-01-2013 12:55am

I know its not the direct discussion here, however both atheists/non-religious and "believers" have a similar rate of mental illness, with those that are spiritual but non formally religious having the highest rates. In the US I think a lot of studies show a positive benefit to religious belief.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/9774259/Spiritual-people-at-higher-risk-of-mental-health-problems.html

King MB, Marston L, McManus S, Brugha T, Metzer H,
Bebbington P (2012). Religion, spirituality and mental health:
Results from a national study of English households. British
Journal of Psychiatr

(I think this is the right paper!)

MagicMarker · 08-01-2013 7:40am

I used to play tiddlywinks with a pilot, now I know how to fly.

Obliq · 08-01-2013 8:41am

Magicmarker - That's not a clever analogy for what kidchameleon has experienced. He said:

"My brother suffers from depression. Serious depression. I have been in and out of hospital with him all my life. I practically lived in the psychiatric unit of Tallaght hospital during 2010. Used to play pool and table tennis with some of the patients, got to know a few of the doctors and nurses. Which means I know quite a bit about mental illness"

Anyone else ever met the residents of a psychiatric unit over a long period of time? So far, me and kidchameleon. Anyone else?

In MY book, that makes him qualified to say he knows quite a bit about mental illness. Not a lot, but quite a bit

I'm sure he won't make the mistake of using the word "mental" again, unless in the context of "mental health" or "mental illness". Magicmarker, Newaglish and Sarky - Lets not crucify the fella over it.

Kidchameleon · 08-01-2013 10:18am

Obliq they are just clutching at straws anyhow so I'm not worried.

Obliq · 08-01-2013 10:19am

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Obliq they are just clutching at straws anyhow so I'm not worried.

And now you're rising them. On yer own now buddy! :rolleyes:

SebBerkovich · 08-01-2013 10:30am

Getting back to the point...
Just a thought, if the women in question was from a less well established faith like.. a Satanist or something, (i imagine they believe in evil spirits) would THAT have been enough to perhaps have ensured she'd been given a pretty intense psychological evaluation ?

Obliq · 08-01-2013 10:41am

SebBerkovich wrote: »

Getting back to the point...
Just a thought, if the women in question was from a less well established faith like.. a Satanist or something, (i imagine they believe in evil spirits) would THAT have been enough to perhaps have ensured she'd been given a pretty intense psychological evaluation ?

Good point, but I don't see that she'd have been saying anything different. "She claimed she had been urged on by the devil and bad spirits. At one point she believed the stick she used to punish her son was possessed by an evil spirit."

Don't satanists and christians essentially believe in the same stuff?!

SebBerkovich · 08-01-2013 10:48am

Obliq wrote: »

Good point, but I don't see that she'd have been saying anything different. "She claimed she had been urged on by the devil and bad spirits. At one point she believed the stick she used to punish her son was possessed by an evil spirit."

Don't satanists and christians essentially believe in the same stuff?!

Yup, but the fact that Christianity/Islam is much better established, their particular claim of spirits seem to generally been given more clout. while of course for a less established faiths they would more readily be seen as madness.

MrPudding · 08-01-2013 10:48am

RDM_83 again wrote: »

I know its not the direct discussion here, however both atheists/non-religious and "believers" have a similar rate of mental illness, with those that are spiritual but non formally religious having the highest rates. In the US I think a lot of studies show a positive benefit to religious belief.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/9774259/Spiritual-people-at-higher-risk-of-mental-health-problems.html

King MB, Marston L, McManus S, Brugha T, Metzer H,
Bebbington P (2012). Religion, spirituality and mental health:
Results from a national study of English households. British
Journal of Psychiatr

(I think this is the right paper!)

Again, this is kind of the point. I have not read the study yet, but I presume that it does not class religious beliefs themselves as an indication of mental illness...?

If certain religious beliefs, either because of particular tenants of the belief or strength of the belief, were considered to be delusional what effect do you think that would have on the figures?

MrP

Zombrex · 08-01-2013 2:38pm

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Each to their own. Doesn't make them mental. Would you consider someone who smokes 20 fags a day mental aswell?

No I would consider them to have an addiction to cigs. Even if it was part of their religion I would still say they do it because of an addiction to cigs. I wouldn't say they are just a devoted worshipper of the Church of Tobacco.

You again seem to be missing the point. People do things due to underlying problems but then justify it by appealing to religion, and this is not investigated because doing things for religious reasons is considered a virtue.

Imagine if in your family someone was a hoarder, they never threw anything away and their house was full of junk and disease. Normally you would say that they have a problem, that they need help.

But then they say well actually it is part of their religion, and they don't have a problem, they are just "devoted". Then all of a sudden society goes "Oh well, being devoted to a religion is a good thing".

swampgas · 08-01-2013 2:44pm

Zombrex wrote: »

Imagine if in your family someone was a horder, they never threw anything away and their house was full of junk and disease. Normally you would say that they have a problem, that they need help.

* swampgas shifts uneasily amidst his hoard *

Bannasidhe · 08-01-2013 3:55pm

swampgas wrote: »

* swampgas shifts uneasily amidst his hoard *

Bannasidhe wonders when OH is going to notice that much of her hoard of jackets and shoes are currently 'in storage' in the nearest V de P shop and not in Bannasidhe's wardrobe where she thinks they are...

Obliq · 08-01-2013 5:54pm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Bannasidhe wonders when OP is going to notice that much of her hoard of jackets and shoes are currently 'in storage' in the nearest V de P shop and not in Bannasidhe's wardrobe where she thinks they are...

Ooh! Is there going to be an online domestic? Now where did I put that popcorn gif......:rolleyes:

Bannasidhe · 08-01-2013 5:58pm

Obliq wrote: »

Ooh! Is there going to be an online domestic? Now where did I put that popcorn gif......:rolleyes:

Nah - I meant OH but said OP by mistake then wondered off (to clear out more shoes that are not mine but are in my wardrobe

)...at least I think not ...

She could be a lurker :eek::eek:

Obliq · 08-01-2013 5:59pm

Ha! Damn, I thought that would be fun. Actual OP is probably male anyway?

recedite · 08-01-2013 6:43pm

Its safe to come back now OP, your shoes are still in the wardrobe.

The Line Between Religious Belief And Mental Illness

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