Are most people non racist in public but actually racist in private.

old hippy · 04-01-2013 06:18PM

crockholm wrote: »

Biko and mandela were being oppressed in their own country.
you can be damn sure that they were tough as nails to put up with what they did,
im not going to go to the union, I just take the pee out of the aboriginals instead
no harm done

And a lot of Irish people (of different race/religious belief/culture) are oppressed or at the least, discriminated in their own country.

Which reminds me. This; from freelance writer Peter McGuire

It's always a one-way conversation in Ireland. The dismissive cry of "PC brigade" - as though political correctness is a cursed nuisance that stops us from being abusive to vulnerable people - rings out any time a "bleeding heart liberal" points out the systematic discrimination, vilification, and poverty endured by Travellers, and the conversation immediately turns to what Travellers must do in order for the settled community to accept them: they must be free of any taint of crime, the tiny minority of wealthy Travellers must all pay their taxes, Traveller gang feuds must end, and the problem of domestic violence must be curtailed. Although, amazingly, the same problems have also been recorded amongst many settled people, these are indeed serious problems across certain sections of the Travelling community.

However, if a Traveller commits a crime, the settled community wails that the entire Travelling community are somehow collectively responsible.

crockholm · 04-01-2013 07:31PM

ok

05-01-2013 10:14AM

old hippy wrote: »

Most of the time I just let it go but if someone insults my wife or any other family member, I usually remonstrate with them. I'd rather tackle ignorance, in all honesty.

Letting it go unchecked or pretending it doesn't happen feeds the problem, I believe.

For example, some people start or join in threads and bandy about all manner of bile and offensive comments in order to get a rise or laugh. But left unchallenged, they are a green light for others who will agree with what they're saying. They, I believe, are the one's who are the "private" racists. The one's who haven't the balls to say it in public but are very much against people who's skin colour etc differ from our own. You'll occasionally see them thanking an offensive post without ever saying what exactly they "think".

I commend your intentions, I really do, even though you'd probably disagree with me on most things.

A bit off topic but aren't you a form of "thought police"?

I know racism is not symmetrical, and that's why I think you'll never ever get rid of it. It goes against human nature to be completely oblivious to visual differences in how we look.

We all make assumptions, no matter what colour our skin is.

Noel Kinsella · 07-01-2013 10:21AM

WileyCoyote wrote: »

When racism causes you to be discriminated against in attempting to gain employment, housing, access to state and public services, leads to being bullied verbally and/or physically assaulted then how is "chilling out" an option?

Has any of these things happened to you ? Would you share your experiences for the good of the group and for us all to gain better understanding ? I for one am interested in learning.

Death and Taxes · 07-01-2013 10:26AM

Noel Kinsella wrote: »

Has any of these things happened to you ? Would you share your experiences for the good of the group and for us all to gain better understanding ? I for one am interested in learning.

Whats your point? Are you suggesting that only those that have directly suffered racism are entitled to hold an opinion on it?

I have certainly witnessed racism in this country, I have seen people abused for the colour of their skin, or their eithic background.

Noel Kinsella · 07-01-2013 10:31AM

old hippy wrote: »

How do you deal when people abuse you because of where you come from or the colour of your skin or when you're spat at?

How do you feel when people make unpleasant remarks concerning your wife/husband's ethnicity?

Straight question old hippy, is there really racism against asians in Ireland ? or just the odd moron ? I have never come across it ever, I always thought asians were liked and respected here ? I have to tell you that other parts of Europe are different though I lived in Italy and the Italians have a hatred for the asians I brought some friends over there to a Chinese restaurant and they barley eat their food. I have been in several arguments in Italy over how they treat asians as I find it disgusting and dont understand it at all, Asians are some of the hardest workers on the planet and add to any economy in my opinion, they often work the hours or the jobs others dont want to. I just dont get it.

old hippy · 07-01-2013 01:26PM

Noel Kinsella wrote: »

Straight question old hippy, is there really racism against asians in Ireland ? or just the odd moron ? I have never come across it ever, I always thought asians were liked and respected here ? I have to tell you that other parts of Europe are different though I lived in Italy and the Italians have a hatred for the asians I brought some friends over there to a Chinese restaurant and they barley eat their food. I have been in several arguments in Italy over how they treat asians as I find it disgusting and dont understand it at all, Asians are some of the hardest workers on the planet and add to any economy in my opinion, they often work the hours or the jobs others dont want to. I just dont get it.

Depends on where you go & who you talk to. The South Africans of Indian descent I worked for in the 90's regularly encountered abuse, sometimes behind their backs or to their faces. They would have come under the general umbrella description of "Asian" and indeed called themselves "Asian" as well as "South African". We once had a nice big swastika painted outside the shop.

East Asians, yeah, we had moments where people would come out with clangers or be downright hostile. I met people who would use the term "japs", "chinks", "slopes" and "slitty eyed" which some people may just shrug their shoulders over but there's no need for that. No need at all.

Is it widespread? I guess I noticed it more, having had these friends, colleagues and eventual partner. If you don't socialise or work with Asians, East Asians it may go un-noticed.

old hippy · 07-01-2013 01:32PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I commend your intentions, I really do, even though you'd probably disagree with me on most things.

A bit off topic but aren't you a form of "thought police"?

I know racism is not symmetrical, and that's why I think you'll never ever get rid of it. It goes against human nature to be completely oblivious to visual differences in how we look.

We all make assumptions, no matter what colour our skin is.

Yes, we all make assumptions, a lot of the time erroneously but that shouldn't be based on someone's skin colour.

As for "thought police"; here's where my assumptions kick in. Someone "brand new" to the boards, comes on and immediately starts making wild claims and vitriol against immigrants, people of a different skin colour and so forth. I assume they hold dodgy views, I assume some of them are returning repeat thread offenders and I assume that their agenda/obsession is so paramount to them that they will return again, to spout those views.

Wibbs · 07-01-2013 01:40PM

old hippy wrote: »

Which reminds me. This; from freelance writer Peter McGuire

It's always a one-way conversation in Ireland. The dismissive cry of "PC brigade" - as though political correctness is a cursed nuisance that stops us from being abusive to vulnerable people - rings out any time a "bleeding heart liberal" points out the systematic discrimination, vilification, and poverty endured by Travellers, and the conversation immediately turns to what Travellers must do in order for the settled community to accept them: they must be free of any taint of crime, the tiny minority of wealthy Travellers must all pay their taxes, Traveller gang feuds must end, and the problem of domestic violence must be curtailed. Although, amazingly, the same problems have also been recorded amongst many settled people, these are indeed serious problems across certain sections of the Travelling community.

However, if a Traveller commits a crime, the settled community wails that the entire Travelling community are somehow collectively responsible.

Certainly there is a lot of that prejudicial thinking going on, however gang feuds among the rest of society are significantly rarer, domestic violence is also the lesser*, as is general anti social behaviour, the list is long. So while the prejudice to an entire group** is indeed a blunt and ignorant instrument, one can understand why it's employed by many.

*I'll try an dig up a report into same, which found even the definitions of domestic abuse were very different among the group compared to wider society and an unreal amount of said abuse was ignored/went unreported.

** I say group as I don't buy the separate ethnic minority stuff. If they're a separate ethnic minority so are Dubliners or Corkonians or... The genetic "argument" is beyond risible.

old hippy · 07-01-2013 01:50PM

Wibbs wrote: »

Certainly there is a lot of that prejudicial thinking going on, however gang feuds among the rest of society are significantly rarer, domestic violence is also the lesser*, as is general anti social behaviour, the list is long. So while the prejudice to an entire group** is indeed a blunt and ignorant instrument, one can understand why it's employed by many.

*I'll try an dig up a report into same, which found even the definitions of domestic abuse were very different among the group compared to wider society and an unreal amount of said abuse was ignored/went unreported.

** I say group as I don't buy the separate ethnic minority stuff. If they're a separate ethnic minority so are Dubliners or Corkonians or... The genetic "argument" is beyond risible.

I'm still undecided about that. I know some in Pavee are adamant they are a separate people - certainly socially, at any rate - and who the hell am I to say otherwise?

Noel Kinsella · 07-01-2013 02:42PM

WileyCoyote wrote: »

Whats your point? Are you suggesting that only those that have directly suffered racism are entitled to hold an opinion on it?
I have certainly witnessed racism in this country, I have seen people abused for the colour of their skin, or their eithic background.

Did you call the Gardai or try to video the incidents on your phone ? Racism is illegal in Ireland by doing "nothing" it makes a person that does nothing almost as bad as the people being racist. I have not witnessed racism myself and dont believe it is as common as the "do gooders" would like us to believe. I am curious how you know so much on racism and would like to know more. Please elaborate.

Wibbs · 07-01-2013 03:02PM

old hippy wrote: »

I'm still undecided about that. I know some in Pavee are adamant they are a separate people - certainly socially, at any rate - and who the hell am I to say otherwise?

I dunno... facts? Bit strong I know, but there you go. I could claim "Jackeens" to be a separate ethnic minority. More likely to have norse/british/dutch genes, english speaking for longer and that flavour of english is different and many see themselves as different to "Culshies", clearly another ethnic group there too. I could claim it, but it would be utter nonsense.

Travelers are Irish, with some common familial markers because of narrower than average gene exchange(tho not by that much), with an advanced "slang" useful for group affiliation and exclusion of others. That's yer lot. On that basis Cockneys of London could claim "ethnic minority" status but it would be equally daft.

As for them being "separate", that's almost entirely their choice. Many travelers settled back in the day, quite the number still hold onto some of the traditions(which were mostly just rural traditions anyway), others didn't and just became Sean and Mary Citizen.

As for who the hell are you to say otherwise? Who the hell are they to claim it in the first place and on the back of such claims also claim some special status?

Death and Taxes · 07-01-2013 03:37PM

Noel Kinsella wrote: »

Did you call the Gardai or try to video the incidents on your phone ? Racism is illegal in Ireland by doing "nothing" it makes a person that does nothing almost as bad as the people being racist. I have not witnessed racism myself and dont believe it is as common as the "do gooders" would like us to believe. I am curious how you know so much on racism and would like to know more. Please elaborate.

I live in what has been described as Irelands most culturally diverse town, Balbriggan , so I have a lot of interaction with people of differing nationalities and races. My accountant is from Pakistan, my barber is from Iraq, my kids hang out and play football with kids whose parents are from Ghana, South Africa,Nigeria,Poland, Lithuania etc.
Nowithstanding all that, my primary degree includes Social Policy and as such I have studied Race and Ethnicity including under Ronit Lentin and Gokce Yurdakul.

07-01-2013 03:41PM

WileyCoyote wrote: »

I live in what has been described as Irelands most culturally diverse town, Balbriggan , so I have a lot of interaction with people of differing nationalities and races. My accountant is from Pakistan, my barber is from Iraq, my kids hang out and play football with kids whose parents are from Ghana, South Africa,Nigeria,Poland, Lithuania etc.
Nowithstanding all that, my primary degree includes Social Policy and as such I have studied Race and Ethnicity including under Ronit Lentin and Gokce Yurdakul.

Wiley, you're just a 'do gooder', shame on you!

Chinasea · 07-01-2013 07:56PM

Noel Kinsella wrote: »

Racism is illegal in Ireland by doing "nothing" it makes a person that does nothing almost as bad as the people being racist. I have not witnessed racism myself and dont believe it is as common as the "do gooders" would like us to believe. I am curious how you know so much on racism and would like to know more. Please elaborate.

Perhaps you missed two sample reports that were linked earlier in this thread that could perhaps aid your puzzelment and disbelief - posted in this thread #118 post - relevant section copied and pasted to assist:(

"Looking at the recent study carried out by the The Equality Authority and ESRI report December 2012 ‘Analysing the Experience of Discrimination in Ireland’ the findings are pretty shameful.

It clearly shows worrying trends in the wrong direction, and from an inherent nomadic nation who has had every opportunity to learn from failings in other countries towards its immigrants etc, the findings in this report are shambolic to say the least. There is no rose tinting of these facts sadly.

The report uncovers the fact that there has been in increase in “serious discrimination” against black people in Ireland. The Most Common Occasion for Discrimination was while seeking work". Sadly, The study is a follow up to a similar survey in 2004 and while there is relatively little change overall, there was a rise in serious discrimination: of those who reported discrimination, the percentage reporting that it had a serious effect on their lives increased from 25% in 2004 to 32% in 2010. The figures were based on an analysis of the Central Statistics Office’s Quarterly National Household Survey from 2010 which questioned people about their experiences of discrimination. “Discrimination remains an enormous challenge to Irish society," said Renee Dempsey, CEO of the Equality Author2012.

And again, a seperate report by The Immigrant Council of Ireland's preliminary figures for 2012 show an average of one serious racist attack per week.
http://www.sinnottsolicitors.ie/news/one-racist-incident-reported-each-week.html

Continuing with this shameful trend yet another very grim link: http://www.thejournal.ie/taxi-drivers-group-not-aware-of-racist-abuse-problem-320521-Jan2012/

And I could go on but not sure if there is any point if: a) you choose not to read them, b) choose not to believe them, c) so on, so on, so on..

A ma an da · 07-01-2013 08:36PM

Chinasea wrote: »

Perhaps you missed two sample reports that were linked earlier in this thread that could perhaps aid your puzzelment and disbelief - posted in this thread #118 post - relevant section copied and pasted to assist:(

"Looking at the recent study carried out by the The Equality Authority and ESRI report December 2012 ‘Analysing the Experience of Discrimination in Ireland’ the findings are pretty shameful.

It clearly shows worrying trends in the wrong direction, and from an inherent nomadic nation who has had every opportunity to learn from failings in other countries towards its immigrants etc, the findings in this report are shambolic to say the least. There is no rose tinting of these facts sadly.

The report uncovers the fact that there has been in increase in “serious discrimination” against black people in Ireland. The Most Common Occasion for Discrimination was while seeking work". Sadly, The study is a follow up to a similar survey in 2004 and while there is relatively little change overall, there was a rise in serious discrimination: of those who reported discrimination, the percentage reporting that it had a serious effect on their lives increased from 25% in 2004 to 32% in 2010. The figures were based on an analysis of the Central Statistics Office’s Quarterly National Household Survey from 2010 which questioned people about their experiences of discrimination. “Discrimination remains an enormous challenge to Irish society," said Renee Dempsey, CEO of the Equality Author2012.

And again, a seperate report by The Immigrant Council of Ireland's preliminary figures for 2012 show an average of one serious racist attack per week.
http://www.sinnottsolicitors.ie/news/one-racist-incident-reported-each-week.html

Continuing with this shameful trend yet another very grim link: http://www.thejournal.ie/taxi-drivers-group-not-aware-of-racist-abuse-problem-320521-Jan2012/

And I could go on but not sure if there is any point if: a) you choose not to read them, b) choose not to believe them, c) so on, so on, so on..

Shame shame shame

Death and Taxes · 07-01-2013 08:44PM

A ma an da wrote: »

Shame shame shame

WTF????

Noel Kinsella · 08-01-2013 09:40PM

The man in Clare deserved to go to prison, attacks like that should not go unpunished no normal person could condone that.

It goes both ways though, here is a link to what seems to be a race attack in Ireland by Blacks AGAINST whites
http://able2know.org/topic/138570-196

Is this story true it seems to come from the herald.ie ?

Racism is wrong 100%.

Chinasea wrote: »

Perhaps you missed two sample reports that were linked earlier in this thread that could perhaps aid your puzzelment and disbelief - posted in this thread #118 post - relevant section copied and pasted to assist:(

"Looking at the recent study carried out by the The Equality Authority and ESRI report December 2012 ‘Analysing the Experience of Discrimination in Ireland’ the findings are pretty shameful.

It clearly shows worrying trends in the wrong direction, and from an inherent nomadic nation who has had every opportunity to learn from failings in other countries towards its immigrants etc, the findings in this report are shambolic to say the least. There is no rose tinting of these facts sadly.

The report uncovers the fact that there has been in increase in “serious discrimination” against black people in Ireland. The Most Common Occasion for Discrimination was while seeking work". Sadly, The study is a follow up to a similar survey in 2004 and while there is relatively little change overall, there was a rise in serious discrimination: of those who reported discrimination, the percentage reporting that it had a serious effect on their lives increased from 25% in 2004 to 32% in 2010. The figures were based on an analysis of the Central Statistics Office’s Quarterly National Household Survey from 2010 which questioned people about their experiences of discrimination. “Discrimination remains an enormous challenge to Irish society," said Renee Dempsey, CEO of the Equality Author2012.

And again, a seperate report by The Immigrant Council of Ireland's preliminary figures for 2012 show an average of one serious racist attack per week.
http://www.sinnottsolicitors.ie/news/one-racist-incident-reported-each-week.html

Continuing with this shameful trend yet another very grim link: http://www.thejournal.ie/taxi-drivers-group-not-aware-of-racist-abuse-problem-320521-Jan2012/

And I could go on but not sure if there is any point if: a) you choose not to read them, b) choose not to believe them, c) so on, so on, so on..

Noel Kinsella · 08-01-2013 09:48PM

WileyCoyote wrote: »

I live in what has been described as Irelands most culturally diverse town, Balbriggan , so I have a lot of interaction with people of differing nationalities and races. My accountant is from Pakistan, my barber is from Iraq, my kids hang out and play football with kids whose parents are from Ghana, South Africa,Nigeria,Poland, Lithuania etc.
Nowithstanding all that, my primary degree includes Social Policy and as such I have studied Race and Ethnicity including under Ronit Lentin and Gokce Yurdakul.

Very impressive nice degree I do like your writing style while I do not always agree with your points. I would like to know "did you ever actually see racism ? were you around it at all ?" or is it just what you have read and heard.

UCDVet · 08-01-2013 09:51PM

I don't even know what 'racist' means any more...

If you acknowledge differences between races - you are a racist.
If you ignore differences and claim everyone is the same - you are a racist.

It sounds like everyone is racist to me.

Death and Taxes · 08-01-2013 09:59PM

Noel Kinsella wrote: »

Very impressive nice degree I do like your writing style while I do not always agree with your points. I would like to know "did you ever actually see racism ? were you around it at all ?" or is it just what you have read and heard.

I have answered that question for you before in posts 186 and post 194 of this thread (page 13 of the thread).

Death and Taxes · 08-01-2013 10:17PM

UCDVet wrote: »

I don't even know what 'racist' means any more...

If you acknowledge differences between races - you are a racist.
If you ignore differences and claim everyone is the same - you are a racist.

It sounds like everyone is racist to me.

No, if you discriminate negativley beacause of race or ethnicity you are racist. Its not difficult to understand. If you believe one race/ethnic group to be superior to another because of that racial/ethnic difference you are racist.

Noel Kinsella · 08-01-2013 10:24PM

WileyCoyote wrote: »

I have answered that question for you before in posts 186 and post 194 of this thread (page 13 of the thread).

I see that part now that you have seen people abused because of the colour of their skin. Nobody should be abused because of that. I am probably just very unlucky usually when I meet black people they are skipping me in the queue, robbing a parking space I have my indicator on for, hitting me with their shopping trolley, or in the case of my neighbour when I lived in another part of Dublin blocking my drive, shouting loud at the early hours of the morning, making sarcastic comments to people, in my case (tell your girlfriend I was asking for her) I could just go on and on to be honest. I have never had a nice experience with a black person I am just unlucky I guess. When I meet Asian/ Indian or any other nationalities they usually are holding a door for me being polite, friendly etc Much friendlier than lots of the Irish I must add. I probably come across quite strong at times but these are my experiences.

cosbloodymick · 08-01-2013 10:31PM

WileyCoyote wrote: »

No, if you discriminate negativley beacause of race or ethnicity you are racist. Its not difficult to understand. If you believe one race/ethnic group to be superior to another because of that racial/ethnic difference you are racist.

I agree with this 100%.
However I think people are wrongly labelled racist these days for just mentioning a persons colour and in no way discriminating against that person. How is calling somebody black who is black racist?
Paul McGrath was affectionately called the black pearl but this was not considered racist. But if you call someone a "black (insert abusive term)" then this is considered racist. Surely the offense is in the abusive term and not in the mention of race.
If someone calls me a clever Irish man thats OK, but if someone calls me a thick Irish man thats racist. The fact is I AM Irish. Its the word following Irish that is either offensive or not.

Death and Taxes · 08-01-2013 10:39PM

cosbloodymick wrote: »

I agree with this 100%.
However I think people are wrongly labelled racist these days for just mentioning a persons colour and in no way discriminating against that person. How is calling somebody black who is black racist?
Paul McGrath was affectionately called the black pearl but this was not considered racist. But if you call someone a "black (insert abusive term)" then this is considered racist. Surely the offense is in the abusive term and not in the mention of race.
If someone calls me a clever Irish man thats OK, but if someone calls me a thick Irish man thats racist. The fact is I AM Irish. Its the word following Irish that is either offensive or not.

It is racist if the clear or reasonable inference is that your being thick is related to or caused by your being Irish!

cosbloodymick · 08-01-2013 10:45PM

WileyCoyote wrote: »

It is racist if the clear or reasonable inference is that your being thick is related to or caused by your being Irish!

Then it must be racist if the clear or reasonable inference is that my being clever is related to or caused by my Irishness.
Yet in this example I am neither being discriminated against or abused because of my race which was the definition of racism by a previous poster?

Death and Taxes · 08-01-2013 10:58PM

cosbloodymick wrote: »

Then it must be racist if the clear or reasonable inference is that my being clever is related to or caused by my Irishness.
Yet in this example I am neither being discriminated against or abused because of my race which was the definition of racism by a previous poster?

I suppose context is everything!

aloyisious · 08-01-2013 11:04PM

Are most humans human and liable to have opinions they won't (mostly) express openly in public? yes.

08-01-2013 11:06PM

WileyCoyote wrote: »

No, if you discriminate negativley beacause of race or ethnicity you are racist. Its not difficult to understand. If you believe one race/ethnic group to be superior to another because of that racial/ethnic difference you are racist.

So saying anything other than the domination of black people in many physical pursuits is a massive statistical anomaly is racist?

cosbloodymick · 08-01-2013 11:13PM

WileyCoyote wrote: »

I suppose context is everything!

Yet if you call somebody who is black a "black (insert abusive term)" you can be prosecuted for racism. Yet you can highlight any other characteristic of a person and use that characteristic in an abusive fashion and you are not open to prosecution.
For instance calling someone a "Big nose or Baldy or Ginger (insert abusive term)" is permissable. Why is just highlighting skin colour a bigger deal than other characteristics? Shouldn't people abused in this fashion be accorded the same protection under the law as Black people?

Are most people non racist in public but actually racist in private.

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