Are most people non racist in public but actually racist in private.

Prometheus

There have been several elections in the US where black and white candidates have been neck and neck in opinion polls, but at the actual election, the white candidate has thrashed the black candidate. Which has to imply, if these polls are done correctly, that a large number of people questioned are lying. The book Freakanomics goes into details about actual elections for those interested.
It got me thinking are Irish people like that as well, do we put up the liberal compassionate face in front of our peers, but in reality are we racist?
From experience with friends, colleagues etc, I believe we are.

bluecode

Everyone is a little bit racist, xenophobic or whatever. It's actually human nature. Your own family, tribe, group or race are what's important to you.

It's really a question of whether you act on it. A racist is someone who thinks racism is a good thing.

MaxSteele

Well I wouldn't say most people, but at the moment I'd say the majority of people are to a degree.

HHobo

Science says YES!

Though not very in most cases, thankfully.
It's an ingroup - outgroup thing. Basically hardwired in us. As societies become more racially diverse children may begin to see other races as part of their ingroup natually and this particular ism might fall away.

summerskin

MaxSteele wrote: »

Well I wouldn't say most people, but at the moment I'd say the majority of people are to a degree.

WTF?????

The Dagda

Well I'm not a racialist, but...

doyle61

Imo everyone is racist in one form or other. Doesnt have to be the stereotype racism against blacks, other religions or gays etc but probe a bit and I think everyone has at least slight racist views. Me I'm racist against the "traveling community". I know I'm generalizing but imo they're always on the take with some scam or other and don't contribute to society (in a good way). Now just because I have these views doesnt mean I'm going to go out the door and bash the head off one. My idea of racism is would you be happy to see your son/daughter go out with someone from a community/background different from your own or for someone from a different background to move in next door and you to be happy about it.

MaxSteele

summerskin wrote: »

WTF?????

Yes.

hyperborean

In the privacy of my head I would discriminate against certain other groupings on instinct, but upon reflection I usually refrain from letting others know what it was I had thought as its usually just that> instinct. What makes us really human is reflection and opinion forming after analysis of things not instinct or acting on it by admiting instinctual prejudices.

old hippy

Racism and xenephobia is for people with limited imagination. Fear and ignorance often inform their views. To challenge this is not being "pc" or a "do gooder". It's simply that many of us wish to make hatred and discrimination a thing of the past.

summerskin

MaxSteele wrote: »

Well I wouldn't say most people, but at the moment I'd say the majority of people are to a degree.

MaxSteele wrote: »

Yes.

You do realise that majority means "most"(i.e. over half the subset, or population this case)??

The post makes no sense. You say the majority are racist, but don't think most are???????????

LostBoy101

Yes some people would be racist in private but are afraid to do so in public. It's just the way people think and nothing new.

MaxSteele

summerskin wrote: »

You do realise that majority means "most"(i.e. over half the subset, or population this case)??

The post makes no sense. You say the majority are racist, but don't think most are???????????

I only use most if 80+ % are in favor of something. I always assumed majority meant anything over 50%. Sorry for the confusion.

seamus

As said, we tend towards segregating ourselves for the benefit of our families and communities. I don't think humans are inherently racist, but in exercising our segregationism, we look for ways to distinguish those who aren't in our community from those who are.

And when it comes to looking for distinguishing features, there are few things easier to pick out than skin colour.

Removing racism is more something of a long-term game. There's still quite a large amount of racism against black people because for hundreds of years they were actively segregated and therefore not "one of us". It's only in recent times that this segregation has ended so while some people will still have some residual racism, in many countries it is no longer possible to separate "them" from "us" on the basis of skin color, hence why racism is quickly dying out.

Our children and grandchildren will be far less likely to judge someone based on skin colour, as they will grow up with and go to school with kids of all shapes and colours, so even their inbuilt segregationist tendencies won't view a black person as an outsider.

I think the question in the thread title itself is a little bit loaded. It implies that there's some kind of facade in public settings which hides an unapologetically malicious agenda.

I would be lying if I said that I don't immediately have preconceptions when I encounter someone "different", be they black, disabled, traveller, etc. It's a natural reflex of the mind, not something I have conscious control over.
The key is how you act (or don't act) on those preconceptions. I make the greatest effort to ignore whatever preconceptions have jumped to mind and treat the person as I would anyone else.

dd972

There might be a bell curve ranging from complete non racism to full on racism, though I think very few people though are ideologically racist. The whole nature of the issue and how it's dealt with evolves and morphs all the time.

Lollipops23

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbud8rLejLM

kowloon

For a lot of Irish people it would depend on whether Travellers are a race or not.
Personally I just keep with traditional forms of racism against the blacks and the Jews. Are women a race?

9959

MaxSteele wrote: »

Well I wouldn't say most people, but at the moment I'd say the majority of people are to a degree.

Where's your evidence for the above?
I sencerely hope that it's not wishful thinking.

Reekwind

I think that those who claim that everyone is racist to a degree are just trying to justify your own unpleasant views

Capt'n Midnight

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/07/heart-drug-makes-people-less-racist-study_n_1328122.html

Researchers in Britain have found that a common drug called propranolol does in fact change the hearts of those who take it. While effectively lowering blood pressure in heart disease patients, the medication was found to lower "implicit" racist attitudes as well.

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs00213-012-2657-5

Our results indicate that β-adrenoceptors play a role in the expression of implicit racial attitudes suggesting that noradrenaline-related emotional mechanisms may mediate negative racial bias.

crockholm

Yes, many in a personal capacity are racist,racism is a taboo. If a person were to be actively and openly part of a racist group,remaining in employment may become trickier and C.V.'s become more "interesting". People here are generally canny enough to preach to the converted within their own groups.
Is it exclusive to Ireland ? of course not. Or race for that matter, in the U.S.A. you can find many instances of minority voters,backing their candidate on a racial basis, I am sure aware ethnic Irish do in in cook county chicago.
Im just not sure what constitutes racism nowadays, if I notice that I enter an area that is predominantly black,I reverse, If I enter a chinatown somewhere,I don't.

bbam

I'm not surprised that the opinion is that most people are, somewhere inside, maybe we all are.
The true strength is in suppressing any bit that is there, this allows us to open our minds to countless experiences in life. There is great fun and interest in opening yourself up to another culture, challenging yourself to see life from another cultures perspective.
It's all too common for people to make judgments about other cultures without first making a true effort to understand it.

MaxSteele

9959 wrote: »

Where's your evidence for the above?
I sencerely hope that it's not wishful thinking.

From what I've seen and heard people like in public and in private. A lot of people are racist and non-racist when it suits them.

Micky Dolenz

I'd be more prejudiced then racist.

I'd like to think I treat people with equal disdain.

9959

MaxSteele wrote: »

From what I've seen and heard people like in public and in private. A lot of people are racist and non-racist when it suits them.

How would it suit someone to be racist?

MaxSteele

9959 wrote: »

How would it suit someone to be racist?

Well "non-racist" when it suits them I should say. i.e "I don't care if your black, white, yellow ..."

*Jump to Sunday morning* "Jaysus, not going back there anymore, place is full of blacks". I remember a particular nightclub in Dublin city which always had that kind of remark made about it every weekend on Facebook.

martingriff

Petca4 wrote: »

There have been several elections in the US where black and white candidates have been neck and neck in opinion polls, but at the actual election, the white candidate has thrashed the black candidate. Which has to imply, if these polls are done correctly, that a large number of people questioned are lying. The book Freakanomics goes into details about actual elections for those interested.
It got me thinking are Irish people like that as well, do we put up the liberal compassionate face in front of our peers, but in reality are we racist?
From experience with friends, colleagues etc, I believe we are.

Barack Obama would disagree here

To your question the answer is No. AS they might say something against someone of a different colour sexuality or religion they may not mean it for all people of the race/sexuality/religion but by todays definition it is racism

pabloh999

doyle61 wrote: »

Imo everyone is racist in one form or other. Doesnt have to be the stereotype racism against blacks, other religions or gays etc but probe a bit and I think everyone has at least slight racist views. Me I'm racist against the "traveling community". I know I'm generalizing but imo they're always on the take with some scam or other and don't contribute to society (in a good way). Now just because I have these views doesnt mean I'm going to go out the door and bash the head off one. My idea of racism is would you be happy to see your son/daughter go out with someone from a community/background different from your own or for someone from a different background to move in next door and you to be happy about it.

Cos you'd get yer head kicked in boss..

Gauss

The white man fears the black man's pendulous genitalia. This is where racism stems from.

fonecrusher1

The Dagda wrote: »

Well I'm not a racialist, but...

.... I hate all them smelly fardeners.:mad:

Oranage2

What's the big deal about being racist anyway its hardly a crime!

Chuck Stone

bluecode wrote: »

Everyone is a little bit racist, xenophobic or whatever. It's actually human nature.

Human nature to be racist/xenophobic?

HHobo wrote: »

Science says YES!

It does?

Any ol' peer reviewed studies on this lads because I was under the impression that racism and xenophobia are learned (and indeed unlearned).

Actually, it's well accepted that racism and xenophobia can be 'unlearned' which creates an axiom, of sorts, that they had to be learned in the first place and, thus, are not natural states.

Gauss

I believe in live and let live. If someone wants to hate one particular section of society that's their own business so long as they don't harm anyone.

Annasopra

Oranage2 wrote: »

What's the big deal about being racist anyway its hardly a crime!

Certain types of racism are

Racist hate crime (not in Ireland)
Racist incitement to violence
Racist discrimination

Lollipops23

I don't think it's a racial issue as such-the colour of people's skin means diddly squat to me, but if someone is from a certain part of the world it will make me more aware of the cultural discrepencies that might appear between us.

The fact is, I base my assumptions (wrong or right) on my prior experience with a certain nationality. I understand entirely why Oz or New Zealand must be getting pissed off with the Irish pissheads who keep causing problems for them, but the fact is it's happening and colouring their impression of our culture.

Chuck Stone

Gauss wrote: »

I believe in live and let live. If someone wants to hate one particular section of society that's their own business so long as they don't harm anyone.

Yes. As long as their hatred stays inside their brain then that's fine.

The problem is that this is rarely the case; they tend to infect children and peers with their hate and actively/passively discriminate against those they hate which is not okay at all.

HHobo

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Human nature to be racist/xenophobic?



It does?

Any ol' peer reviewed studies on this lads because I was under the impression that racism and xenophobia are learned (and indeed unlearned).

Actually, it's well accepted that racism and xenophobia can be 'unlearned' which creates an axiom, of sorts, that they had to be learned in the first place and, thus, are not natural states.

So what if it is learned? Tieing your shoelaces is also learned. It doesn't alter the fact that the vast majority tie their shoelaces. Ingroup - outgroup thinking is natural, evident in other primate species. Racism is coonsidered a type of this thinking.

Also, self preservation and the preservation of close family relatives are the strongest instincts we have. People kill their family members and themseleves. Presuming this must be learned and self-preservation, family-preservation unlearned, then by your logic, self-preservation and the preservation of family members is not a natural state.

Why do you assume that learning over coming instinct must indicate the initial impulse cannot be instinctual?

There have been studies done. I honestly couldn't be bothered finding them. Give it a solid googling and you'll find them.

Higher

Gauss wrote: »

The white man fears the black man's pendulous genitalia. This is where racism stems from.

Think someone posted up a World chart on here awhile back. It turns out the Hungarian man has the biggest followed by the Colombians. I think it said Irish have the smallest in Europe as well (but then again the study was done in Galway not in Dublin where we have all have massive schlongs)

HHobo

HHobo wrote: »

Racism is coonsidered a type of this thinking.

ack! Now that is a an embarrasing typo. .....:eek:....:o!

token101

I actually think the opposite of the OPs contention is true in a lot of cases as well. You hear a lot of bull**** from people talking in public about Polish taking jobs, Nigerians coming for welfare, etc, etc, but I think a lot of that is pure frustration at how things have turned out and how powerless people are to help themselves. At a guess, I would imagine less than 10% of the people that actually say these things genuinely believe it. Deep down lots, if not most, of these people know that the Polish haven't taken their jobs and aren't at fault, they're just lashing out at anyone who's an easy target. Is it acceptable? No, but it's understandable to an extent and simply mass branding people bigoted idiots is hardly going to make them see the light, it's just going to embolden them even more.

jmayo

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

I'd be more prejudiced then racist.

I'd like to think I treat people with equal disdain.

Agree.

BTW I think a lot of people are nimbys.
And in Ireland this has historically been about travellers.
Everyone is pro halting site until it is at the end of their road.

I think the movie "Guess Who's Coming to Dinner" might sum up the attitude of a lot of people when push comes to shove.

Chuck Stone

HHobo wrote: »

So what if it is learned?

You said racism and xenophobia is natural. If it's leaned then it can be unlearned or, better still, not be taught in the first place.

Ingroup - outgroup thinking is natural - Racism is coonsidered a type of this thinking.

It's a field for sociological psychology; calling racism 'natural' doesn't make much sense.

Why do you assume that learning over coming instinct must indicate the initial impulse cannot be instinctual?

Instinctual reactions are not formed by prior experiences (learned). Babies suckling is instinctual as is their ability to swim; shivering from cold or fear too for example.

There have been studies done. I honestly couldn't be bothered finding them. Give it a solid googling and you'll find them.

You make the claim you back it up. You expect me to find evidence for your, as yet, spurious claims? Lol.

Annasopra

HHobo wrote: »

There have been studies done. I honestly couldn't be bothered finding them. Give it a solid googling and you'll find them.

If you're going to make a claim then at least back it up!

FTA69

Unfortunately I think that overt racist sentiment has become more common in Ireland since the recession started. It seems that many people seek to take their wider frustration with society out on groups that are easily blamed for the state the country is in. Sometimes these are social groups; for instance those on social welfare, single mothers etc and other times the targets may be race related. I've lost count of the times I've seen people on facebook (and elsewhere) rant on about "our own" with no jobs and "these Poles and Nigerians on the dole and taking the jobs" etc. It's a nasty and narrow-minded reaction which is found the world over. If only people would learn to kick up instead of kicking down at migrants and the unemployed then maybe Ireland would change for the better.

HHobo

Chuck Stone wrote: »

You said racism and xenophobia is natural. If it's leaned then it can be unlearned or, better still, not be taught in the first place.

I don't see what natual has to do with anything. Is it unnatual? Like all learned things must be?
It is innate.

Chuck Stone wrote: »

It's a field for sociological psychology

So what?

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Instinctual reactions are not formed by prior experiences (learned). Babies suckling is instinctual as is their ability to swim; shivering from cold or fear too for example.

Right and we react we misplaced instinctual responses in all kinds of situations. Fear of the unfamiliar is instinctual...

Chuck Stone wrote: »

You make the claim you back it up. You expect me to find evidence for your, as yet, spurious claims? Lol.

You seem to be confusing a thread on boards.ie with some form of formal debate. Ironically, you want me to do the searching for you. I healped you out by informing you such studies exist. I also made it clear I am not interested enough to go and find it. You want me to go and do the leg work so you can satisfy your curiosity.... ummm no thanks. I don't give a monkey's if you believe me or not.

9959

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/07/heart-drug-makes-people-less-racist-study_n_1328122.html

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs00213-012-2657-5

Thanks for the links, they made for interesting reading, but I would expect similar findings had the trialists been tested 'before and after' on their irrational fear/ loathing of Man Utd, Boyzone or Leitrim.

In other words, I don't believe that racism could in any way be construed as a medical condition to be 'cured with drugs', nor do I believe - as some posters seem to be suggesting - that racism (covert or overt) is the natural 'default' position of the vast majority of human beings.

I would have liked to explain my reading of those tests in greater detail, alas I'm seriously hampered by a severe dose of 'man flu', which is something I really HATE, perhaps Propranolol could be just the ticket!

For those who haven't read the links, the last line of one of them reads as follows:

".....In my view these preliminary results are a long way from suggesting that Propranolol specifically influences racial attitudes"

Chris Chambers, University of Cardiff, School of Psychology

Annasopra

HHobo wrote: »

I don't see what natual has to do with anything. Is it unnatual? Like all learned things must be?
It is innate.

So what?

Right and we react we misplaced instinctual responses in all kinds of situations. Fear of the unfamiliar is instinctual...

You seem to be confusing a thread on boards.ie with some form of formal debate. Ironically, you want me to do the searching for you. I healped you out by informing you such studies exist. I also made it clear I am not interested enough to go and find it. You want me to go and do the leg work so you can satisfy your curiosity.... ummm no thanks. I don't give a monkey's if you believe me or not.

So basically anything you say in this thread is meaningless twaddle.

doyle61

pabloh999 wrote: »

Cos you'd get yer head kicked in boss..

You think so???? lol. Doubt it but that's neither here nor there. By the way I love your contribution to the thread, it's................inspiring with the high level of intellect your showing

curlzy

I'm not racist or xenophobic or homophobic or agist etc EXCEPT for roma gypsies. I never give them spare change but I give other beggers change. It's coz I was ripped off when I worked in a shop and bamboozled me out of €50 twice. So yeah I guess I'm a little bit racist

Chuck Stone

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Actually, it's well accepted that racism and xenophobia can be 'unlearned' which creates an axiom, of sorts, that they had to be learned in the first place and, thus, are not natural states.

Ya think?


As for that thing with elections, most elections will have a couple of polls done beforehand. It was talked about before the 2008 US Presidential election and when there was a big sample size the polls matched nicely. Funny that.

Gauss

We generally treat those creatures most genetically similar the best. We treat reptiles better than insects, we treat mammals better than reptiles. We treat humans better than mammals. We treat family better than humans.