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Waterford GAA Discussion Thread 2011-2012

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    #5642
    soccymonster
    Registered Users Posts: 9,553 ✭✭✭soccymonster


    No Thomas Ryan?
    Loada ****.


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    #5643
    AtomicKoala
    Registered Users Posts: 881 ✭✭✭AtomicKoala


    soccymonster wrote: »
    No Thomas Ryan?
    Loada ****.

    Quickly forgotten by the mainstream groupthink that is Waterford hurling today.

    Despicable. Shameful. I could hurl so many more adjectives but I won't. Those two are enough.


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    #5644
    Mountainlad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,851 ✭✭✭Mountainlad


    AtomicKoala wrote: »
    Quickly forgotten by the mainstream groupthink that is Waterford hurling today.

    Despicable. Shameful. I could hurl so many more adjectives but I won't. Those two are enough.

    I see what you did there...


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    #5645
    deisedude
    Registered Users Posts: 4,839 ✭✭✭deisedude


    soccymonster wrote: »
    No Thomas Ryan?
    Loada ****.

    Sorry Soccy but last year showed he isn't big or strong enough. He was way too easily muscled off the ball


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    #5646
    deisebhoy17
    Closed Accounts Posts: 695 ✭✭✭deisebhoy17


    deisedude wrote: »
    Sorry Soccy but last year showed he isn't big or strong enough. He was way too easily muscled off the ball

    Maybe so, but its still harsh considering other lads were hanging around the panel for years without contributing anything meaningful or incapable of doing so. I can understand why they dropped Shane Casey he had no more to offer but Ryan was still developing as a player.


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    #5647
    deisebhoy17
    Closed Accounts Posts: 695 ✭✭✭deisebhoy17


    Mountainlad wrote: »
    One thing that was always going to be the case is the youth in the team. I have to say, while it's good that the best young players get this kind of exposure I wonder do we sometimes over do it. It seem that very little exception is made for the late bloomer in this County. Anybody of that age brought into the team is questioned, and usually he's written off because people believe he is only in the team because of the parish he hails from and I have to say it's something that doesn't sit right with me.

    They tried a few older fellahs at the beginning of last year and it just didnt work they werent good enough. Whether they were there because of their club or not is a debate for another day but the bottom line is they didnt cut it. If these were supposedly among the best club hurlers in the county as was argued here last year then youth is definetly the way forward.

    Id be a lot happier with the panel drawn up this year


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    #5648
    Deise Hurler
    Closed Accounts Posts: 219 ✭✭Deise Hurler


    Out of a panel of 35 only 4 (Brick, Seamus, Darragh Fives and Brian O 'Halloran) are from intermediate or junior clubs. Either the management haven't looked at many intermediate or junior games or the standard of these grades aren't up to much. Probably a bit of both.
    Of the 26 players that togged out for Kilkenny in the All Ireland replay last year, 11 come from intermediate or junior clubs.


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    #5649
    thesultan
    Registered Users Posts: 2,676 ✭✭✭thesultan


    Who's gone so from last year?


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    #5650
    Deise Tom
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,858 ✭✭✭Deise Tom


    Deise Hurler wrote: »
    Out of a panel of 35 only 4 (Brick, Seamus, Darragh Fives and Brian O 'Halloran) are from intermediate or junior clubs. Either the management haven't looked at many intermediate or junior games or the standard of these grades aren't up to much. Probably a bit of both.
    Of the 26 players that togged out for Kilkenny in the All Ireland replay last year, 11 come from intermediate or junior clubs.


    Donie Breatnach was an Intermediate player last year. Its on last years performances that the panel is picked as four days into 2013 there is no games played yet.


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    #5651
    premierstone
    Registered Users Posts: 7,706 ✭✭✭premierstone


    Deise Hurler wrote: »
    Out of a panel of 35 only 4 (Brick, Seamus, Darragh Fives and Brian O 'Halloran) are from intermediate or junior clubs. Either the management haven't looked at many intermediate or junior games or the standard of these grades aren't up to much. Probably a bit of both.
    Of the 26 players that togged out for Kilkenny in the All Ireland replay last year, 11 come from intermediate or junior clubs.

    Obviously not as well in the know as most here on the club scene in Waterford but the record of Waterford Intermediate and Junior Clubs in their respective Munster club championships would suggest the latter, how many senior clubs are there currently in Waterford?


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    #5652
    deisedude
    Registered Users Posts: 4,839 ✭✭✭deisedude


    deisebhoy17 wrote: »

    Maybe so, but its still harsh considering other lads were hanging around the panel for years without contributing anything meaningful or incapable of doing so. I can understand why they dropped Shane Casey he had no more to offer but Ryan was still developing as a player.

    The thing is they shouldnt have been knocking around. Ryan looked well out of his depth last year and i think there are young forwards like Dillon, O'Brien and O'Sullivan who have more to offer


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    #5653
    deisebhoy17
    Closed Accounts Posts: 695 ✭✭✭deisebhoy17


    So whats the story with Molumphy is he written off for the entire season or what?

    Disappointing about Philip Mahony aswell thought this would be a big year for him was interested see how hed progress from last year. I know you cant hold a lad back in the current environment but in fairness its not a great sign of our prospects for the coming year


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    #5654
    Mountainlad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,851 ✭✭✭Mountainlad


    deisebhoy17 wrote: »
    They tried a few older fellahs at the beginning of last year and it just didnt work they werent good enough. Whether they were there because of their club or not is a debate for another day but the bottom line is they didnt cut it. If these were supposedly among the best club hurlers in the county as was argued here last year then youth is definetly the way forward.

    Id be a lot happier with the panel drawn up this year

    I'm not trying to bring up the ghosts of the past. I'm suggesting players from any club, and there's a few to be honest that would be better than the players being given a chance just because their young, deserve their chance and shouldn't be written off just because they are in there mid 20s.

    We always take Kilkenny as a template, but nobody seems to talk about the fact that Cody never seems to throw players that are still u21 in, bar the odd exception (Cillian Buckley being one).

    I look at one or two, and I have to say any time I've seen them in a Waterford jersey they've been very unimpressive. Even outside of that, there's one player there that I can't really credit his selection at all. But I'm not going to say names, because they've all been evaluated far more shrewdly by the management you'd imagine, so we'll give them the benefit of that doubt. I just think the fact that we've had some successful underage teams (and reasonably, not that successful) has been given too much importance, and now nobody will accept you unless you played underage in the past couple of years, and it means that it is much easier for average players who made that team to make the panel.

    A lot happier in comparison to what by the way? Is it the Championship panel, or the panel of 52 players (which is 17 more than is there) at the start of January that nobobdy saw?

    Also, Jake Dillon is down as a newcomer. Did he not come on against Tipp in the league last year? And Paudie Prender has been there with the last few years?
    premierstone wrote: »
    Obviously not as well in the know as most here on the club scene in Waterford but the record of Waterford Intermediate and Junior Clubs in their respective Munster club championships would suggest the latter, how many senior clubs are there currently in Waterford?

    12 Senior teams in Waterford at the minute.


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    #5655
    solarith
    Registered Users Posts: 543 ✭✭✭solarith


    As someone who plays Intermediate hurling in the county, I can fully say the standard is years below senior and they're not going to get many from it.


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    #5656
    Jarjohn
    Registered Users Posts: 269 ✭✭Jarjohn


    I counted 10 of this panel starting v Clare in U21 disaster in 2012, with 4 of them taken off. Some looked totally below required standard even at that level. I wish them all the best but I wouldnt be too hopeful for 2013


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    #5657
    deisebhoy17
    Closed Accounts Posts: 695 ✭✭✭deisebhoy17


    Mountainlad wrote: »
    We always take Kilkenny as a template, but nobody seems to talk about the fact that Cody never seems to throw players that are still u21 in, bar the odd exception (Cillian Buckley being one).

    A lot happier in comparison to what by the way? Is it the Championship panel, or the panel of 52 players (which is 17 more than is there) at the start of January that nobobdy saw?

    Also, Jake Dillon is down as a newcomer. Did he not come on against Tipp in the league last year? And Paudie Prender has been there with the last few years? .

    Kilkenny dont need to throw lads in that young because they have plenty of established, experienced players there already. We dont have the same level of quality at our disposal and as such are forced to blood players a lot younger. To be fair there are always going to be some club players who feel hard done by and there are a couple lads who I feel were worth a try but never seem to have got the chance, but at the end of the day there arent too many in that category. Its a small enough county and if your good enough you'll more than likely be spotted at some stage.

    Yea Dillon and P Prender were on the league panel but were cut off it for the championship and played with the Intermediates instead for the championship.


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    #5658
    Mountainlad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,851 ✭✭✭Mountainlad


    deisebhoy17 wrote: »
    Kilkenny dont need to throw lads in that young because they have plenty of established, experienced players there already. We dont have the same level of quality at our disposal and as such are forced to blood players a lot younger. To be fair there are always going to be some club players who feel hard done by and there are a couple lads who I feel were worth a try but never seem to have got the chance, but at the end of the day there arent too many in that category. Its a small enough county and if your good enough you'll more than likely be spotted at some stage.

    Yea Dillon and P Prender were on the league panel but were cut off it for the championship and played with the Intermediates instead for the championship.

    Paudie Prender didn't. He was there on the bench against Clare beside Tony I'm certain.

    Also, this is a training panel, not the championship panel, so how would they be newcomers if they were there last year?

    I know we don't have the same level of quality as Kilkenny, that doesn't mean that the team should be full of u21s. Older, more experienced players in there would be better as it would increase the intensity in training and improve the better younger players more. Again, according to Kilkenny's principles it's the standard of training that defines a team's quality.

    Most importantly, the most common thing disregarded in an argument like this is the physical aspect of things. Lads in their prime, around 25, would be several years ahead in terms of conditioning, and it makes a serious difference (and it is the reason Cody doesn't throw young players with all they hype surrounding them into the deep end).

    Even looking at last years u21 team (to be fair I don't think it was a performance that did most of them justice), they were seriously lacking physically in comparison to a team of players the same age.


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    #5659
    alllcounty
    Registered Users Posts: 305 ✭✭alllcounty


    Where's Wayne Hutchinson, he's hardly dropped. He is one of the best defenders in the county and a good person to have in the half back line with his physic and first touch. He gave man of the match performances in the county final in 2011 and against Drom & Inch.

    Pity so little representation from the second and third tier club competitions on the waterford panel. Standard of intermediate and junior club hurling in the county is way behind that of Kilkenny, Limerick or Clare. Would have thought Cormac Heffernan and Darragh Flynn would have being given a chance as both did very well with the minors in the last few years and are big n strong. Hope because you come from an intermediate or junior club you are not automatically overlooked because of the west/east divide at these levels and resulting poor standard of club games. Underage players from intermediate and junior clubs have being doing well in recent years due to the improved all county club structures up to minor. It would be bad if players who showed the same ability on the county underage teams would not be given a fair chance because they come from intermediate clubs while those from senior clubs are considered.


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    #5660
    premierstone
    Registered Users Posts: 7,706 ✭✭✭premierstone


    Mountainlad wrote: »
    I know we don't have the same level of quality as Kilkenny, that doesn't mean that the team should be full of u21s. Older, more experienced players in there would be better as it would increase the intensity in training and improve the better younger players more. Again, according to Kilkenny's principles it's the standard of training that defines a team's quality.

    Most importantly, the most common thing disregarded in an argument like this is the physical aspect of things. Lads in their prime, around 25, would be several years ahead in terms of conditioning, and it makes a serious difference (and it is the reason Cody doesn't throw young players with all they hype surrounding them into the deep end).

    Don't think you can make such sweeping generalisations about an entire age-group mountain, how many U-21's were in the Galway set up last year and they did better than all of the rest of the chasing pack and by a considerable margin aswell. There is an old saying and unlike alot of them it is still true ''If you are good enough, you are old enough''


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    #5661
    deisebhoy17
    Closed Accounts Posts: 695 ✭✭✭deisebhoy17


    alllcounty wrote: »
    Where's Wayne Hutchinson, he's hardly dropped. He is one of the best defenders in the county and a good person to have in the half back line with his physic and first touch. He gave man of the match performances in the county final in 2011 and against Drom & Inch.

    Id agree. Theres a lad who never got a fair chance at senior intercounty level. Hes been one of the best if not the best wing back in the county over the past 10 years yet never even got a minutes gametime in that position for Waterford at championship level. As far as I know his only championship start for waterford was at full back against Limerick a couple years back where he got a bit of a skinning off kevin downes but its not his position. Going on 28 now youd have to think his chances are slipping at this stage


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    #5662
    Mountainlad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,851 ✭✭✭Mountainlad


    premierstone wrote: »
    Don't think you can make such sweeping generalisations about an entire age-group mountain, how many U-21's were in the Galway set up last year and they did better than all of the rest of the chasing pack and by a considerable margin aswell. There is an old saying and unlike alot of them it is still true ''If you are good enough, you are old enough''

    True enough. We'll see how well Galway do this year, I don't think they'll have a year as good as this.

    I take your point though. But then that's Galway, who were the minor and under 21 all ireland champions the year before.

    Despite our improvement underage we've only won one title from Minor and u21 in recent times. There's a marked improvement, but we get carried away in that a bit. I have faith in several of the young players that are in the team, and what you say about quality rather than age being the best measure of a player, but I dunno that some of them are good enough yet.

    It takes more than just skill to be a Senior inter county hurler. I'm not gonna say Brick is a bad hurler with no skill, because that's not true, but relative to other players in the top teams in Ireland, his touch and striking wouldn't be of the same calibre. In spite of this, he has won 3 all stars. Seamus Prendergast is a good hurler, but in his early days with Waterford his striking could be a bit lacking. He has a powerful strike now, but his shooting was wayward last year. But he has an all star.

    Theres a time for every player, and I don't think it is recognized that some players might benefit from not being thrown straight into the Waterford panel. Everyone seems to think that the earlier they are in the better, but it's not always the case.


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    #5663
    premierstone
    Registered Users Posts: 7,706 ✭✭✭premierstone


    I actually agree with you wholeheartedly, I just thought you were leaning abit too far the other way and saying that no young players should be involved.

    I would imagine that the Waterford mamangement have recognised that, with all due respect, the previous panel were threading water at best and a period of re-building is needed, so if they feel the best time to expose some of these younger talents to the set up is while you still have such legends as Brick, Tony and Mullane to pass on their experience then I for one agree with their approach.


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    #5664
    WumBuster
    Closed Accounts Posts: 827 ✭✭✭WumBuster


    Jarjohn wrote: »
    I counted 10 of this panel starting v Clare in U21 disaster in 2012, with 4 of them taken off. Some looked totally below required standard even at that level. I wish them all the best but I wouldnt be too hopeful for 2013

    I think that was down to a bad day at the office more than anything.Clare were out of the senior championship at that stage and were training together with the full panel for weeks whereas the waterford lads seemed thrown together for the evening. Id be quietly confident about the u21's prosepects for this year though. We beat much the same Clare team in minor at home although lost the munster final with only 4 days after the replayed Cork game.


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    #5665
    Deise Tom
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,858 ✭✭✭Deise Tom


    premierstone wrote: »
    Obviously not as well in the know as most here on the club scene in Waterford but the record of Waterford Intermediate and Junior Clubs in their respective Munster club championships would suggest the latter, how many senior clubs are there currently in Waterford?


    12 Clubs are in the draws.


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    #5666
    Deise Tom
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,858 ✭✭✭Deise Tom


    solarith wrote: »
    As someone who plays Intermediate hurling in the county, I can fully say the standard is years below senior and they're not going to get many from it.


    The County Board and the clubs in Waterford have to raise the standard of Intermediate and Junior Hurling in the county. Timmy O'Keeffe was correct in what he said at convention about competing at Senior Level in Munster but not at Intermediate and Junior. All county competitions are a must in Waterford and sooner rather than later.


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    #5667
    Deise Tom
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,858 ✭✭✭Deise Tom


    alllcounty wrote: »
    Where's Wayne Hutchinson, he's hardly dropped. He is one of the best defenders in the county and a good person to have in the half back line with his physic and first touch. He gave man of the match performances in the county final in 2011 and against Drom & Inch.


    Pity so little representation from the second and third tier club competitions on the waterford panel. Standard of intermediate and junior club hurling in the county is way behind that of Kilkenny, Limerick or Clare. Would have thought Cormac Heffernan and Darragh Flynn would have being given a chance as both did very well with the minors in the last few years and are big n strong. Hope because you come from an intermediate or junior club you are not automatically overlooked because of the west/east divide at these levels and resulting poor standard of club games. Underage players from intermediate and junior clubs have being doing well in recent years due to the improved all county club structures up to minor. It would be bad if players who showed the same ability on the county underage teams would not be given a fair chance because they come from intermediate clubs while those from senior clubs are considered.
    There is a big step up from Minor inter county to senior inter county hurling. The problem with players like these breaking into the senior intercounty scene is the standard of hurling played at this level. Most of us like to think its good and that the competitions are close but this is not the case. We see how good our Intermediate and Junior championships are when our champions go on to play in Munster. Until we go all county with all our championships, and create maybe a Premier Intermediate and a Premier Junior Championship where clubs are graded in accordance with results over a three or four year period, players like the ones mentioned are going to struggle to make the step up to inter county hurling unless they are a serious talent.


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    #5668
    Mountainlad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,851 ✭✭✭Mountainlad


    WumBuster wrote: »
    I think that was down to a bad day at the office more than anything.Clare were out of the senior championship at that stage and were training together with the full panel for weeks whereas the waterford lads seemed thrown together for the evening. Id be quietly confident about the u21's prosepects for this year though. We beat much the same Clare team in minor at home although lost the munster final with only 4 days after the replayed Cork game.

    The same was said last year. There's no doubting the talent is there, but it's there in all 5 Munster Counties right now. There is a lot of work to be done, and I hope nobody is under any illusions about that fact. Hopefully, that work will be done and they'll deliver on their potential.


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    #5669
    Cake Man
    Registered Users Posts: 2,825 ✭✭✭Cake Man


    Happy enough with that panel, all the newcomers I feel deserve to be there.
    Good to see Tony and Seamus sticking it out for another year. Also good to have Shane O'Sullivan and Brian O'Sullivan back as they weren't around last year.
    Seems Tomas Ryan, Shane Casey and Paul O'Brien are the main ones not called back, obviously along with Eoin Kelly and Eoin McGrath. What's the story with Aidan Kearney, is he still injured? Shame, as I felt he could still offer something.


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    #5670
    Motivator
    Registered Users Posts: 2,751 ✭✭✭Motivator


    Mountainlad wrote: »
    Seamus Prendergast is a good hurler, but in his early days with Waterford his striking could be a bit lacking. He has a powerful strike now, but his shooting was wayward last year. But he has an all star.
    .

    No he doesn't.


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    #5671
    deisebhoy17
    Closed Accounts Posts: 695 ✭✭✭deisebhoy17


    Its gonna be another difficult year theres no doubt about that. Molumphy and Philip Mahony are massive losses a county like ours cannot afford to lose our top players especially a leader like Molumphy considering there aren't too many of our experienced players left. Whose gonna take the captaincy surely its set up for Mullane?


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