Questions regarding the safety of Garda vans

Gallee · 03-01-2013 01:13AM

salonfire wrote: »

Can people not just reply to the man's question without the smart answers?

Well said. It absolutely amazes me the amount of Members waiting to have a cut off a genuine poster with a load of smart answers. Were not all Gardai who post here and some of us have some genuine questions. After all it's a discussion forum and to be fair the Mod should have a little bit more understanding of this before he threw his tuppence in. I like reading this forum because my Da was on the Force for years but unfortunately he is no longer here.

Yaxihy · 03-01-2013 11:01PM

foreign wrote: »

To be honest, I don't really care if the people who are getting put into the back of a van or car get hurt, as long as a member doesn't get hurt by them. Remember, they are going in there because they have committed a crime.

Do you honestly think thats a fair comment Foreign? I mean I'm sure one could say that in general people will end up being guilty but I'm sure there are (possibly quite a few?) people who end up in the back of a Garda van in what turns out to be mass confusion (perhaps a riot scenario where the full facts arent established until later)

Either way, I personally think your comment is slightly thoughtless and juvenile, would a "guilty" person who urinated in public, but was courteous and cooperative with the arresting Gardai deserve to be killed in an overturned Garda vehicle?

goldie fish · 03-01-2013 11:32PM

Yaxihy wrote: »

Do you honestly think thats a fair comment Foreign? I mean I'm sure one could say that in general people will end up being guilty but I'm sure there are (possibly quite a few?) people who end up in the back of a Garda van in what turns out to be mass confusion (perhaps a riot scenario where the full facts arent established until later)

Either way, I personally think your comment is slightly thoughtless and juvenile, would a "guilty" person who urinated in public, but was courteous and cooperative with the arresting Gardai deserve to be killed in an overturned Garda vehicle?

The chances of that happening?

The chances of an unruly prisoner attacking and injuring other gardai while being transported in a normal patrol car?

How many prisoners have been killed while being carried in vans like this?

Yaxihy · 03-01-2013 11:59PM

goldie fish wrote: »

The chances of that happening?

The chances of an unruly prisoner attacking and injuring other gardai while being transported in a normal patrol car?

How many prisoners have been killed while being carried in vans like this?

The chances of that happening are small I'd imagine, thought that wasnt the point of my post, my point was questioning whether the "what happens to them doesnt matter" mentality is a fair one, sorry if it appeared otherwise

sdanseo · 04-01-2013 12:04AM

foreign wrote: »

To be honest, I don't really care if the people who are getting put into the back of a van or car get hurt, as long as a member doesn't get hurt by them. Remember, they are going in there because they have committed a crime.

First, they are innocent until proven guilty.

Second, so someone placed in the back of one of these vans deserves to be crushed to death in a van crash? That sounds fair.

Lots of respect for you, knowing you're a Guard etc, but the above sounds to me like a vindictive and unfair opinion and a case of judging all suspects as violent and worthless. Yes, they are under detention and yes, they need to be restrained in such a way that they cannot assault a member of AGS - but they are entitled to be treated fairly and safely.

goldie fish · 04-01-2013 12:17AM

In an ideal world you should be able to do everything in your power to prevent a prisoner from being injured while under arrest.

I like the idea of sedating them myself. It works for zoo animals.

twowheelsonly · 04-01-2013 12:32AM

charlemont wrote: »

YouTube is blocked in work so can't see it...

Is it an urban myth that the prison vans, the ones with the blacked out windows and steel compartments (they make the van's here in question look like the lap of luxury) have a detachable roof in case of accident ?

I heard that several times, If true it may be good for the prisoners safety but it certainly isn't good for the public's safety, Security risks are quiet obvious.

The Prison Vans have hatches but they're extremely secure, probably more so than the doors !! Also, you'd almost need a degree in engineering to open them :-) It's actually physically impossible to open them or to kick them open from inside each 'Cell'.

seavill · 04-01-2013 11:56PM

sdeire wrote: »

First, they are innocent until proven guilty.

Second, so someone placed in the back of one of these vans deserves to be crushed to death in a van crash? That sounds fair.

Lots of respect for you, knowing you're a Guard etc, but the above sounds to me like a vindictive and unfair opinion and a case of judging all suspects as violent and worthless. Yes, they are under detention and yes, they need to be restrained in such a way that they cannot assault a member of AGS - but they are entitled to be treated fairly and safely.

Is there an example of someone being crushed to death in a van crash?

I'm wondering how is it possible to get crushed to death in a cage like this?

Cedrus · 05-01-2013 12:30AM

seavill wrote: »

Is there an example of someone being crushed to death in a van crash?

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=crushed+to+death+in+a+van+crash

seavill wrote: »

I'm wondering how is it possible to get crushed to death in a cage like this?

You obviously have no understanding of risk analysis and prevention!

Clowns like you and other big thick civic guards on here remind me how hard it was to reduce casualties in the construction industry. Big dopey face "I'm not gunna chop my own fingers off" - He did. "I'm not going to fall off a ladder I've been on them since before you were born" - He did, backwards, spared his family the closed coffin at least.

Police in all countries do a tough job, and most deserve everyones support most of the time, but the "I don't care about criminals" attitude stinks and anyone with that attitude should retire and write angry letters to right wing newspapers.

seavill · 05-01-2013 12:36AM

Cedrus wrote: »

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=crushed+to+death+in+a+van+crash

You obviously have no understanding of risk analysis and prevention!

Clowns like you and other big thick civic guards on here remind me how hard it was to reduce casualties in the construction industry. Big dopey face "I'm not gunna chop my own fingers off" - He did. "I'm not going to fall off a ladder I've been on them since before you were born" - He did, backwards, spared his family the closed coffin at least.

Police in all countries do a tough job, and most deserve everyones support most of the time, but the "I don't care about criminals" attitude stinks and anyone with that attitude should retire and write angry letters to right wing newspapers.

Apologies mods but who the **** are you to judge me like that. I have not been part of this thread so far I have not commented on anything or no where have you or will you find on any thread I have posted on an attitude of I don't care about criminals.

I just asked two questions neither of which you answered by the way.

Take my second question I would say you would be more likely to get crushed to death in the back of a squad car from a high speed collision with a car v car side on impact or impact from behind, than the ability of a car to be able to do the same damage to a van with a reinforced steel cage as part of it. Now look at my logic there in my last sentenance and see what a idiotic post you just made

Cedrus · 05-01-2013 01:36AM

seavill wrote: »

Is there an example of someone being crushed to death in a van crash?

It has happened, I apologise for not leading you by the hand but you can research this yourself. Reports of secure transports accidents are not easy to find on the internet but your question is phrased simply as "van crashes". Anecdotally, secure transport accidents have occurred but, for reasons I can only speculate upon, I cannot find a precise example for you at this time. Again I apologise.

seavill wrote: »

I'm wondering how is it possible to get crushed to death in a cage like this?

The first step in risk analysis is to look at the task and the use of the machinery and other tools which will be required to complete it.
The second is to address the potential for accidents in normal execution of the above task and eliminate any portions of the task which pose a risk which is unnecessary.
Next, you address the potential for things to go wrong (and this is where I hope to answer your question). Could the van crash? Could the van overturn? Could the van be hit by a smaller vehicle? Could the van be hit by a larger vehicle? Could the van be hit on an overpass that would result in the van leaving the carriageway and falling to a road/railway below? Is the van structurally capable of such a fall/ impact? Could an intoxicated or otherwise disturbed prisoner affect the driving behaviour of the van driver? Could a hyped up driver leaving a stressful scene be adequately prepared for another adverse event?
Finally you weight the Hazards with a risk rating which is effectively a multiplier, if a hazard is minor, but likely then it can be weighted as high as an unlikely major hazard.
Therefore it does not always matter how unlikely a hazard is, a catastrophic result may still be the outcome.

seavill · 05-01-2013 01:56AM

Cedrus wrote: »

It has happened, I apologise for not leading you by the hand but you can research this yourself. Reports of secure transports accidents are not easy to find on the internet but your question is phrased simply as "van crashes". Anecdotally, secure transport accidents have occurred but, for reasons I can only speculate upon, I cannot find a precise example for you at this time. Again I apologise.

The first step in risk analysis is to look at the task and the use of the machinery and other tools which will be required to complete it.
The second is to address the potential for accidents in normal execution of the above task and eliminate any portions of the task which pose a risk which is unnecessary.
Next, you address the potential for things to go wrong (and this is where I hope to answer your question). Could the van crash? Could the van overturn? Could the van be hit by a smaller vehicle? Could the van be hit by a larger vehicle? Could the van be hit on an overpass that would result in the van leaving the carriageway and falling to a road/railway below? Is the van structurally capable of such a fall/ impact? Could an intoxicated or otherwise disturbed prisoner affect the driving behaviour of the van driver? Could a hyped up driver leaving a stressful scene be adequately prepared for another adverse event?
Finally you weight the Hazards with a risk rating which is effectively a multiplier, if a hazard is minor, but likely then it can be weighted as high as an unlikely major hazard.
Therefore it does not always matter how unlikely a hazard is, a catastrophic result may still be the outcome.

So again you have not managed to answer in all your waffle either of my questions.

Obviously you are trying to be smart in how I "phrased" my quesiton we are clearly talking about Garda vans not van crashes in general didn't think I needed to spell that out.

So the answer to my first question
"Is there an example of someone being crushed to death in a van crash?" (i.e. a caged van as we are talking about) - despite your two smart irrelevant answers - your answer to my question should have been "no I cannot find an example"

The second question
"I'm wondering how is it possible to get crushed to death in a cage like this?" I can phrase a different way to clarify which I explained in more detail in my second post. I would sugguest you are far more likely to be crushed travelling in the back of a squad car (usually everyday family cars with fancy lights) than you are in a reinforced steel cage. Yes you will be thrown around the place as there are no restraints which may cause its own injures but going back to my question and and sdires point about being "crushed to death" you failed in all your waffle to say yes you can. You can go on about risk assessment all you want but it was irrelevant to what was asked and you made no reference to what was asked.

I will take your second post as an apology instead

goldie fish · 05-01-2013 02:02AM

So it seems the accidents happened, millions of prisoners were crushed and the authorities covered it up.

That signals thread over to me....

sdanseo · 05-01-2013 06:14AM

goldie fish wrote: »

So it seems the accidents happened, millions of prisoners were crushed and the authorities covered it up.

That signals thread over to me....

That signals "I don't like the way the conversation has turned even mildly critical, let's close it immediately" to me.

AlekSmart · 05-01-2013 06:37PM

Cedrus wrote: »

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=crushed+to+death+in+a+van+crash

You obviously have no understanding of risk analysis and prevention!

Clowns like you and other big thick civic guards on here remind me how hard it was to reduce casualties in the construction industry. Big dopey face "I'm not gunna chop my own fingers off" - He did. "I'm not going to fall off a ladder I've been on them since before you were born" - He did, backwards, spared his family the closed coffin at least.

Police in all countries do a tough job, and most deserve everyones support most of the time, but the "I don't care about criminals" attitude stinks and anyone with that attitude should retire and write angry letters to right wing newspapers.

Its interesting that Cedrus and others seek to take a highly specific "Safety Related" issue and broaden it's concept substantially.

As a non-criminally intentioned citizen,I have no desire to put the likes of the Transit,or Transit Connect as used by the Gardai to the test.

However,having had the opportunity to look over some of the newer Connect models and also some used by the London Metropolitan Police,I'd be quite satisfied that all reasonable precautions have been engineered into the vehicles,taking into consideration the highly unpredictable nature of those who make up it's user base.

To make comparisons between Occuptional Safety and Law Enforcement situations is,to my mind,tenuous at least.

The first duty of the Gardai is the protection of public safety and maintenance of public order.

As long as they are adhering to these principles,I'm happy enough for those individuals for whom secure-transportation is deemed necessary,to enjoy a somewhat higher risk factor than the rest of us.

In this particular case,the best Risk-Analysis and Prevention would be not to place oneself in situations which could see you in a Maria ?

ectoraige · 05-01-2013 08:06PM

Cedrus wrote: »

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=crushed+to+death+in+a+van+crash

For the record, I went through the first fifty results and failed to find a relevant example. There were many people crushed by vans, including a mechanic crushed under the van he worked on, and many more crushed in cars. Also, three men died when their vehicle was crushed by a combine harvester, but they were in minivan. There was one case of a man who crashed into a tree and was crushed top death by his work equipment kept on a shelf behind him.

Not really the most useful or relevant link so.

Potential-Monke · 06-01-2013 06:48PM

Christ, this is going well...

The vans have been researched, are based on other countries (most likely the UK) and have all the safety boxes ticked. Even though if there were to be a crash, and the van overturned, the prisoner would get injured, but the current vans are seen as the most efficient and safest way to transport criminals, violent or not, to the station.

Short of a Transporter straight from Star Trek, i cannot think of a better, safer way to transport them without added expenditure or risk to members (No. 1 priority in my book).

Questions regarding the safety of Garda vans

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