Questions regarding the safety of Garda vans

Barry Barry

This question has been on my mind for a while now, couldn't find any answers on the internet so I'm going to ask here if thats okay.

Why don't Garda vans have seat belts in the rear cage for people who have been arrested?

I was under the assumption that it was a legal requirement for everybody on board a moving vehicle had to wear a seat belt unless exempt due to medical reasons.

If a van somehow managed to overturn a prisoner in the rear would most likely be seriously injured due to not wearing a seat belt.

If the driver of the van had to stop suddenly the prisoner could be thrown forward and hit his or her head against the wall.

This may sound like I'm nitpicking but I'm genuinely interested in hearing what people have to say.

Thanks,
Barry

goldie fish

Have you spent much time in the back of them?

juan.kerr

Barry Barry wrote: »

I was under the assumption that it was a legal requirement for everybody on board a moving vehicle had to wear a seat belt unless exempt due to medical reasons.

Do public buses have seat belts for passengers? What about those who are standing?

gem112

Well technically you are "restrained" in the cage

Princess Zelda

Barry Barry wrote: »

This question has been on my mind for a while now, couldn't find any answers on the internet so I'm going to ask here if thats okay.

Why don't Garda vans have seat belts in the rear cage for people who have been arrested?

I was under the assumption that it was a legal requirement for everybody on board a moving vehicle had to wear a seat belt unless exempt due to medical reasons.

If a van somehow managed to overturn a prisoner in the rear would most likely be seriously injured due to not wearing a seat belt.

If the driver of the van had to stop suddenly the prisoner could be thrown forward and hit his or her head against the wall.

This may sound like I'm nitpicking but I'm genuinely interested in hearing what people have to say.

Thanks,
Barry

At a guess, with some prisoners' propensity to self-harm, it is better from a safety perspective to not have seatbelts in the prisoner cages.

Hooch

Have you ever tried to put a seat belt on a combative prisoner???

dahamsta

They're not all combative.

flazio

dahamsta wrote: »

They're not all combative.

Non combative ones would be transported in the patrol car then wouldn't they?

Can people not just reply to the man's question without the smart answers?

ambo112

wearing of seat belts is only a legal requirement when a seat belt is provided. You can not wear a seatbelt when seated sideways as it will cause more harm.
These cages are designed for combative prisoners who will fight any attempt to place them in a seatbelt.

Im not a garda, im a paramedic but know seatbelt laws from experience with our vehicles as we have to sit sideways to treat a patient when moving but we are told that officially we have to face forward with seatbelt on which makes it impossible to treat a patient!! Nightmare!!

flazio

Are there any examples of prisoner restraint systems from over seas that people would like to suggest?

dahamsta

flazio wrote: »

Non combative ones would be transported in the patrol car then wouldn't they?

Ah right, I'd forgotten the unlimited patrol cars in our imaginary situation containing only combatative people.

AlekSmart

Barry Barry wrote: »

This question has been on my mind for a while now, couldn't find any answers on the internet so I'm going to ask here if thats okay.

Why don't Garda vans have seat belts in the rear cage for people who have been arrested?

I was under the assumption that it was a legal requirement for everybody on board a moving vehicle had to wear a seat belt unless exempt due to medical reasons.

If a van somehow managed to overturn a prisoner in the rear would most likely be seriously injured due to not wearing a seat belt.

If the driver of the van had to stop suddenly the prisoner could be thrown forward and hit his or her head against the wall.

This may sound like I'm nitpicking but I'm genuinely interested in hearing what people have to say.

Thanks,
Barry

I suspect it hinges on Garda vehicles and personnel being exempted from RTA provisions whilst on Duty ?

Oddly enough,as you say,I actually do consider it Nitpicking in this instance.

Could you perhaps expand a little on the nature of your "genuine interest" in the issue ?

AlekSmart

flazio wrote: »

Are there any examples of prisoner restraint systems from over seas that people would like to suggest?

Plenty,where would you like to start....

http://www.pxdirect.com/Restraints-Torso.htm

Although,in our caring sharing society I rather suspect these devices would infringe upon some inalienable right to movement or somesuch...?

Barry Barry

goldie fish wrote: »

Have you spent much time in the back of them?

No. I have never been arrested. If you don't have anything relative to say why bother posting?

juan.kerr wrote: »

Do public buses have seat belts for passengers? What about those who are standing?

I never thought of that and now that I am, that is pretty dangerous imo. Buses are much heavier, slower vehicles than Garda vans though.

Hooch wrote: »

Have you ever tried to put a seat belt on a combative prisoner???

No I haven't and I would imagine it wouldn't be a lot of fun. What about those who aren't combative though? Those who aren't combative aren't always carried in vans.

flazio wrote: »

Non combative ones would be transported in the patrol car then wouldn't they?

This doesn't always happen though, sometimes they are carried in vans.

ambo112 wrote: »

wearing of seat belts is only a legal requirement when a seat belt is provided. You can not wear a seatbelt when seated sideways as it will cause more harm.
These cages are designed for combative prisoners who will fight any attempt to place them in a seatbelt.

Im not a garda, im a paramedic but know seatbelt laws from experience with our vehicles as we have to sit sideways to treat a patient when moving but we are told that officially we have to face forward with seatbelt on which makes it impossible to treat a patient!! Nightmare!!

This pretty much answers the question. Thanks.

Based on that, I think it would be a good idea for Garda vans to have forward facing seats for prisoners.

AlekSmart wrote: »

Barry Barry wrote: »

This question has been on my mind for a while now, couldn't find any answers on the internet so I'm going to ask here if thats okay.

Why don't Garda vans have seat belts in the rear cage for people who have been arrested?

I was under the assumption that it was a legal requirement for everybody on board a moving vehicle had to wear a seat belt unless exempt due to medical reasons.

If a van somehow managed to overturn a prisoner in the rear would most likely be seriously injured due to not wearing a seat belt.

If the driver of the van had to stop suddenly the prisoner could be thrown forward and hit his or her head against the wall.

This may sound like I'm nitpicking but I'm genuinely interested in hearing what people have to say.

Thanks,
Barry

I suspect it hinges on Garda vehicles and personnel being exempted from RTA provisions whilst on Duty ?

Oddly enough,as you say,I actually do consider it Nitpicking in this instance.

Could you perhaps expand a little on the nature of your "genuine interest" in the issue ?

What you and I consider as nitpicking must be very different things.

I'm genuinely interested because this has been on my mind for a while now.

Isn't it the job of the Garda to protect us? Even if someone has committed a crime isn't it there job to protect us? Throwing somebody into the back of a van, unrestrained isn't protecting them if it puts their lives at risk.

__

Thanks to everyone for their input on this by the way

AlekSmart

Barry Barry wrote: »

What you and I consider as nitpicking must be very different things.

I'm genuinely interested because this has been on my mind for a while now.

Isn't it the job of the Garda to protect us? Even if someone has committed a crime isn't it there job to protect us?

Throwing somebody into the back of a van, unrestrained isn't protecting them if it puts their lives at risk.

Thanks to everyone for their input on this by the way

Yes indeed Barry Barry,very different things indeed,but hey!,thats life,full of people agreeing to disagree.

I have had only one upclose and personal encounter with Gardai arresting,restraining and transporting a prisoner.

In this particular case it was a female,highly unstable and carrying an empty vodka-bottle.

Having already lashed out at some passers-by with her bottle,she was not impressed with the Gardai's polite but firm instructions to drop the bottle.

To put it mildly,she went ballistic !

It took all the efforts of three Gardai to restrain her until a van arrived to transport her from the scene...

Thankfully,they had managed to either cuff or cable-tie her wrists together,but I have no problem admitting my intense relief at the sight of her being "thrown" into the back of that van.

Was I concerned at a potential negative impact upon her safety due to lack of seat-belts ?

No,not in the slightest,nor would I be now should a similar situation arise.

I see similar situations now on a daily basis in Dublin City Centre,and yet again,I have no qualms about reststating my ambivalence for the comfort of the offenders.

Common sense tells me that Gardai,by and large,perform a thankless task with little prospect of pleasing everybody,but to suggest that they be required to skew the balance of responsibility even more away from the offender is the stuff of romantic fiction ?

To be honest, I don't really care if the people who are getting put into the back of a van or car get hurt, as long as a member doesn't get hurt by them. Remember, they are going in there because they have committed a crime.

audidiesel

as has been said, you cannot put in seatbelts for side sitting seats. they are more likely to cause injury. that leaves you with either forward facing seats for prisoners in the cage. if you were to bring that in, then it means that the guard would have to go in front of the prisoner to put them in a seat. if they are resisting, then the guard puts themselves at risk of being spat at, being bitten or being headbutted.

not to mention the fact that the cages in the transits arent really long enough for forward facing seats. the transit kinects definately arent.

personally im not willing to endanger my safety any further than i have to just to make you feel a little bit better. as for those restraining devices two points.

firstly whos going to pay for them?

secondly and more importantly, how are we meant to get them on a resisting prisoner whos covered in blood and puke kicking and punching out at us? it can take two or three guards to get cuffs on a big resisting fella. never mind body restraints.

that system works in the us prison service because theres a guard standing beside the prisoner with a pump action shotgun. we dont have that here....

Barry Barry

audidiesel wrote: »

as has been said, you cannot put in seatbelts for side sitting seats. they are more likely to cause injury. that leaves you with either forward facing seats for prisoners in the cage. if you were to bring that in, then it means that the guard would have to go in front of the prisoner to put them in a seat. if they are resisting, then the guard puts themselves at risk of being spat at, being bitten or being headbutted.

not to mention the fact that the cages in the transits arent really long enough for forward facing seats. the transit kinects definately arent.

personally im not willing to endanger my safety any further than i have to just to make you feel a little bit better. as for those restraining devices two points.

firstly whos going to pay for them?

secondly and more importantly, how are we meant to get them on a resisting prisoner whos covered in blood and puke kicking and punching out at us? it can take two or three guards to get cuffs on a big resisting fella. never mind body restraints.

that system works in the us prison service because theres a guard standing beside the prisoner with a pump action shotgun. we dont have that here....

Perfect answer. Thanks very much

gctest50

Barry Barry wrote: »

If a van somehow managed to overturn ...............

Some safety features:
locks the doors
covers you in acid
then sets fire to everything.



"After the crash tools were required to fully open the
driver’s door. Battery acid leaked onto the
ground. This is a concern because the batteries
are located in the passenger compartment,
under the driver's seat. A small fire ignited
behind the radiator due to an electrical short."


http://www.howsafeisyourcar.com.au/2011/Ford/Transit/SWB-FWD-Low-Roof-VM-2D-Van-6sp-man-2_2L-4cyl-TDiesel/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bno46zIrgxA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCYPacqhnOQ

Terrontress

The cages are quite small which surely acts as a restraint in itself. Of course this isn't much use when a van overturns but in a standard collision a prisoner will ram up against the cabin side of the cage rather than what happens when unrestrained in a car?

That's my thought although it is not based on any expertise or experience.

mark renton

foreign wrote: »

To be honest, I don't really care if the people who are getting put into the back of a van or car get hurt, as long as a member doesn't get hurt by them. Remember, they are going in there because they have committed a crime.

Nonsense - they are going in there because they have been "suspected" of commiting a crime

Potential-Monke

If i manage to get a prisoner into the back of the van without getting injured, it's considered a good result. It's not easy getting some (more than likely) intoxicated fool who's lashing out with whatever unrestrained body part he can up into the air a couple of feet, into a cage which is a couple of feet back, and close the door before he manages to get an appendage in the way. Seat belts are not even a consideration in those circumstances.

Anyway, once the prisoner is in, there's no rush back to the station usually, so the proper rules of the road are adhered to, and the risk to the prisoner is minimal. But usually at this point they're headbutting and kicking everything around them, ie: metal and perspex.

charlemont

They would want to turn on the air venting too. Had a 20 mile drive in one and it was the worst journey I ever took.

charlemont

john47832 wrote: »

Nonsense - they are going in there because they have been "suspected" of commiting a crime

A poxy half ounce of Hash was the reason I ended up in it, But sure the public must be protected from drug using animals like myself..:rolleyes:

AlekSmart

Potential-Monke wrote: »

If i manage to get a prisoner into the back of the van without getting injured, it's considered a good result. It's not easy getting some (more than likely) intoxicated fool who's lashing out with whatever unrestrained body part he can up into the air a couple of feet, into a cage which is a couple of feet back, and close the door before he manages to get an appendage in the way. Seat belts are not even a consideration in those circumstances.

Anyway, once the prisoner is in, there's no rush back to the station usually, so the proper rules of the road are adhered to, and the risk to the prisoner is minimal. But usually at this point they're headbutting and kicking everything around them, ie: metal and perspex.

Ah come on outa dat,you are such a Drama-Queen...we ALL know that once you say the magic-words "You're Nicked" the suspects cease all resistance and come quietly..at least it worked for Jack Regan .....;)

And of course You are probably wrongfully arresting the person anyway,are'nt you ?...oh yes,we know all about you Policey types round here .....:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

charlemont

flazio wrote: »

Non combative ones would be transported in the patrol car then wouldn't they?

No they wouldn't, Do you think a separate Garda car will bring each prisoner to from court or prison ?

Regarding the picture in the first post that space would contain 6 prisoners. Well it did the time I was in it.

Cedrus

I don't know much about police or prison vans but I've built several police and immigration holding cells abroad and most of the design is focussed on giving the prisoner nothing to harm themselves or officer with. The walls were painted with an ultra smooth hard paint to stop them debrading their finger prints, the beds were either solid concrete or fully welded steel (after beds were unbolted to make weapons), either no sheets or just paper sheets.

I'm not sure that even if was possible to put belts in vans they would be used for protection or darker purpose. They would also need to be integrity tested after every use, they would be worse than useless if damaged.

msg11

charlemont wrote: »

No they wouldn't, Do you think a separate Garda car will bring each prisoner to from court or prison ?

Regarding the picture in the first post that space would contain 6 prisoners. Well it did the time I was in it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNDmpSIX08o

Terrontress

msg11 wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNDmpSIX08o

That's quite impressive to see Garda cars with metallic paint. Most Garda Mondeos I have ever seen are a flat red or navy.

charlemont

msg11 wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNDmpSIX08o

YouTube is blocked in work so can't see it...


Is it an urban myth that the prison vans, the ones with the blacked out windows and steel compartments (they make the van's here in question look like the lap of luxury) have a detachable roof in case of accident ?


I heard that several times, If true it may be good for the prisoners safety but it certainly isn't good for the public's safety, Security risks are quiet obvious.

Gallee

salonfire wrote: »

Can people not just reply to the man's question without the smart answers?

Well said. It absolutely amazes me the amount of Members waiting to have a cut off a genuine poster with a load of smart answers. Were not all Gardai who post here and some of us have some genuine questions. After all it's a discussion forum and to be fair the Mod should have a little bit more understanding of this before he threw his tuppence in. I like reading this forum because my Da was on the Force for years but unfortunately he is no longer here.

Yaxihy

foreign wrote: »

To be honest, I don't really care if the people who are getting put into the back of a van or car get hurt, as long as a member doesn't get hurt by them. Remember, they are going in there because they have committed a crime.

Do you honestly think thats a fair comment Foreign? I mean I'm sure one could say that in general people will end up being guilty but I'm sure there are (possibly quite a few?) people who end up in the back of a Garda van in what turns out to be mass confusion (perhaps a riot scenario where the full facts arent established until later)

Either way, I personally think your comment is slightly thoughtless and juvenile, would a "guilty" person who urinated in public, but was courteous and cooperative with the arresting Gardai deserve to be killed in an overturned Garda vehicle?

goldie fish

Yaxihy wrote: »

Do you honestly think thats a fair comment Foreign? I mean I'm sure one could say that in general people will end up being guilty but I'm sure there are (possibly quite a few?) people who end up in the back of a Garda van in what turns out to be mass confusion (perhaps a riot scenario where the full facts arent established until later)

Either way, I personally think your comment is slightly thoughtless and juvenile, would a "guilty" person who urinated in public, but was courteous and cooperative with the arresting Gardai deserve to be killed in an overturned Garda vehicle?

The chances of that happening?

The chances of an unruly prisoner attacking and injuring other gardai while being transported in a normal patrol car?

How many prisoners have been killed while being carried in vans like this?

Yaxihy

goldie fish wrote: »

The chances of that happening?

The chances of an unruly prisoner attacking and injuring other gardai while being transported in a normal patrol car?

How many prisoners have been killed while being carried in vans like this?

The chances of that happening are small I'd imagine, thought that wasnt the point of my post, my point was questioning whether the "what happens to them doesnt matter" mentality is a fair one, sorry if it appeared otherwise

sdanseo

foreign wrote: »

To be honest, I don't really care if the people who are getting put into the back of a van or car get hurt, as long as a member doesn't get hurt by them. Remember, they are going in there because they have committed a crime.

First, they are innocent until proven guilty.

Second, so someone placed in the back of one of these vans deserves to be crushed to death in a van crash? That sounds fair.

Lots of respect for you, knowing you're a Guard etc, but the above sounds to me like a vindictive and unfair opinion and a case of judging all suspects as violent and worthless. Yes, they are under detention and yes, they need to be restrained in such a way that they cannot assault a member of AGS - but they are entitled to be treated fairly and safely.

goldie fish

In an ideal world you should be able to do everything in your power to prevent a prisoner from being injured while under arrest.

I like the idea of sedating them myself. It works for zoo animals.

twowheelsonly

charlemont wrote: »

YouTube is blocked in work so can't see it...


Is it an urban myth that the prison vans, the ones with the blacked out windows and steel compartments (they make the van's here in question look like the lap of luxury) have a detachable roof in case of accident ?


I heard that several times, If true it may be good for the prisoners safety but it certainly isn't good for the public's safety, Security risks are quiet obvious.

The Prison Vans have hatches but they're extremely secure, probably more so than the doors !! Also, you'd almost need a degree in engineering to open them :-) It's actually physically impossible to open them or to kick them open from inside each 'Cell'.

seavill

sdeire wrote: »

First, they are innocent until proven guilty.

Second, so someone placed in the back of one of these vans deserves to be crushed to death in a van crash? That sounds fair.

Lots of respect for you, knowing you're a Guard etc, but the above sounds to me like a vindictive and unfair opinion and a case of judging all suspects as violent and worthless. Yes, they are under detention and yes, they need to be restrained in such a way that they cannot assault a member of AGS - but they are entitled to be treated fairly and safely.

Is there an example of someone being crushed to death in a van crash?

I'm wondering how is it possible to get crushed to death in a cage like this?

Cedrus

seavill wrote: »

Is there an example of someone being crushed to death in a van crash?

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=crushed+to+death+in+a+van+crash

seavill wrote: »

I'm wondering how is it possible to get crushed to death in a cage like this?

You obviously have no understanding of risk analysis and prevention!

Clowns like you and other big thick civic guards on here remind me how hard it was to reduce casualties in the construction industry. Big dopey face "I'm not gunna chop my own fingers off" - He did. "I'm not going to fall off a ladder I've been on them since before you were born" - He did, backwards, spared his family the closed coffin at least.

Police in all countries do a tough job, and most deserve everyones support most of the time, but the "I don't care about criminals" attitude stinks and anyone with that attitude should retire and write angry letters to right wing newspapers.

seavill

Cedrus wrote: »

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=crushed+to+death+in+a+van+crash

You obviously have no understanding of risk analysis and prevention!

Clowns like you and other big thick civic guards on here remind me how hard it was to reduce casualties in the construction industry. Big dopey face "I'm not gunna chop my own fingers off" - He did. "I'm not going to fall off a ladder I've been on them since before you were born" - He did, backwards, spared his family the closed coffin at least.

Police in all countries do a tough job, and most deserve everyones support most of the time, but the "I don't care about criminals" attitude stinks and anyone with that attitude should retire and write angry letters to right wing newspapers.

Apologies mods but who the **** are you to judge me like that. I have not been part of this thread so far I have not commented on anything or no where have you or will you find on any thread I have posted on an attitude of I don't care about criminals.

I just asked two questions neither of which you answered by the way.

Take my second question I would say you would be more likely to get crushed to death in the back of a squad car from a high speed collision with a car v car side on impact or impact from behind, than the ability of a car to be able to do the same damage to a van with a reinforced steel cage as part of it. Now look at my logic there in my last sentenance and see what a idiotic post you just made

Cedrus

seavill wrote: »

Is there an example of someone being crushed to death in a van crash?

It has happened, I apologise for not leading you by the hand but you can research this yourself. Reports of secure transports accidents are not easy to find on the internet but your question is phrased simply as "van crashes". Anecdotally, secure transport accidents have occurred but, for reasons I can only speculate upon, I cannot find a precise example for you at this time. Again I apologise.

seavill wrote: »

I'm wondering how is it possible to get crushed to death in a cage like this?

The first step in risk analysis is to look at the task and the use of the machinery and other tools which will be required to complete it.
The second is to address the potential for accidents in normal execution of the above task and eliminate any portions of the task which pose a risk which is unnecessary.
Next, you address the potential for things to go wrong (and this is where I hope to answer your question). Could the van crash? Could the van overturn? Could the van be hit by a smaller vehicle? Could the van be hit by a larger vehicle? Could the van be hit on an overpass that would result in the van leaving the carriageway and falling to a road/railway below? Is the van structurally capable of such a fall/ impact? Could an intoxicated or otherwise disturbed prisoner affect the driving behaviour of the van driver? Could a hyped up driver leaving a stressful scene be adequately prepared for another adverse event?
Finally you weight the Hazards with a risk rating which is effectively a multiplier, if a hazard is minor, but likely then it can be weighted as high as an unlikely major hazard.
Therefore it does not always matter how unlikely a hazard is, a catastrophic result may still be the outcome.

seavill

Cedrus wrote: »

It has happened, I apologise for not leading you by the hand but you can research this yourself. Reports of secure transports accidents are not easy to find on the internet but your question is phrased simply as "van crashes". Anecdotally, secure transport accidents have occurred but, for reasons I can only speculate upon, I cannot find a precise example for you at this time. Again I apologise.

The first step in risk analysis is to look at the task and the use of the machinery and other tools which will be required to complete it.
The second is to address the potential for accidents in normal execution of the above task and eliminate any portions of the task which pose a risk which is unnecessary.
Next, you address the potential for things to go wrong (and this is where I hope to answer your question). Could the van crash? Could the van overturn? Could the van be hit by a smaller vehicle? Could the van be hit by a larger vehicle? Could the van be hit on an overpass that would result in the van leaving the carriageway and falling to a road/railway below? Is the van structurally capable of such a fall/ impact? Could an intoxicated or otherwise disturbed prisoner affect the driving behaviour of the van driver? Could a hyped up driver leaving a stressful scene be adequately prepared for another adverse event?
Finally you weight the Hazards with a risk rating which is effectively a multiplier, if a hazard is minor, but likely then it can be weighted as high as an unlikely major hazard.
Therefore it does not always matter how unlikely a hazard is, a catastrophic result may still be the outcome.

So again you have not managed to answer in all your waffle either of my questions.

Obviously you are trying to be smart in how I "phrased" my quesiton we are clearly talking about Garda vans not van crashes in general didn't think I needed to spell that out.

So the answer to my first question
"Is there an example of someone being crushed to death in a van crash?" (i.e. a caged van as we are talking about) - despite your two smart irrelevant answers - your answer to my question should have been "no I cannot find an example"

The second question
"I'm wondering how is it possible to get crushed to death in a cage like this?" I can phrase a different way to clarify which I explained in more detail in my second post. I would sugguest you are far more likely to be crushed travelling in the back of a squad car (usually everyday family cars with fancy lights) than you are in a reinforced steel cage. Yes you will be thrown around the place as there are no restraints which may cause its own injures but going back to my question and and sdires point about being "crushed to death" you failed in all your waffle to say yes you can. You can go on about risk assessment all you want but it was irrelevant to what was asked and you made no reference to what was asked.

I will take your second post as an apology instead

goldie fish

So it seems the accidents happened, millions of prisoners were crushed and the authorities covered it up.


That signals thread over to me....

sdanseo

goldie fish wrote: »

So it seems the accidents happened, millions of prisoners were crushed and the authorities covered it up.


That signals thread over to me....

That signals "I don't like the way the conversation has turned even mildly critical, let's close it immediately" to me.

AlekSmart

Cedrus wrote: »

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=crushed+to+death+in+a+van+crash

You obviously have no understanding of risk analysis and prevention!

Clowns like you and other big thick civic guards on here remind me how hard it was to reduce casualties in the construction industry. Big dopey face "I'm not gunna chop my own fingers off" - He did. "I'm not going to fall off a ladder I've been on them since before you were born" - He did, backwards, spared his family the closed coffin at least.

Police in all countries do a tough job, and most deserve everyones support most of the time, but the "I don't care about criminals" attitude stinks and anyone with that attitude should retire and write angry letters to right wing newspapers.

Its interesting that Cedrus and others seek to take a highly specific "Safety Related" issue and broaden it's concept substantially.

As a non-criminally intentioned citizen,I have no desire to put the likes of the Transit,or Transit Connect as used by the Gardai to the test.

However,having had the opportunity to look over some of the newer Connect models and also some used by the London Metropolitan Police,I'd be quite satisfied that all reasonable precautions have been engineered into the vehicles,taking into consideration the highly unpredictable nature of those who make up it's user base.

To make comparisons between Occuptional Safety and Law Enforcement situations is,to my mind,tenuous at least.

The first duty of the Gardai is the protection of public safety and maintenance of public order.

As long as they are adhering to these principles,I'm happy enough for those individuals for whom secure-transportation is deemed necessary,to enjoy a somewhat higher risk factor than the rest of us.

In this particular case,the best Risk-Analysis and Prevention would be not to place oneself in situations which could see you in a Maria ?

ectoraige

Cedrus wrote: »

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=crushed+to+death+in+a+van+crash

For the record, I went through the first fifty results and failed to find a relevant example. There were many people crushed by vans, including a mechanic crushed under the van he worked on, and many more crushed in cars. Also, three men died when their vehicle was crushed by a combine harvester, but they were in minivan. There was one case of a man who crashed into a tree and was crushed top death by his work equipment kept on a shelf behind him.

Not really the most useful or relevant link so.

Potential-Monke

Christ, this is going well...

The vans have been researched, are based on other countries (most likely the UK) and have all the safety boxes ticked. Even though if there were to be a crash, and the van overturned, the prisoner would get injured, but the current vans are seen as the most efficient and safest way to transport criminals, violent or not, to the station.

Short of a Transporter straight from Star Trek, i cannot think of a better, safer way to transport them without added expenditure or risk to members (No. 1 priority in my book).