The Art of debate is all but gone . .

Drumpot · 03-01-2013 06:11PM #1

Texting, tweeting and even forums like boards.ie have highlighted more then anything that the art of debate is all but dead. People are all about one line/word answers nowadays and most people cannot engage in any topic that is remotely emotive (I refer to the public service debate that is impossible to have without either side point scoring and allowing little objective discussion). .

I wouldnt blame online forums but the likes of Texting and tweeting hasnt helped, encouraging less in depth discussion and encouraging one line funny/smart responses. .

I find trying to even have engaging discussions with some of my more intellectually minded friends as difficult, particularly when its a topic that they are incapable of rationally discussing outside the realms of what is populist and conformed wisdom . .

C u l8er LOL, OMG, LMAO . . . .

thebigbiffo · 03-01-2013 06:11PM

Bollox!

Knifey Spoony · 03-01-2013 06:12PM

tl;dr

:pac:

Biggins · 03-01-2013 06:13PM

Drumpot wrote: »

The Art of debate is all but gone.

No!

Cee-Jay-Cee · 03-01-2013 06:14PM

I agree.

minidazzler · 03-01-2013 06:14PM

If you want to debate then join a debating club. Most people aren't interested in an actual debate and never have been. People have always been argumentative. They just wanna get their own points across.

maximoose · 03-01-2013 06:14PM

I wouldn't include boards.ie - venture out of After Hours and this place is full of great discussion. I'd have to do work if it wasn't for you guys.

mikom · 03-01-2013 06:16PM

Drumpot wrote: »

Texting, tweeting and even forums like boards.ie have highlighted more then anything that the art of debate is all but dead. People are all about one line/word answers nowadays and most people cannot engage in any topic that is remotely emotive (I refer to the public service debate that is impossible to have without either side point scoring and allowing little objective discussion). .

I wouldnt blame online forums but the likes of Texting and tweeting hasnt helped, encouraging less in depth discussion and encouraging one line funny/smart responses. .

I find trying to even have engaging discussions with some of my more intellectually minded friends as difficult, particularly when its a topic that they are incapable of rationally discussing outside the realms of what is populist and conformed wisdom . .

Indeed............

Drumpot wrote: »

Damn straight its hard, all the time . . Giggity giggity . .

partyatmygaff · 03-01-2013 06:19PM

I suppose you think back in the "good old days" everyone used to sit around and debate like scholars?

There are no less good debaters around than ever. In fact, i'd say there are way more than there ever has been. The only difference is that now everyone, skilled and unskilled has a way to be heard through the internet. All that's happened is the "signal to noise" ratio has taken a turn for the worse.

Lyaiera · 03-01-2013 06:20PM

minidazzler wrote: »

If you want to debate then join a debating club. Most people aren't interested in an actual debate and never have been. People have always been argumentative. They just wanna get their own points across.

I agree with your first two sentences. Most people aren't interested in a debate because debates are pretty pointless. Debates are performances, not discussions trying to get to the heart of or solve an issue or conflict.

Go to pretty much any debating society in the universities in Ireland you'll see something much more akin to an After Hours discussion (with a bit more high fallutin') than an attempt to figure out something.

Similarly, any of the official televised debates around election time: they're all about point scoring (winning voters.)

And that's the amazing thing about the internet. Previously people would have learned people present things to them through newspapers, radio and television, and these people were usually taken from someone out for themselves. Now you have people "on the ground" talking and arguing about issues. And while that means there's more complete rubbish being aired, you also have far more real viewpoints and valid ideas being given.

For Forks Sake · 03-01-2013 06:21PM

Drumpot wrote: »

Texting, tweeting and even forums like boards.ie have highlighted more then anything that the art of debate is all but dead. People are all about one line/word answers nowadays and most people cannot engage in any topic that is remotely emotive (I refer to the public service debate that is impossible to have without either side point scoring and allowing little objective discussion). .

I wouldnt blame online forums but the likes of Texting and tweeting hasnt helped, encouraging less in depth discussion and encouraging one line funny/smart responses. .

I find trying to even have engaging discussions with some of my more intellectually minded friends as difficult, particularly when its a topic that they are incapable of rationally discussing outside the realms of what is populist and conformed wisdom . .

C u l8er LOL, OMG, LMAO . . . .

shut your hole.

Czarcasm · 03-01-2013 06:23PM

I was pretty much with you OP up until this point-

Drumpot wrote: »

I find trying to even have engaging discussions with some of my more intellectually minded friends as difficult, particularly when its a topic that they are incapable of rationally discussing outside the realms of what is populist and conformed wisdom . .

I've read it and re-read it at least five times now to try and make sense of it, and if I'm correct in my interpretation, I think it's your friends way of politely hinting at you that you're actually talking shìte, as opposed to actually debating or discussing anything.

thier · 03-01-2013 06:25PM

Drumpot wrote: »

Texting, tweeting and even forums like boards.ie have highlighted more then anything that the art of debate is all but dead. People are all about one line/word answers nowadays and most people cannot engage in any topic that is remotely emotive (I refer to the public service debate that is impossible to have without either side point scoring and allowing little objective discussion). .

I wouldnt blame online forums but the likes of Texting and tweeting hasnt helped, encouraging less in depth discussion and encouraging one line funny/smart responses. .

I find trying to even have engaging discussions with some of my more intellectually minded friends as difficult, particularly when its a topic that they are incapable of rationally discussing outside the realms of what is populist and conformed wisdom . .

C u l8er LOL, OMG, LMAO . . . .

I agree with you entirely. In fact I count myself among those who cannot engage in a proper debate on a topic. Debating was never a part of my formal education. Unfortunately, at home I was never 'drawn out' on various topics that were being discussed. As a result I don't question things, have shamefully little curiosity about the world around me and know embarrassingly little about important topics like current affairs and politics.

It is something I am trying to improve but I really think that there should be more emphasis on debating in formal education (certainly in Ireland). The ability to debate is so much more important than the ability to memorise useless facts. I've met so many people who got 600 points in the leaving cert and can memorise stuff like the entire periodic table by heart but can't engage in an intellectual conversation beyond spouting out one-liner populist opinions.

krudler · 03-01-2013 06:26PM

Wha? there's some fantastic debates on here with really long well written answers, see any thread in the Atheism forum or the film discussion threads. AH is for one liner whoring (guilty as charged) but there's loads of proper discussions on other forums here.

Setun · 03-01-2013 06:26PM

Drumpot wrote: »

Texting, tweeting and even forums like boards.ie have highlighted more then anything that the art of debate is all but dead. People are all about one line/word answers nowadays and most people cannot engage in any topic that is remotely emotive (I refer to the public service debate that is impossible to have without either side point scoring and allowing little objective discussion). .

I wouldnt blame online forums but the likes of Texting and tweeting hasnt helped, encouraging less in depth discussion and encouraging one line funny/smart responses. .

I find trying to even have engaging discussions with some of my more intellectually minded friends as difficult, particularly when its a topic that they are incapable of rationally discussing outside the realms of what is populist and conformed wisdom . .

C u l8er LOL, OMG, LMAO . . . .

I agree in part to your central thesis. The speed of information-consumption has rapidly accelerated over the course of the 20th century, and what with the advent of web 2.0 and the reputation currencies fuelled by peer feedback systems such as 'thanks', 'likes' and 'retweets', the rewards are placed on who contributes firstly, rather than intelligently. Nevertheless, there are opportunities for reversing this feature of the modern "cyburban" psyche through the alteration of the workings of these feedback systems.

Motopepe · 03-01-2013 06:32PM

I've never been to "the realms of what is populist and conformed wisdom..."

The King of Moo · 03-01-2013 06:35PM

Drumpot wrote: »

Texting, tweeting and even forums like boards.ie have highlighted more then anything that the art of debate is all but dead. People are all about one line/word answers nowadays and most people cannot engage in any topic that is remotely emotive (I refer to the public service debate that is impossible to have without either side point scoring and allowing little objective discussion). .

I wouldnt blame online forums but the likes of Texting and tweeting hasnt helped, encouraging less in depth discussion and encouraging one line funny/smart responses. .

I find trying to even have engaging discussions with some of my more intellectually minded friends as difficult, particularly when its a topic that they are incapable of rationally discussing outside the realms of what is populist and conformed wisdom . .

C u l8er LOL, OMG, LMAO . . . .

This.

Sarn · 03-01-2013 06:52PM

Seventeen posts and no 'everyone enjoys a mass debate?'

For shame AH, for shame.

Annasopra · 03-01-2013 06:54PM

Setun wrote: »

I agree in part to your central thesis. The speed of information-consumption has rapidly accelerated over the course of the 20th century, and what with the advent of web 2.0 and the reputation currencies fuelled by peer feedback systems such as 'thanks', 'likes' and 'retweets', the rewards are placed on who contributes firstly, rather than intelligently. Nevertheless, there are opportunities for reversing this feature of the modern "cyburban" psyche through the alteration of the workings of these feedback systems.

How would you alter these feedback systems?

Biggins · 03-01-2013 06:56PM

mango salsa wrote: »

How would you alter these feedback systems?

Stop feeding the hamsters?

Thrill · 03-01-2013 06:57PM

CJC999 wrote: »

I agree.

I don't.

Chuck Stone · 03-01-2013 07:10PM

If it takes a lot of words to say what you have in mind, give it more thought.

Dennis Roth

Bastards.

Custardpi · 03-01-2013 07:18PM

Most debate on the internet from what I've seen is sadly more about boosting one's ego & sense of self-righteousness than actually taking the other person's views on board. Some topics (immigration for example) suffer from this particularly badly but few areas escape the back & forth lazy sniping, one-liners & failure to engage on any meaningful level. Take a look at this useful guide & then view an average discussion of more than a couple of pages on Boards or a similar site. I'd be surprised if you didn't find at least a couple. Argumentum Ad Hominem, Tu Quoque & Strawman arguments seem to be extremely common from what I've seen. Now, obviously that's just my personal experience & it's quite possible that there are internet forums which don't suffer as badly from these problems. I wonder how many threads would be left on discussion boards if moderators enforced a ban on those who fell afoul of these fallacies (some of which I've no doubt been guilty of myself on occasion).

Drumpot · 03-01-2013 07:24PM

I wasnt suggesting that I dont engage in a bit of quick witted banter, I just find in normal life that its a very difficult thing to find people who are capable of both the quick witt and have a genuinley interesting debate . .

I would not excuse myself in terms that I default to lazy replies and have weeks when I dont bother explaining my views (even to people who want to debate) .

I dont mind people having an issue with my original post in this thread, but if you are somebody who likes a good debate you either agree with my post or you would prefer to play the devils advocate and defend everybody else (just for the sake of debate) . .

Debate doesnt necessarily mean long winded posts or topics, it means explaining your views in an objective manner . .

In terms of going to debate forums, why can there be a mixture of both ? I am not saying this doesnt happen here, but more often then not threads even in the politics forum (Irish economy) turn into tit for tat emotive bullsh*t talk on both sides. . . I find the political and irish economy forum even harder to have serious discussions because people only go there to have a rant , Joe duffy style and arent interested in discussing anything outside of their limited misguided views .

I dont profess to be anymore gifted or educated or better then many of the boardies, but I am dissapointed with the general level of engagement that one can find in certain forums on certain topics . .

Drumpot · 03-01-2013 07:29PM

Motopepe wrote: »

I've never been to "the realms of what is populist and conformed wisdom..."

Anybody who lives in the hypocritic , self absorbed western civilastion has at some stage . .

Heres one for you . . Banks are bad, politicians are bad (or all the same) and the electorate/taxpayers are innocent bystanders in what happened in Ireland . .

I dont necessarily disagree with some aspects of these points but there is very much a misguided and ignorant reason why people love to think these views without digging deeper into why "banks are bad" politicians are "all the same" and why the taxpayer ends up paying for the mistakes of said devils . .

Czarcasm · 03-01-2013 07:30PM

Drumpot wrote: »

Debate doesnt necessarily mean long winded posts or topics

Basking in the irony.

kowloon · 03-01-2013 07:30PM

I remember everyone used to sit around the fireside and recite poetry. We don't have the time for it anymore, what with education and electricity to distract us.

For Forks Sake · 03-01-2013 07:31PM

Drumpot wrote: »

I wasnt suggesting that I dont engage in a bit of quick witted banter, I just find in normal life that its a very difficult thing to find people who are capable of both the quick witt and have a genuinley interesting debate . .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f68VXKMZT1Q

Drumpot · 03-01-2013 07:31PM

Czarcasm wrote: »

Basking in the irony.

Would you class my first 3 paragraph post as "long winded" ? . . Really, was it that long ?

Lyaiera · 03-01-2013 07:32PM

Drumpot wrote: »

I dont mind people having an issue with my original post in this thread, but if you are somebody who likes a good debate you either agree with my post or you would prefer to play the devils advocate and defend everybody else (just for the sake of debate) . .

It seems your idea of a reasonable debate is people disagreeing with you, seeing their error of their ways, then coming around.

castletownman · 03-01-2013 07:32PM

Whoever invented the iPhone was a real a-hole.

No but in all seriousness, I used to love going to the local and while away the night with some deadly, challenging sports questions. Them days are now ruined because someone will get out the iPhone or some other smartphone and look up the answer within minutes. And I won't even go into how much table quizzes have been ruined!

The Art of debate is all but gone . .

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