The Art of debate is all but gone . .

Drumpot

Texting, tweeting and even forums like boards.ie have highlighted more then anything that the art of debate is all but dead. People are all about one line/word answers nowadays and most people cannot engage in any topic that is remotely emotive (I refer to the public service debate that is impossible to have without either side point scoring and allowing little objective discussion). .

I wouldnt blame online forums but the likes of Texting and tweeting hasnt helped, encouraging less in depth discussion and encouraging one line funny/smart responses. .

I find trying to even have engaging discussions with some of my more intellectually minded friends as difficult, particularly when its a topic that they are incapable of rationally discussing outside the realms of what is populist and conformed wisdom . .

C u l8er LOL, OMG, LMAO . . . .

thebigbiffo

Bollox!

Knifey Spoony

tl;dr





:pac:

Biggins

Drumpot wrote: »

The Art of debate is all but gone.

No!

Cee-Jay-Cee

I agree.

minidazzler

If you want to debate then join a debating club. Most people aren't interested in an actual debate and never have been. People have always been argumentative. They just wanna get their own points across.

maximoose

I wouldn't include boards.ie - venture out of After Hours and this place is full of great discussion. I'd have to do work if it wasn't for you guys.

mikom

Drumpot wrote: »

Texting, tweeting and even forums like boards.ie have highlighted more then anything that the art of debate is all but dead. People are all about one line/word answers nowadays and most people cannot engage in any topic that is remotely emotive (I refer to the public service debate that is impossible to have without either side point scoring and allowing little objective discussion). .

I wouldnt blame online forums but the likes of Texting and tweeting hasnt helped, encouraging less in depth discussion and encouraging one line funny/smart responses. .

I find trying to even have engaging discussions with some of my more intellectually minded friends as difficult, particularly when its a topic that they are incapable of rationally discussing outside the realms of what is populist and conformed wisdom . .

Indeed............

Drumpot wrote: »

Damn straight its hard, all the time . . Giggity giggity . .

partyatmygaff

I suppose you think back in the "good old days" everyone used to sit around and debate like scholars?

There are no less good debaters around than ever. In fact, i'd say there are way more than there ever has been. The only difference is that now everyone, skilled and unskilled has a way to be heard through the internet. All that's happened is the "signal to noise" ratio has taken a turn for the worse.

Lyaiera

minidazzler wrote: »

If you want to debate then join a debating club. Most people aren't interested in an actual debate and never have been. People have always been argumentative. They just wanna get their own points across.

I agree with your first two sentences. Most people aren't interested in a debate because debates are pretty pointless. Debates are performances, not discussions trying to get to the heart of or solve an issue or conflict.

Go to pretty much any debating society in the universities in Ireland you'll see something much more akin to an After Hours discussion (with a bit more high fallutin') than an attempt to figure out something.

Similarly, any of the official televised debates around election time: they're all about point scoring (winning voters.)

And that's the amazing thing about the internet. Previously people would have learned people present things to them through newspapers, radio and television, and these people were usually taken from someone out for themselves. Now you have people "on the ground" talking and arguing about issues. And while that means there's more complete rubbish being aired, you also have far more real viewpoints and valid ideas being given.

For Forks Sake

Drumpot wrote: »

Texting, tweeting and even forums like boards.ie have highlighted more then anything that the art of debate is all but dead. People are all about one line/word answers nowadays and most people cannot engage in any topic that is remotely emotive (I refer to the public service debate that is impossible to have without either side point scoring and allowing little objective discussion). .

I wouldnt blame online forums but the likes of Texting and tweeting hasnt helped, encouraging less in depth discussion and encouraging one line funny/smart responses. .

I find trying to even have engaging discussions with some of my more intellectually minded friends as difficult, particularly when its a topic that they are incapable of rationally discussing outside the realms of what is populist and conformed wisdom . .

C u l8er LOL, OMG, LMAO . . . .

shut your hole.

Czarcasm

I was pretty much with you OP up until this point-

Drumpot wrote: »

I find trying to even have engaging discussions with some of my more intellectually minded friends as difficult, particularly when its a topic that they are incapable of rationally discussing outside the realms of what is populist and conformed wisdom . .

I've read it and re-read it at least five times now to try and make sense of it, and if I'm correct in my interpretation, I think it's your friends way of politely hinting at you that you're actually talking shìte, as opposed to actually debating or discussing anything.

thier

Drumpot wrote: »

Texting, tweeting and even forums like boards.ie have highlighted more then anything that the art of debate is all but dead. People are all about one line/word answers nowadays and most people cannot engage in any topic that is remotely emotive (I refer to the public service debate that is impossible to have without either side point scoring and allowing little objective discussion). .

I wouldnt blame online forums but the likes of Texting and tweeting hasnt helped, encouraging less in depth discussion and encouraging one line funny/smart responses. .

I find trying to even have engaging discussions with some of my more intellectually minded friends as difficult, particularly when its a topic that they are incapable of rationally discussing outside the realms of what is populist and conformed wisdom . .

C u l8er LOL, OMG, LMAO . . . .

I agree with you entirely. In fact I count myself among those who cannot engage in a proper debate on a topic. Debating was never a part of my formal education. Unfortunately, at home I was never 'drawn out' on various topics that were being discussed. As a result I don't question things, have shamefully little curiosity about the world around me and know embarrassingly little about important topics like current affairs and politics.

It is something I am trying to improve but I really think that there should be more emphasis on debating in formal education (certainly in Ireland). The ability to debate is so much more important than the ability to memorise useless facts. I've met so many people who got 600 points in the leaving cert and can memorise stuff like the entire periodic table by heart but can't engage in an intellectual conversation beyond spouting out one-liner populist opinions.

krudler

Wha? there's some fantastic debates on here with really long well written answers, see any thread in the Atheism forum or the film discussion threads. AH is for one liner whoring (guilty as charged) but there's loads of proper discussions on other forums here.

Setun

Drumpot wrote: »

Texting, tweeting and even forums like boards.ie have highlighted more then anything that the art of debate is all but dead. People are all about one line/word answers nowadays and most people cannot engage in any topic that is remotely emotive (I refer to the public service debate that is impossible to have without either side point scoring and allowing little objective discussion). .

I wouldnt blame online forums but the likes of Texting and tweeting hasnt helped, encouraging less in depth discussion and encouraging one line funny/smart responses. .

I find trying to even have engaging discussions with some of my more intellectually minded friends as difficult, particularly when its a topic that they are incapable of rationally discussing outside the realms of what is populist and conformed wisdom . .

C u l8er LOL, OMG, LMAO . . . .

I agree in part to your central thesis. The speed of information-consumption has rapidly accelerated over the course of the 20th century, and what with the advent of web 2.0 and the reputation currencies fuelled by peer feedback systems such as 'thanks', 'likes' and 'retweets', the rewards are placed on who contributes firstly, rather than intelligently. Nevertheless, there are opportunities for reversing this feature of the modern "cyburban" psyche through the alteration of the workings of these feedback systems.

Motopepe

I've never been to "the realms of what is populist and conformed wisdom..."

The King of Moo

Drumpot wrote: »

Texting, tweeting and even forums like boards.ie have highlighted more then anything that the art of debate is all but dead. People are all about one line/word answers nowadays and most people cannot engage in any topic that is remotely emotive (I refer to the public service debate that is impossible to have without either side point scoring and allowing little objective discussion). .

I wouldnt blame online forums but the likes of Texting and tweeting hasnt helped, encouraging less in depth discussion and encouraging one line funny/smart responses. .

I find trying to even have engaging discussions with some of my more intellectually minded friends as difficult, particularly when its a topic that they are incapable of rationally discussing outside the realms of what is populist and conformed wisdom . .

C u l8er LOL, OMG, LMAO . . . .

This.

Sarn

Seventeen posts and no 'everyone enjoys a mass debate?'

For shame AH, for shame.

Annasopra

Setun wrote: »

I agree in part to your central thesis. The speed of information-consumption has rapidly accelerated over the course of the 20th century, and what with the advent of web 2.0 and the reputation currencies fuelled by peer feedback systems such as 'thanks', 'likes' and 'retweets', the rewards are placed on who contributes firstly, rather than intelligently. Nevertheless, there are opportunities for reversing this feature of the modern "cyburban" psyche through the alteration of the workings of these feedback systems.

How would you alter these feedback systems?

Biggins

mango salsa wrote: »

How would you alter these feedback systems?

Stop feeding the hamsters?

Thrill

CJC999 wrote: »

I agree.

I don't.

Chuck Stone

If it takes a lot of words to say what you have in mind, give it more thought.

Dennis Roth

Bastards.

Custardpi

Most debate on the internet from what I've seen is sadly more about boosting one's ego & sense of self-righteousness than actually taking the other person's views on board. Some topics (immigration for example) suffer from this particularly badly but few areas escape the back & forth lazy sniping, one-liners & failure to engage on any meaningful level. Take a look at this useful guide & then view an average discussion of more than a couple of pages on Boards or a similar site. I'd be surprised if you didn't find at least a couple. Argumentum Ad Hominem, Tu Quoque & Strawman arguments seem to be extremely common from what I've seen. Now, obviously that's just my personal experience & it's quite possible that there are internet forums which don't suffer as badly from these problems. I wonder how many threads would be left on discussion boards if moderators enforced a ban on those who fell afoul of these fallacies (some of which I've no doubt been guilty of myself on occasion).

Drumpot

I wasnt suggesting that I dont engage in a bit of quick witted banter, I just find in normal life that its a very difficult thing to find people who are capable of both the quick witt and have a genuinley interesting debate . .

I would not excuse myself in terms that I default to lazy replies and have weeks when I dont bother explaining my views (even to people who want to debate) .

I dont mind people having an issue with my original post in this thread, but if you are somebody who likes a good debate you either agree with my post or you would prefer to play the devils advocate and defend everybody else (just for the sake of debate) . .

Debate doesnt necessarily mean long winded posts or topics, it means explaining your views in an objective manner . .

In terms of going to debate forums, why can there be a mixture of both ? I am not saying this doesnt happen here, but more often then not threads even in the politics forum (Irish economy) turn into tit for tat emotive bullsh*t talk on both sides. . . I find the political and irish economy forum even harder to have serious discussions because people only go there to have a rant , Joe duffy style and arent interested in discussing anything outside of their limited misguided views .

I dont profess to be anymore gifted or educated or better then many of the boardies, but I am dissapointed with the general level of engagement that one can find in certain forums on certain topics . .

Drumpot

Motopepe wrote: »

I've never been to "the realms of what is populist and conformed wisdom..."

Anybody who lives in the hypocritic , self absorbed western civilastion has at some stage . .

Heres one for you . . Banks are bad, politicians are bad (or all the same) and the electorate/taxpayers are innocent bystanders in what happened in Ireland . .

I dont necessarily disagree with some aspects of these points but there is very much a misguided and ignorant reason why people love to think these views without digging deeper into why "banks are bad" politicians are "all the same" and why the taxpayer ends up paying for the mistakes of said devils . .

Czarcasm

Drumpot wrote: »

Debate doesnt necessarily mean long winded posts or topics

Basking in the irony.

kowloon

I remember everyone used to sit around the fireside and recite poetry. We don't have the time for it anymore, what with education and electricity to distract us.

For Forks Sake

Drumpot wrote: »

I wasnt suggesting that I dont engage in a bit of quick witted banter, I just find in normal life that its a very difficult thing to find people who are capable of both the quick witt and have a genuinley interesting debate . .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f68VXKMZT1Q

Drumpot

Czarcasm wrote: »

Basking in the irony.

Would you class my first 3 paragraph post as "long winded" ? . . Really, was it that long ?

Lyaiera

Drumpot wrote: »

I dont mind people having an issue with my original post in this thread, but if you are somebody who likes a good debate you either agree with my post or you would prefer to play the devils advocate and defend everybody else (just for the sake of debate) . .

It seems your idea of a reasonable debate is people disagreeing with you, seeing their error of their ways, then coming around.

castletownman

Whoever invented the iPhone was a real a-hole.

No but in all seriousness, I used to love going to the local and while away the night with some deadly, challenging sports questions. Them days are now ruined because someone will get out the iPhone or some other smartphone and look up the answer within minutes. And I won't even go into how much table quizzes have been ruined!

Custardpi

castletownman wrote: »

Whoever invented the iPhone was a real a-hole.

No but in all seriousness, I used to love going to the local and while away the night with some deadly, challenging sports questions. Them days are now ruined because someone will get out the iPhone or some other smartphone and look up the answer within minutes. And I won't even go into how much table quizzes have been ruined!

Actually a lot of table quizzes now require participants to surrender their smartphones at the start, which should reduce this kind of cheating. Of course, those who carry more than one smartphone may be able to get around this.

Drumpot

Lyaiera wrote: »

It seems your idea of a reasonable debate is people disagreeing with you, seeing their error of their ways, then coming around.

No, I just like to be able to discuss some topics with people who are capable of giving clear objective points , but also being able to accept alternative views (even if they dont agree with them) . .

I am not adverse to being a hypocrite on this topic and as a salesperson I can certainly sound more intelligent then I really am, but the differance is that I self analyse and do try to be empathetic to alternative views . . Already there have been posts in this thread trying to debunk my views (even though I accept that I can be hypocritical like anybody else) by discrediting me. Its another strategy used (particularly in politics) used to distract discussion away from the topic in favour of debunking the poster/narrator.

Lyaiera

Drumpot wrote: »

No, I just like to be able to discuss some topics with people who are capable of giving clear objective points , but also being able to accept alternative views (even if they dont agree with them) . .

I am not adverse to being a hypocrite on this topic and as a salesperson I can certainly sound more intelligent then I really am, but the differance is that I self analyse and do try to be empathetic to alternative views . . Already there have been posts in this thread trying to debunk my views (even though I accept that I can be hypocritical like anybody else) by discrediting me. Its another strategy used (particularly in politics) used to distract discussion away from the topic in favour of debunking the poster/narrator.

How is that a response to what I said? Why did you quote me? In my sentence I was pointing out that you seem to believe that no-one can justifiably disagree with your op.

Czarcasm

Lyaiera wrote: »

How is that a response to what I said? Why did you quote me? In my sentence I was pointing out that you seem to believe that no-one can justifiably disagree with your op.

Shhish, the OP is trying to to sound like an intellectual by talking in riddles over your head, best just nod in silence and then slip off out the back when they're not looking...

Setun

mango salsa wrote: »

How would you alter these feedback systems?

Well my post was slightly tongue-in-cheek, and it's not the feedback system as such but how it might be appropriated by an online community. On boards for example, 'thanks' means different things in different fora - on After Hours the posts that often get the most thanks are the first couple of responses to an OP that feature either a meme, a quote from a popular television programme etc, whereas on the Humanities forum somebody will generally be 'thanked' if they contribute to a debate in a constructive manner. So it's largely the culture that surrounds the feedback system and how that culture reappropriates its usage in practice, which is in turn initially influenced by the construction of the system itself (i.e. the interface, the verb attached to the feedback - like, vote, thank, RT, and so on).

But that's all open to debate

Wacker The Attacker

I'm debating whether or not to go to the pub. Does this count?

Fromthetrees

Drumpot wrote: »

Texting, tweeting and even forums like boards.ie have highlighted more then anything that the art of debate is all but dead. People are all about one line/word answers nowadays and most people cannot engage in any topic that is remotely emotive (I refer to the public service debate that is impossible to have without either side point scoring and allowing little objective discussion). .

I wouldnt blame online forums but the likes of Texting and tweeting hasnt helped, encouraging less in depth discussion and encouraging one line funny/smart responses. .

I find trying to even have engaging discussions with some of my more intellectually minded friends as difficult, particularly when its a topic that they are incapable of rationally discussing outside the realms of what is populist and conformed wisdom . .

C u l8er LOL, OMG, LMAO . . . .

NO,

The Art of your debate is all but gone . .

Drumpot

Lyaiera wrote: »

How is that a response to what I said? Why did you quote me? In my sentence I was pointing out that you seem to believe that no-one can justifiably disagree with your op.

How did you come to that conclusion ? Anybody can disagree with my OP and have an engaging debate above personal insults and be right in their own mind. Debate isnt always about right or wrong, it can be about interpretation. .

If you feel I was saying people can only agree with me or argue for the sake of it, that is not what I meant . .

I havent professed to be the best debater (never was part of those debater classes) and I am not looking down on people as I enjoy banter aswell. I was simpy stating that the art of debate in general is dieing and with the advent of tweets and texts, its becoming more popular to be quick witted then engaging . .

K-9

The internet is now mainstream so everybody has an opinion. Debate is still there, you just have to look harder and ignore the noise.

jd007

Am I for or against the motion?

Drumpot

Czarcasm wrote: »

Shhish, the OP is trying to to sound like an intellectual by talking in riddles over your head, best just nod in silence and then slip off out the back when they're not looking...

I would consider myself to be articulate more then to be of above average intelligence . .

I accept it intimidates some people, but Im not going to apologise for being able to put my thoughts on paper (even if those thoughts are wrong or unpopular) . .

I dont profess to be right even in this topic, I just write with confidence . .

9959

Custardpi wrote: »

Actually a lot of table quizzes now require participants to surrender their smartphones at the start, which should reduce this kind of cheating. Of course, those who carry more than one smartphone may be able to get around this.

I carry no fewer than seven smartphones to a table quiz.
They usually think they're 'well up yo you' after confiscating five, but if you secrete one in your sphincter and stitch one to the inside of your shirt collar then you should be grand.

Remember Reg Dwight is Elton John's real name!

Motopepe

If to debate is more preferable than to argue,then debate, by all means,... debate!

DonkeyStyle \o/

The Humanities forum sounds more like what you're after, OP.