Are most people non racist in public but actually racist in private.

pragmatic1 · 02-01-2013 11:26PM

Killer Wench wrote: »

Yes. Through media and upbringing, racism, or more specifically racialized assumptions, have been pounded into us since youth. Racism survives because of its subversive nature. As a Black American in 2013, I am more threatened by the guidance counselor who tells me I should be a childcare provider than I am a boogeyman wearing white sheets.

I think I get what you mean. It's like covert racism. Irish don't really deal with racism anymore but there's still a perception that we're fond of alcohol, fighting and a bit dumber than other Europeans.

Chuck Stone · 02-01-2013 11:27PM

Media outlets like the Daily Mail like to pluck silly overreactions by idiots and go 'see - it's political correctness gone mad that they won't allow you to be good ol' blokes like Bernard Manning and Jim Davidson'.

Then, all the droolers who form their opinions based on bite-sized Daily Fail non-stories say 'yeah what's wrong with the Muslamics and Blacks getting all pissed-off about a bit of harmless stereotyping - sure it's only a bit of fun'.

Etc.

Project Werewolf · 02-01-2013 11:45PM

We are a tolerant society, so tolerant in fact that people suffering acts of racism all over the world flee here to escape them. We, as a society, give them food and shelter while they seek asylum and a safe community to live when it is granted.

We absorbed hundreds of thousands of Eastern Europeans with little problems, no race riots, no far right groups emerging.

No one can convince me that Irish people are racist. Racist incidents will happen, but they will be few in number, relatively minor, and certainly won't be accepted or condoned by Irish society as a whole.

Killer Wench · 03-01-2013 03:16AM

woodoo wrote: »

I suppose it would depend on the context. I'd imagine it may be different if an adult did the same.

Did you experience much racism growing up in america. Did you grow up in the south or the north.

Eh, technically the midwest. Describing experiences of racism is complex because of one can be victim to systematic, institutional, and individual forms of racism. I have been called the n-word and I have had a swastika drawn on my car, but as mentioned earlier in the thread, I can shrug off overt racism. It is the deeply ingrained beliefs that cause the most harm because people don't talk about them, but they will allow for small slights to re-affirm their ignorant beliefs.

Killer Wench · 03-01-2013 03:18AM

pragmatic1 wrote: »

I think I get what you mean. It's like covert racism. Irish don't really deal with racism anymore but there's still a perception that we're fond of alcohol, fighting and a bit dumber than other Europeans.

Surprisingly, I think this stereotype is reinforced more by Irish-Americans than it is Irish people. I don't know how many Irish-Americans who excuse their quick tempers and fondness for drinking as their "Irishness". :rolleyes:

Killer Wench · 03-01-2013 03:30AM

Maybe not racist but certainly ignorant.

old hippy · 03-01-2013 01:37PM

Project Werewolf wrote: »

We are a tolerant society, so tolerant in fact that people suffering acts of racism all over the world flee here to escape them. We, as a society, give them food and shelter while they seek asylum and a safe community to live when it is granted.

We absorbed hundreds of thousands of Eastern Europeans with little problems, no race riots, no far right groups emerging.

No one can convince me that Irish people are racist. Racist incidents will happen, but they will be few in number, relatively minor, and certainly won't be accepted or condoned by Irish society as a whole.

I can only suggest you ask your friends who may be of different colour or not originally from Ireland about how they have fared over the years. I guarantee that every last one of them will have experienced some form of racism.

To deny it happens on a daily basis up and down Ireland, is akin to burying one's head in the sand, ostrich like.

I also recommend the book "Racism & Anti-Racism in Ireland" by Ronit Lentin and Robbie McVeigh.

Oranage2 · 03-01-2013 01:46PM

old hippy wrote: »

I can only suggest you ask your friends who may be of different colour or not originally from Ireland about how they have fared over the years. I guarantee that every last one of them will have experienced some form of racism.

To deny it happens on a daily basis up and down Ireland, is akin to burying one's head in the sand, ostrich like.

I also recommend the book "Racism & Anti-Racism in Ireland" by Ronit Lentin and Robbie McVeigh.

Ask somebody that's fat or ask somebody with red hair or somebody that wore a stupid jumper to the pub, its just a bit of slagging, its not like real racism where a black/oriental person can't walk down the street without being attacked. Sure we're differently a little ignorant but i wouldn't see us as racist.

old hippy · 03-01-2013 01:50PM

Oranage2 wrote: »

Ask somebody that's fat or ask somebody with red hair or somebody that wore a stupid jumper to the pub, its just a bit of slagging, its not like real racism where a black/oriental person can't walk down the street without being attacked. Sure we're differently a little ignorant but i wouldn't see us as racist.

Real racism or casual racism or plain ignorance is wrong, uncalled for and offensive. Why oh why do people try and defend it?

Btw, "oriental" is an archaic and offensive term. I know you're not using it deliberately and probably don't know any better but am just pointing out.

Annasopra · 03-01-2013 01:52PM

old hippy wrote: »

Real racism or casual racism or plain ignorance is wrong, uncalled for and offensive. Why oh why do people try and defend it?

Btw, "oriental" is an archaic and offensive term. I know you're not using it deliberately and probably don't know any better but am just pointing out.

That's what I was just thinking. As well why on earth is there a need to distinguish between racism and "real racism"?

Madam_X · 03-01-2013 01:56PM

old hippy wrote: »

I can only suggest you ask your friends who may be of different colour or not originally from Ireland about how they have fared over the years. I guarantee that every last one of them will have experienced some form of racism.

To deny it happens on a daily basis up and down Ireland, is akin to burying one's head in the sand, ostrich like.

I also recommend the book "Racism & Anti-Racism in Ireland" by Ronit Lentin and Robbie McVeigh.

I think they're simply saying Ireland isn't an inherently, endemically racist society though - and that's not the same as denying there are racist incidents. Of course there are unfortunately - numbskulls in every country.

Btw, what's so offensive about "oriental"?

old hippy · 03-01-2013 02:01PM

Madam_X wrote: »

I think they're simply saying Ireland isn't an inherently, endemically racist society though - and that's not the same as denying there are racist incidents. Of course there are unfortunately - numbskulls in every country.

Btw, what's so offensive about "oriental"?

It was pointed out to me as far back as the 70s that people from East Asia & the far East feel uncomfortable with the term and it's much fallen out of use. Certainly my Japanese family and friends would be somewhat insulted if I was to refer to them as that. You could compare it to British people calling Americans "colonials", I suppose

There's worse epithets than that when referring to the peoples of that region, of course. We've heard them all, over the years - but there's no harm in pointing it out. As I said, I'm certain the poster himself meant no offense.

dixiedan · 03-01-2013 02:08PM

old hippy wrote: »

Btw, "oriental" is an archaic and offensive term. I know you're not using it deliberately and probably don't know any better but am just pointing out.

Maybe a bit off topic, but why is oriental an archaic and offensive term? My brother bought the ma an oriental rug from the far east when he was travelling some years ago ... and the term oriental rug is quite common.

And I have to say that your final remark is quite condescending and patronising.

Higher · 03-01-2013 02:12PM

Project Werewolf wrote: »

We are a tolerant society, so tolerant in fact that people suffering acts of racism all over the world flee here to escape them. We, as a society, give them food and shelter while they seek asylum and a safe community to live when it is granted.

We absorbed hundreds of thousands of Eastern Europeans with little problems, no race riots, no far right groups emerging.

No one can convince me that Irish people are racist. Racist incidents will happen, but they will be few in number, relatively minor, and certainly won't be accepted or condoned by Irish society as a whole.

I don't think that disproves anything. Eastern europeans are white, catholic (or christian anyway) and already subscribe to our values. They have almost identical characteristics to the Irish. The cultural clash between Irish and Eastern Europeans would be non existent.

Quite different where the immigrant in question is Muslim or from Africa. I have no idea if Ireland is racist to be honest. It is probably a lot less racist then the Mediterannean and Eastern European Countries anyway.

Mardy Bum · 03-01-2013 02:16PM

dixiedan wrote: »

Maybe a bit off topic, but why is oriental an archaic and offensive term? My brother bought the ma an oriental rug from the far east when he was travelling some years ago ... and the term oriental rug is quite common.

And I have to say that your final remark is quite condescending and patronising.

Edward Said made it taboo for some.

Project Werewolf · 03-01-2013 02:23PM

old hippy wrote: »

I can only suggest you ask your friends who may be of different colour or not originally from Ireland about how they have fared over the years. I guarantee that every last one of them will have experienced some form of racism.

To deny it happens on a daily basis up and down Ireland, is akin to burying one's head in the sand, ostrich like.

I also recommend the book "Racism & Anti-Racism in Ireland" by Ronit Lentin and Robbie McVeigh.

Are you trying to tell me that Ireland is inherently racist? That it is accepted and condoned by Irish society? I said that acts if racism do happen but nowhere on the scale that could be considered a national characteristic.

There will always be a certain of racist incidents just like there will always be a certain of crime and drug abuse in society. There are a lot of initiatives in place to try to reduce it as much as possible, and I wouldn't stand for it if I came across it.

You seem intent on pushing the idea that Irish society as a whole is racist.

Reekwind · 03-01-2013 02:25PM

Project Werewolf wrote: »

You seem intent on pushing the idea that Irish society as a whole is racist.

A notion hardly dispelled by some of the statements in this very thread...

Nodin · 03-01-2013 02:30PM

Reekwind wrote: »

A notion hardly dispelled by some of the statements in this very thread...

Indeed.

It's safe to say theres certainly racism in the country, but we are far from the worst for it.

Project Werewolf · 03-01-2013 02:30PM

Higher wrote: »

I don't think that disproves anything. Eastern europeans are white, catholic (or christian anyway) and already subscribe to our values. They have almost identical characteristics to the Irish. The cultural clash between Irish and Eastern Europeans would be non existent.

Quite different where the immigrant in question is Muslim or from Africa. I have no idea if Ireland is racist to be honest. It is probably a lot less racist then the Mediterannean and Eastern European Countries anyway.

Eastern Europeans still have a different culture from us, more similiar than Arabs or Africans, but different nonetheless. They did integrate well into Irish society, far better than can be expected anywhere else in the world, with very few problems considering.

An extreme example would be if that kind of population movement happened in the Balkans. It would literally have caused a war.

666irishguy · 03-01-2013 03:05PM

I think few people are Jim Crowe level racist in Ireland, but a lot of people will talk about things they may not like about certain cultural practices or perceived stereotypes in private. In my own experience it is often regarding Islamic cultures and their treatment of women or regarding the amount of radicalism that has happened in other parts of Europe such as the UK. The Polish immigration and integration example is a bad example of how non racist we are though. They are for the most part Catholic Europeans from a traditionally poor and agrarian society with a history of having unwanted visits and stays from the neighbours. Remind you of anybody else in Europe? I think like a previous poster said, if the same number of people from for example an African or Islamic country showed up in the morning, things would be very different. I doubt a lot of people would be able to handle it rationally at all.

FTA69 · 03-01-2013 03:20PM

Regarding my thread about toilet attendants, my main problem was 1) your man in question was an arsehole and 2) in general I felt uncomfortable having migrant workers in the toilets helping people to wash their hands for coins, regardless of whether or not they are willing participants in these jobs (which they are). The fact is that in Ireland and the UK the vast, vast majority of people doing these jobs are Africans. In Ireland exclusively so.

This thread was then hijacked by someone who tried to reassure me that racism was grand, misrepresented my original post and then tried to refer to Africans as a "non tax paying disease" to paraphrase. There was a bit of PC hype in that thread, but most of it was a reaction to someone with an obvious and deep-rooted racist view of the world.

FTA69 · 03-01-2013 03:25PM

Also I've witnessed racism in Ireland on many occasions while working in pubs in clubs. From grown, wealthy men pulling the "slanty-eyes" face to Chinese fellas selling pizza slices to customers talking to Latvian barmaids like they were children with severe learning difficulties. I lost count of the people I'd to toss out of one club for blatant racist abuse toward the toilet attendants I've mentioned above. The taxi issue is well known and publicised. If I as a white Irish person could have witnessed that then I imagine someone who is black African will pick up on it a lot more.

Many immigrants have told me that Ireland is a fantastic place to live and that they love the people. They will also however, tell you they have at times encountered racism at one stage. I don't think that hard-core, political racism is woven into the Irish fabric but the absence of right-wing movements etc does not mean there isn't a hefty streak of it there either on an informal basis.

Project Werewolf · 03-01-2013 03:33PM

666irishguy wrote: »

I think few people are Jim Crowe level racist in Ireland, but a lot of people will talk about things they may not like about certain cultural practices or perceived stereotypes in private. In my own experience it is often regarding Islamic cultures and their treatment of women or regarding the amount of radicalism that has happened in other parts of Europe such as the UK. The Polish immigration and integration example is a bad example of how non racist we are though. They are for the most part Catholic Europeans from a traditionally poor and agrarian society with a history of having unwanted visits and stays from the neighbours. Remind you of anybody else in Europe? I think like a previous poster said, if the same number of people from for example an African or Islamic country showed up in the morning, things would be very different. I doubt a lot of people would be able to handle it rationally at all.

We can only guess at what would happen if that amount of Arabs or Africans arrived. We have seen what happened when that amount of Eastern Europeans arrived and that was encouraging.

I doubt it would be as smooth with Africans or Arabs but I don't think it would be as bad as some people would like to believe.

Higher · 03-01-2013 03:34PM

FTA69 wrote: »

Regarding my thread about toilet attendants, my main problem was 1) your man in question was an arsehole and 2) in general I felt uncomfortable having migrant workers in the toilets helping people to wash their hands for coins, regardless of whether or not they are willing participants in these jobs (which they are). The fact is that in Ireland and the UK the vast, vast majority of people doing these jobs are Africans. In Ireland exclusively so.

This thread was then hijacked by someone who tried to reassure me that racism was grand, misrepresented my original post and then tried to refer to Africans as a "non tax paying disease" to paraphrase. There was a bit of PC hype in that thread, but most of it was a reaction to someone with an obvious and deep-rooted racist view of the world.

During the Navy v Notre Dame game weekend I saw a bunch of Americans going mental in temple Bar. Screaming that all the toilet attendants in the Temple Bar pubs were black and that this was such a racist country. I never actually thought about how it comes across to tourists until that night to be honest. It does look bad. We know they are there voluntarily but that group of tourists clearly didnt!

Higher · 03-01-2013 03:36PM

Project Werewolf wrote: »

We can only guess at what would happen if that amount of Arabs or Africans arrived. We have seen what happened when that amount of Eastern Europeans arrived and that was encouraging.

I doubt it would be as smooth with Africans or Arabs but I don't think it would be as bad as some people would like to believe.

Are you joking?

If 150,000 Africans or Muslims arrived in the space of 3 years there would be literally uproar.

666irishguy · 03-01-2013 03:43PM

Higher wrote: »

During the Navy v Notre Dame game weekend I saw a bunch of Americans going mental in temple Bar. Screaming that all the toilet attendants in the Temple Bar pubs were black and that this was such a racist country. I never actually thought about how it comes across to tourists until that night to be honest. It does look bad. We know they are there voluntarily but that group of tourists clearly didnt!

Sounds like they got a mirror held up to their own culture and of how overtly racist they once were. However from what I am told by a friend who visited a few parts of Dixie (Georgia and Alabama and a bit of Texas) a while back, they are still as good as segregated in some places and are not shy about telling a white European about their views in private.

Chinasea · 03-01-2013 05:10PM

Project Werewolf wrote: »

Are you trying to tell me that Ireland is inherently racist? That it is accepted and condoned by Irish society? I said that acts if racism do happen but nowhere on the scale that could be considered a national characteristic.

As Gerry Ryan used to say 'the racist monster is getting more and more oxegen in Ireland' and looking at the recent study carried out by the The Equality Authority and ESRI report December 2012 ‘Analysing the Experience of Discrimination in Ireland’ the findings are pretty shameful imo.

It clearly shows worrying trends in the wrong direction, and from an inherent nomadic nation who has had every opportunity to learn from failings in other countries towards its immigrants etc, the findings in this report are shambolic to say the least. There is no rose tinting of these facts sadly.

The report uncovers the fact that there has been in increase in “serious discrimination” against black people in Ireland. The Most Common Occasion for Discrimination was while Seeking Work". Sadly, The study is a follow up to a similar survey in 2004 and while there is relatively little change overall, there was a rise in serious discrimination: of those who reported discrimination, the percentage reporting that it had a serious effect on their lives increased from 25% in 2004 to 32% in 2010. The figures were based on an analysis of the Central Statistics Office’s Quarterly National Household Survey from 2010 which questioned people about their experiences of discrimination. “Discrimination remains an enormous challenge to Irish society, said Renee Dempsey, CEO of the Equality Author2012.

And again, a seperate report by The Immigrant Council of Ireland's preliminary figures for 2012 show an average of one serious racist attack per week.

These reports and the throwaway prejudice jibes I have heard on a REGULAR basis in 2012 from taxi drivers, old Aunties, fellow collegues, politicanis, a judge, against 'non Irish' people confirms to me OP, that the latter part of your rhetorical question is a big old shameful YES.

Death and Taxes · 03-01-2013 05:13PM

Chinasea wrote: »

As Gerry Ryan used to say 'the racist monster is getting more and more oxegen in Ireland' and looking at the recent study carried out by the The Equality Authority and ESRI report December 2012 ‘Analysing the Experience of Discrimination in Ireland’ the findings are pretty shameful imo.

It clearly shows worrying trends in the wrong direction, and from an inherent nomadic nation who has had every opportunity to learn from failings in other countries towards its immigrants etc, the findings in this report are shambolic to say the least. There is no rose tinting of these facts sadly.

The report uncovers the fact that there has been in increase in “serious discrimination” against black people in Ireland. The Most Common Occasion for Discrimination was while Seeking Work". Sadly, The study is a follow up to a similar survey in 2004 and while there is relatively little change overall, there was a rise in serious discrimination: of those who reported discrimination, the percentage reporting that it had a serious effect on their lives increased from 25% in 2004 to 32% in 2010. The figures were based on an analysis of the Central Statistics Office’s Quarterly National Household Survey from 2010 which questioned people about their experiences of discrimination. “Discrimination remains an enormous challenge to Irish society, said Renee Dempsey, CEO of the Equality Author2012.

And again, a seperate report by The Immigrant Council of Ireland's preliminary figures for 2012 show an average of one serious racist attack per week.

These reports and the throwaway prejudice jibes I have heard on a REGULAR basis in 2012 from taxi drivers, old Aunties, fellow collegues, politicanis, a judge, against 'non Irish' people confirms to me OP, that the latter part of your rhetorical question is a big old shameful YES.

Not to mention some of the obnoxious posts that were made on a thread which was opened on the very thread that you mentioned.

old hippy · 03-01-2013 06:40PM

666irishguy wrote: »

Sounds like they got a mirror held up to their own culture and of how overtly racist they once were. However from what I am told by a friend who visited a few parts of Dixie (Georgia and Alabama and a bit of Texas) a while back, they are still as good as segregated in some places and are not shy about telling a white European about their views in private.

There is no doubt an unofficial form of segregation exists in the South. But then there is also the ghettoisation and the legacy of Jim Crowe, it's not surprising that there is a gulf between people. It's tied up in race and poverty.

I visited Georgia last year and saw diversity, people living in harmony but also people living very much apart. Beautiful, sad and odd at the same time.

Mr_Spaceman · 03-01-2013 06:52PM

The Chinese - a great bunch of lads

Are most people non racist in public but actually racist in private.

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