Afraid to call in sick. :(

martingriff · 25-12-2012 09:29PM

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Cracker, you have a cough and a cold, your not on deaths door, it's Christmas week and your not showing up. I know your sick but if your that sick they'll send you home anyway once you turn up, nobody wants somebody coughing and spluttering on them this time of year. (especially if your in the Hospitality industry?).
If your in a Job that winds down at Christmas you could probably stay at home, but if your on probation in a business that is busy at Christmas and somebody else has to carry the can for you I wouldn't fancy your chances of holding on to the Job.
Go in to work. If you had the flu I'd understand but taking a week off for a cold is a bit much.

Did you read the full OP. Go in and they will tell you go up my bottom. Probation should not come in to it. I am not saying they can't extend it I think that would be ok as long as they explain it. Your sick OP stay home do not go in.

monkeypants · 25-12-2012 09:41PM

martingriff wrote: »

If they fire you for been sick witch can happen then it is terrible state of affairs

I've had to fire people over absence. Not pleasant, but that was the end result of the process that I had to follow.

martingriff · 25-12-2012 09:48PM

monkeypants wrote: »

I've had to fire people over absence. Not pleasant, but that was the end result of the process that I had to follow.

What do you mean by absence though. I mean was it some thing they never told you about, had to suspicions that they were not really sick.

monkeypants · 25-12-2012 10:04PM

martingriff wrote: »

What do you mean by absence though. I mean was it some thing they never told you about, had to suspicions that they were not really sick.

Too many instances of sick leave. Some were certified, but many weren't, which is bizarre as we've a free company doctor who hands out certs like biccies. In the end, too much time away calls into question an employee's suitability for a role. I'm generally fairly understanding, but I cannot ignore the policy for long.

We've a fairly young workforce who tend to view work as an extension of college; that it's optional and a hangover is a genuine illness. It doesn't help when they're friends with a HR manager on Facebook.

A lot of them don't get sick pay, so it doesn't cost me anything, right? Wrong. I have work that needs doing and a job that I can't hire someone else for because the seat is occupied by someone who isn't doing the work.

By the way, in fifteen years of full-time work I've taken zero sick days. I was sent home once in early 2000 because I worked in a call centre and I'd lost my voice completely.

Wanderer2010 · 25-12-2012 10:39PM

monkeypants wrote: »

I've had to fire people over absence. Not pleasant, but that was the end result of the process that I had to follow.

Then i assume your workplace is a non-unionised place? Plus is it you doing the firing, usually that decision is made by a higher up after several warnings etc, could be wrong as I dont know your own case.

As for being sick, if you are out sick, then its not the end of the world, companies are only cracking down on it lately because of recession etc and putting more pressure on people to get more done. These back to work interviews are borderline illegal- if you have a cert signed by the doctor then that should say it all. You were out, it was certified, no questions about how suitable you are to return, adding up the days etc, to be used against you. I would certainly make a complaint if I were treated like that. I know the OP is anxious as they arent in a permanent job, but so many people do it and get away with it so if you cant beat them then at least join them I say.

Wanderer2010 · 25-12-2012 10:42PM

monkeypants wrote: »

By the way, in fifteen years of full-time work I've taken zero sick days. I was sent home once in early 2000 because I worked in a call centre and I'd lost my voice completely.

By the way. absolutely NOBODY cares about this, only you. It doesnt matter if you spent 20years with not one sick day to your name, you dont get any thanks, you dont get paid extra and the cpmpany will continue to function with or without you. Its only a personal gain to you that you have so little sick days; certainly if you think everyone has this goal in mind, then Im sure that has been revised by now

Eoin · 25-12-2012 11:30PM

martingriff wrote: »

If they fire you for been sick witch can happen then it is terrible state of affairs

It depends on how much sick leave there is. If it's "sick leave" every other Monday after a long session in the boozer, then that's not a terrible state of affairs.

If it's genuine illness, but means that the employee can't do their job that they're paid for, then unfortunately, that's fair enough too - if not pleasant.

If you think that's bad, it's a hell of a lot worse in the States and other places.

martingriff wrote: »

No offence but why should he do all this. If he is sick and the doctor has told him to take time off and take a cert it should be up to the employer if they want to prove he is not sick.

Because the OP is on probation and needs to prove himself if he wants a permanent contract. Someone taking a good bit of sick leave while on probation doesn't look good.

gozunda wrote: »

then subjecting employees to such inquisitions has an negative effect such as creating an atmosphere of fear of reporting in when actually ill. This is counter-productive to a good working environment imo. In fact This thread highlights this issue very well - "Afraid to call in Sick" - is this what employers really want?

There's a tipping point between someone being afraid to ring in sick - which is not good - and employees knowing that they can't take a duvet day and call it sick leave and get away with it whenever they want. The latter is perfectly OK IMO.

And again, the back to work meetings are not necessarily all about inquisitions and can be useful, but I've already gone through that.

monkeypants · 26-12-2012 12:45AM

These things are done with a HR manager, to keep things fair and equitable. No union involved. All processes followed are documented and agreed to by the employee when beginning work.

I don't mind people taking time off when they're sick. I understand that presenteeism can be a problem too. I just want people to work their 40 hour week, collect their paycheque and get on with their lives. Someone who takes three days off at the first sign of a sniffle is a pain in the ass. I view the back to work interview as a way for me to identify anything else going on in the employee's life that could be causing them hassle and see if I can help in any way.

monkeypants · 26-12-2012 12:50AM

Wanderer2010 wrote: »

By the way. absolutely NOBODY cares about this, only you. It doesnt matter if you spent 20years with not one sick day to your name, you dont get any thanks, you dont get paid extra and the cpmpany will continue to function with or without you. Its only a personal gain to you that you have so little sick days; certainly if you think everyone has this goal in mind, then Im sure that has been revised by now

It wasn't and isn't a goal, it's just the way that it's worked out. I've never asked or expected anything extra for it, I simply haven't needed to take any sick time. The company will certainly function without me as in those fifteen years I have moved jobs several times.

Wanderer2010 · 26-12-2012 02:05AM

monkeypants wrote: »

These things are done with a HR manager, to keep things fair and equitable. No union involved. All processes followed are documented and agreed to by the employee when beginning work.

I don't mind people taking time off when they're sick. I understand that presenteeism can be a problem too. I just want people to work their 40 hour week, collect their paycheque and get on with their lives. Someone who takes three days off at the first sign of a sniffle is a pain in the ass. I view the back to work interview as a way for me to identify anything else going on in the employee's life that could be causing them hassle and see if I can help in any way.

That sounds a bit dodgy with your union comment every employee is entitled to fair representation and certainly you sound like a real company man. The back to work interview call a spade a spade its a way to induce guilt and make it awkward to go out sick again despite a doctors cert. Companies are known for that kind of bullying sadly

Eoin · 26-12-2012 02:46AM

Wanderer2010 wrote: »

That sounds a bit dodgy with your union comment every employee is entitled to fair representation and certainly you sound like a real company man. The back to work interview call a spade a spade its a way to induce guilt and make it awkward to go out sick again despite a doctors cert. Companies are known for that kind of bullying sadly

It's not a disciplinary procedure, therefore there is no need for unions to be involved.

Do you agree that employees should not disguise duvet days as sick leave, or do you think that's ok to do?

Fiery mutant · 26-12-2012 07:34AM

Wanderer2010 wrote: »

That sounds a bit dodgy with your union comment every employee is entitled to fair representation and certainly you sound like a real company man. The back to work interview call a spade a spade its a way to induce guilt and make it awkward to go out sick again despite a doctors cert. Companies are known for that kind of bullying sadly

Doctors certs are handed out like confetti these days. I heard of a instance last year where some journalist visited 10 GP's last year around the country to get sick notes, and made it plain to the GP's that he only wanted the note to get away from work, and of the 10 visited, 7 gave the note without issue, 2 after a bit of a discussion, and only 1 flatly refused.

I have had employees ask for time off for whatever reason, been refused the time off, either because staffing levels at the time didn't allow for it, or for any other reason, and then they turn up for work on the day with a doctors note saying they have to be off for a few days due to such and such. Now obviously this is not always the case, but there is a culture of abusing these notes IMO.

If it was me OP, I'd do everything I can to get up and go in and work, if you are really that sick, they will send you home.

26-12-2012 09:00AM

monkeypants wrote: »

We've a fairly young workforce who tend to view work as an extension of college; that it's optional and a hangover is a genuine illness. It doesn't help when they're friends with a HR manager on Facebook.

This says so much about 2012.

monkeypants · 26-12-2012 11:17AM

Eoin wrote: »

It's not a disciplinary procedure, therefore there is no need for unions to be involved.

Exactly. For disciplinary matters, the employee can bring whatever representation they wish. One brought a solicitor once, for all the use it was.

qwertypop · 26-12-2012 11:23AM

hattoncracker wrote: »

Yeah, I know.. I'll be having a meeting if I go back tomorrow-but I'm afraid to go back tomorrow in case it makes me worse and I have to call in Thursday or Friday. Aaah!! I'm a bit torn, tbh. If I knew that they didn't think I was taking the piss then I'd be ok with it. But I don't know. I'm already working Christmas Eve, the 27th and the 28th (my birthday), and NYE so it's not like I don't have any anti-social hours ahead of me!

I know that your 100 percent sick. But the timing stinks. The week of Xmas and your birthday thrown in as well. There going to think your on the piss. I'd go in to work sick and let them send you home or else collapse at the water cooler. Sure way of getting a week off

imitation · 26-12-2012 11:42AM

In fairness to the employer, if the company has above a couple of dozen employees they have probably seen a few hypercondriacs and a few people fond of pulling sickies after benders (I think we have a reputation as a nation for it at this stage). I know after working for a few short years I have definitely seen a few cases of it. At the end of the day, the business has to turn a profit and somebody dropping out on a regular basis is extremely disruptive.

I think it was a good thing the employer mentioned it to you, better than being told at the end of your probation, but it was really misfortunate you caught a bad flu ! I think as others have said you have to take the sick time, but when your ready to come back, bring in the doctors cert and any other evidence you have and clear the air with them and let them know its not going to be a regular thing. (at same time, everybody gets sick, and we have obligations to other people)

Wanderer2010 · 26-12-2012 12:17PM

monkeypants wrote: »

Exactly. For disciplinary matters, the employee can bring whatever representation they wish. One brought a solicitor once, for all the use it was.

Wow, I would hate to be working under you. Your anti-union views are very obvious and your comment about the solicitor being no good is borderline bullying. You say you have fired people for absenses, of course thats a disciplinary issue and the employee has the right of appeal and a union rep. In most normal companies, if the absences are an issue, they are given a verbal warning, then written etc until all avenues are exhausted. All these meetings are done with a rep, should the employee want one. Its not a case of "Oh you are out a lot, come in here and we fire you"! You are the one who was saying you are hardly ever sick, I think you are expecting the same standards from your employees, which is unfair. People get sick, they have lives, things happen. Thats life and employee absense is just a fact of working life.

Mrs OBumble · 26-12-2012 01:10PM

Deleted User wrote: »

This says so much about 2012.

It's nothing new. When I worked in the fast-food industry nearly 30 years ago, in a store with lots of students, the situation was much the same. If you're managing youngsters, you need to hard-assed and teach them workplace discipline, or they end up having food fights in the kitchen, thinking that serving 51% of the customers well is good enough, and suchlike.

With slightly older people, the workforce usually has more professional maturity, so the way for managers to get performance is lighten up considerably.

smcgiff · 26-12-2012 01:21PM

Wow. Just wow. Very little credence is given to doctor notes these days, and for good reason. Yet, the suggestion here is that an employer should report doctors to the medical council. Do you not think owners/managers have anything better to do?

Doctor certs have to be accepted at all times as there are insurance implications.

However, do the ones on here that are accusing managers of bullying accept that employees (quite a lot actually) take the piss and abuse employment protection laws.

A lot of advice here is ignoring the op being on probation. A lot of good advice has been given to the op as to how he should manage the situation if he does need to call in sick.

One final point re the op - sickness is relative and open to exaggeration. The op mentions that only 10% of employees go from probation to permanent contracts. This makes no sense. You cannot be kept on probation indefinitely, and to let go 90% of staff would be VERY inefficient

Wanderer2010 · 26-12-2012 01:30PM

smcgiff wrote: »

Wow. Just wow. Very little credence is given to doctor notes these days, and for good reason. Yet, the suggestion here is that an employer should report doctors to the medical council. Do you not think owners/managers have anything better to do?

Doctor certs have to be accepted at all times as there are insurance implications.

However, do the ones on here that are accusing managers of bullying accept that employees (quite a lot actually) take the piss and abuse employment protection laws.

A lot of advice here is ignoring the op being on probation. A lot of good advice has been given to the op as to how he should manage the situation if he does need to call in sick.

One final point re the op - sickness is relative and open to exaggeration. The op mentions that only 10% of employees go from probation to permanent contracts. This makes no sense. You cannot be kept on probation indefinitely, and to let go 90% of staff would be VERY inefficient

I agree with your point that a lot of staff do abuse sick leave but at the end of the day if you have a medical cert thats the end of it, its signed off and you are excused for the day/week etc. Back to work interviews are only appropriate for people who have been out for several weeks or months with a serious injury or stress leave. I have had a few of them and even the way they are structured is designed as a kind of telling off not to do it again- they ask you how many days so far you have taken off, why exactly you were sick etc, all info thats already on the cert.

Its bullying plain and simple and designed to drop a huge hint about not taking any time off again or at the very least reconsider the length of time off. And company doctors are even worse for this because they want all employees back to work as soon as possible so will downplay any recovery time or adjustments needed for your work environment for people who need to be eased back into work. :rolleyes:

BrianJD · 26-12-2012 01:40PM

smcgiff wrote: »

Wow. Just wow. Very little credence is given to doctor notes these days, and for good reason. Yet, the suggestion here is that an employer should report doctors to the medical council. Do you not think owners/managers have anything better to do?

Doctor certs have to be accepted at all times as there are insurance implications.

I currently have a staff member out for 4 weeks due to Frostbite having been in a freezer for 30 mins one day and 15 mins another day. She got her cert from a Dr from her own country but based in Ireland.

I sent her to our company Dr who had never seen frostbite formed in this country in 30 years and she felt that while there was inflammation, it was not frostbite. Apparently there had been a big increase in Doctors from this particular country giving long certs.

In another of our outlets we have a staff member also from this country certed out for 6 weeks over Xmas with a bad back.

I can't see how a doctor can cert somebody out for 6 weeks and not request a weekly visit.

smcgiff · 26-12-2012 01:48PM

30 minutes in a freezer is a very long time if it's anything like the freezer i worked in while at supermacs (student days). That was seriously below zero, and had a fan on. A minute in there and you knew about it.

The general rule is that the employee would not be paid while out sick. However, in this case the employee may be able to take a case against you if she were following orders. :-(

BrianJD · 26-12-2012 01:52PM

smcgiff wrote: »

30 minutes in a freezer is a very long time if it's anything like the freezer i worked in while at supermacs (student days). That was seriously below, and had a fan on. A minute in there and you knew about it.

The general rule is that the employee would not be paid while out sick. However, in this case the employee may be able to take a case against you if she were following orders. :-(

Well this freezer is about 2metres by 2 metres and the door would have been open as she tidied it and packed it so I'd say -10 at worst as the fan was turned off as she worked it. She is of course looking to claim off us as the only gloves provided were standard deli latex gloves.

gozunda · 26-12-2012 02:03PM

smcgiff wrote: »

Wow. Just wow. Very little credence is given to doctor notes these days, and for good reason. Yet, the suggestion here is that an employer should report doctors to the medical council. Do you not think owners/managers have anything better to do?

Doctor certs have to be accepted at all times as there are insurance implications.

However, do the ones on here that are accusing managers of bullying accept that employees (quite a lot actually) take the piss and abuse employment protection laws.

A lot of advice here is ignoring the op being on probation. A lot of good advice has been given to the op as to how he should manage the situation if he does need to call in sick.

One final point re the op - sickness is relative and open to exaggeration. The op mentions that only 10% of employees go from probation to permanent contracts. This makes no sense. You cannot be kept on probation indefinitely, and to let go 90% of staff would be VERY inefficient

Doctors are professionals that must stand over any diagnosis. Employers are not qualified to give or question such medical diagnosis no matter how much that does not suit their particular circumstances.

If an employee comes in against medical opinion and attends work because of pressure from their employer then the employer potentially faces huge legal issues if the employee has on accident or their condition worsens

As I said I find it quite incredible that some employers question medical professionals considering some of the practices of employers that come to light during EAT and labour court proceedings.

What I am saying that IF there is a perceived problem with a particular GP then do the correct thing and not cast dispersions on the whole medical profession because an employer may have sone doubts in a particular instance etc.

Obviously employers and employees both have contractural and legal obligations but it seriously concerns me that there appears to be some rather extreme draconian attitude towards employees that they should show up or else.

This is not good employment practice - as I said I can see where an issue of long term sickness may involve a meeting on the employees return to work however their use at every instance is an abuse of the employers authority. It matters not that employees may have 'signed up' to this in their contract - it is unlikely that many employees have any choice in this matter .

My suggestion to employers is to back off such dubious practices - overall they are not conducive to a good working environment especially where it results in young vulnerable employees being 'afraid to call in sick' when they really are.

Eoin · 26-12-2012 02:04PM

Wanderer2010 wrote: »

at the end of the day if you have a medical cert thats the end of it, its signed off and you are excused for the day/week etc.

Wanderer2010 wrote: »

And company doctors are even worse for this because they want all employees back to work as soon as possible so will downplay any recovery time or adjustments needed for your work environment for people who need to be eased back into work

So a company doctor wants you back in work no matter how sick you are, yet your own doctor would never ever give a dodgy sick cert? Do you think there should be a limit to the number of documented absences before enough is enough?

Why not blame the people who abuse sick leave (hint of a sniffle or at the end of a 2 day bender), rather than employers.

Wanderer2010 wrote: »

Its bullying plain and simple

Calling that bullying does a big disservice to the people who are actually bullied in work and are going through a lot worse.

smcgiff · 26-12-2012 02:06PM

Wander,

I think you may be underestimating the disruption caused by an employee taking a duvet day. Business set ups need to be cut to the bone. There's only a minimum of staff on duty, and if even one person calls in sick the business is working sub optimally, and suffers.

It is too important to just accept a medical cert that are too easily given.

A business needs to use all the weapons in its disposal to cut out duvet days, or even slight colds and I'm taking a day off scenarios. Look at the public sector absentee rates. They are untouchable and see the results. In that case there can be true bullying by co-workers that antagonize others for not taking paid "sick days".

It's a tough environment out there for employers as a lot of laws are in favour of even quite poor employees.

smcgiff · 26-12-2012 02:11PM

Gozunda.

In the spirit of christmas and because I've only 5 or 6 decades of life left l'll have to agree to disagree.

smcgiff · 26-12-2012 02:18PM

BrianJD wrote: »

Well this freezer is about 2metres by 2 metres and the door would have been open as she tidied it and packed it so I'd say -10 at worst as the fan was turned off as she worked it. She is of course looking to claim off us as the only gloves provided were standard deli latex gloves.

You have my sympathies.

I'm looking to start up a new (sideline) business early in the new year that would most likely grow faster with an employee or two, but I'd be very reluctant to employ someone. In my day job I've seen the heart ache it can cause. Yours is another example of it.

Qualitymark · 26-12-2012 02:18PM

BrianJD wrote: »

Well this freezer is about 2metres by 2 metres and the door would have been open as she tidied it and packed it so I'd say -10 at worst as the fan was turned off as she worked it. She is of course looking to claim off us as the only gloves provided were standard deli latex gloves.

Good God. Why on earth not provide correct workwear?

Surely any suspect claims for colds and flu can be simply sorted out by taking a throat swab, if you want to do such things?

Amazing the distrust of staff shown on this thread.

smcgiff · 26-12-2012 02:30PM

Qualitymark wrote: »

Good God. Why on earth not provide correct workwear?

Surely any suspect claims for colds and flu can be simply sorted out by taking a throat swab, if you want to do such things?

Amazing the distrust of staff shown on this thread.

I've never seen anyone wearing gloves to clean out a freezer - i never did. Although, I'm sure it would be good practice.

Do you realise how cold you have to get to get frostbite? The length of time in the freezer seems to be an issue here. Why didn't the employee have enough sense to stop working if was that cold? Are employers not allowed to expect common sense from staff?

Re your shock at distrust. You seem to be very naive - do you accept that not ALL distrust is misplaced?

Afraid to call in sick. :(

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