Oftec register

DGOBS · 21-12-2012 06:45AM

Yes, I stand over my comment that only plumbers should be installers, if they have been installing gas boilers for 30 years, they should be plumbers too!!
Obviously time served plumbers from yesteryear should have an avenue into the industry, but there should be a cut off date where only a trade cert will suffice.
But they should also be required to have addons such as Oftec/GID before installing unless these were incorporated into their 4 year apprenticeship.

Bring on SR50, as this will at least provide an Irish standard for plumbing, and in some respects give a basis for the industry to move forward.

Non plumbers in the industry should have a 'technician' status that allows them to service and repair, but not take on or sign off on installation work.

The issue with oil installations in this country is non-regulation, and will never have a chance of improving until regulation begins. The installation standard for oil in the UK is much better, even unregulated, but this is due to LABC actually doing what it says on the tin (unlike their counterparts here)

As for trainers, the system is flawed, and the exam format incorrect IMHO, but as a qualified trainer and assessor, I have never 'sat back' oblivious to what goes on in my classroom, for any course, exam or assessment. But the suggestion of a year long course for gas/oil such as the c&g on offer in the UK would be a great direction to see us going, based on continuious assessment rather that focused on multiple choice exams.

jimjimt · 21-12-2012 10:15AM

I would be a fan of the City & Guilds system. It is a pity Fas/Fetac would adapt it more. It would mean I could get properly trained in electrics and others. Or even training centers start doing some C&G practical courses. Its the way to go.
Along with a world recognized qualification.

If all that was to happen it might spoil our new and perfect little eco-system where Oftec's clean up after plumbers and plumbers sort out pipework after Oftec's.

Maybe their would be nothing do.

jimf · 21-12-2012 07:55PM

just a quick question that maybe the plumbers on here might answer have any of ye had any pressure put on to become oftec members

when i did my course 3 years ago it was a very contentious issue that oftec were going to insist on all plumbers signing up

and as regards trainers on these courses personally i think it really is up to yourself as to what you want to achieve or learn from these people they obviously have the knowledge/experience so why not pick there brains as much as possible after all these guys dont really know the caliber of student thats being put on their courses until the day it starts i know i was lucky we had the nicest guy and was more than willing to dwell or discuss after any issues where you were struggling

Dtp79 · 21-12-2012 08:30PM

jimf wrote: »

just a quick question that maybe the plumbers on here might answer have any of ye had any pressure put on to become oftec members

when i did my course 3 years ago it was a very contentious issue that oftec were going to insist on all plumbers signing up

and as regards trainers on these courses personally i think it really is up to yourself as to what you want to achieve or learn from these people they obviously have the knowledge/experience so why not pick there brains as much as possible after all these guys dont really know the caliber of student thats being put on their courses until the day it starts i know i was lucky we had the nicest guy and was more than willing to dwell or discuss after any issues where you were struggling

I wouldn't say there was any pressure to become a member. They just told us the benifets of becoming a member and that hopefully oil would become as regulated in Ireland as it is in England. But there was definately no pressure

jimjimt · 21-12-2012 08:53PM

jimf wrote: »

just a quick question that maybe the plumbers on here might answer have any of ye had any pressure put on to become oftec members

when i did my course 3 years ago it was a very contentious issue that oftec were going to insist on all plumbers signing up

and as regards trainers on these courses personally i think it really is up to yourself as to what you want to achieve or learn from these people they obviously have the knowledge/experience so why not pick there brains as much as possible after all these guys dont really know the caliber of student thats being put on their courses until the day it starts i know i was lucky we had the nicest guy and was more than willing to dwell or discuss after any issues where you were struggling

Just to clarify I am not anti OFTEC and there ethos and courses are good.

Oftec cannot put pressure on plumbers to join for they have no legal status in the country to do so. It is not a legal requirement. No pressure has ever been put on me or it has it ever affected my work in any way.

Also it is 10-20 days OFTEC training v 1360 days Fas Plumbing Apprenticeship training.

And their is good and bad plumbers............. and good and bad OFTEC technicians............

Part of my training with Fas as a plumber was oil appliances, pressure jet, vaporizing etc.... would have taken up a bit of time under Fas in the Cork IT. In total 1 academic year for oil appliances and loads more.
A lot of my apprenticeship over four years would have been on burners, Aga's Cleopatras were popular etc........ at the time if you had a oil pressure gauge for burners you were advanced then came the smoke pump, analyzers unheard off. I presume similar training as part of an apprenticeship today maybe not.
To the point oil servicing and installation is a big part of a plumbing apprenticeship.
So a bit unfair for OFTEC to come along and claim to be all that it is and train guys for 10 days and off you go install and service.

When condensing boilers came along I done a OFTEC 3 day course for experience plumbers. I knew with condensing boilers without a analyzer I was lost. So a worth while course and I learn a lot more than just about analyzers. Also the same year all "oil boilers could not installed without OFTEC certification !!" supposedly, that turn out to be a farce.

I am not OFTEC registered. My installs are accepted by boiler manufactures. I do work for landlords who houses are let to councils. I install boilers for people who get loans and grants from the council. All my work is accepted service, repair and install.

Since Fas/Fetac do not do follow on courses for oil I would highly recommend any plumber to do any OFTEC course money well spent.

Since I join RGII this year most of the calls I get are for oil boiler servicing figure that out ?

Dtp79 · 21-12-2012 09:06PM

jimjimt wrote: »

Just to clarify I am not anti OFTEC and there ethos and courses are good.

Oftec cannot put pressure on plumbers to join for they have no legal status in the country to do so. It is not a legal requirement. No pressure has ever been put on me or it has it ever affected my work in any way.

Also it is 10-20 days OFTEC training v 1360 days Fas Plumbing Apprenticeship training.

And their is good and bad plumbers............. and good and bad OFTEC technicians............

Part of my training with Fas as a plumber was oil appliances, pressure jet, vaporizing etc.... would have taken up a bit of time under Fas in the Cork IT. In total 1 academic year for oil appliances and loads more.
A lot of my apprenticeship over four years would have been on burners, Aga's Cleopatras were popular etc........ at the time if you had a oil pressure gauge for burners you were advanced then came the smoke pump, analyzers unheard off. I presume similar training as part of an apprenticeship today maybe not.
To the point oil servicing and installation is a big part of a plumbing apprenticeship.
So a bit unfair for OFTEC to come along and claim to be all that it is and train guys for 10 days and off you go install and service.

When condensing boilers came along I done a OFTEC 3 day course for experience plumbers. I knew with condensing boilers without a analyzer I was lost. So a worth while course and I learn a lot more than just about analyzers. Also the same year all "oil boilers could not installed without OFTEC certification !!" supposedly, that turn out to be a farce.

I am not OFTEC registered. My installs are accepted by boiler manufactures. I do work for landlords who houses are let to councils. I install boilers for people who get loans and grants from the council. All my work is accepted service, repair and install.

Since Fas/Fetac do not do follow on courses for oil I would highly recommend any plumber to do any OFTEC course money well spent.

Since I join RGII this year most of the calls I get are for oil boiler servicing figure that out ?

As in they look up RGI website and ask you to service an oil boiler???

jimjimt · 21-12-2012 09:21PM

Dtp79 wrote: »

As in they look up RGI website and ask you to service an oil boiler???

Yes nuts but who am I to complain. I am only join since October 4 gas boilers service, 5 oil boiler service, 1 cooker install and 1 boiler install. A cooker install in Jan. Along with some general plumbing work overall. I am happy with it along with my general work. At least now I have just broke even after paying for the courses.
I think people just looking for a plumber in general so they are using it as a directory. It can only get better.

Dtp79 · 21-12-2012 09:30PM

jimjimt wrote: »

Yes nuts but who am I to complain. I am only join since October 4 gas boilers service, 5 oil boiler service, 1 cooker install and 1 boiler install. A cooker install in Jan. Along with some general plumbing work overall. I am happy with it along with my general work. At least now I have just broke even after paying for the courses.
I think people just looking for a plumber in general so they are using it as a directory. It can only get better.

Ye I'm kinda in the same boat as you. Joined RGI around the same time but didn't get any oil boiler service from it. Good bit of gas though

jimjimt · 21-12-2012 09:39PM

Dtp79 wrote: »

Ye I'm kinda in the same boat as you. Joined RGI around the same time but didn't get any oil boiler service from it. Good bit of gas though

Mostly local so most likely just a lookup for a number.

Their is a private RGI Tech forum give DGOBS a pm if you are interested with your details. A bit to gain and learn in their.

Dtp79 · 21-12-2012 09:46PM

jimjimt wrote: »

Mostly local so most likely just a lookup for a number.

Their is a private RGI Tech forum give DGOBS a pm if you are interested with your details. A bit to gain and learn in their.

Yea I know about it alright. I've pm'd him but I don't think they delivered. Probably something I didn't do right. I'm only new to boards

jimjimt · 21-12-2012 09:52PM

Dtp79 wrote: »

Yea I know about it alright. I've pm'd him but I don't think they delivered. Probably something I didn't do right. I'm only new to boards

Forward a pm to me if you like. I let you know if it is working.

DGOBS · 22-12-2012 12:37AM

Just to clarify guys, oil in the UK is not regulated by Oftec, it's the LABC and that's only for installs, commissioning and oil tank installs.

inglenook · 21-01-2013 09:53PM

shane0007 wrote: »

Not at all. It has already been well covered here on Boards by DGOBS, myself and many others.
The issue is the design of the boiler which in their wisdom, decided to patent the upside down boiler. Having the burner and flame chamber above the baffles is what is causing the issue. The combustion chamber temperatures are circa 1,100C. At this heat, the POC's only want to rise up, but they cannot. They are forced down through the baffles and then through the secondary heat exchanger. It then travels back up to the flue via a very small passage way of circa 20mm deep. By this stage, the POC's have dropped to a much lower temperature of about 60 - 70C and therefore much slower. On windy days, combined with certain site conditions, such as boiler located on the negative pressure side of the house, the wind pressure can be greater than the pressure of the POC's exiting the flue. This leads to poor combustion, sooting and ultimately, sooting of the photocell leading to lock out. It is not a re-circulation issue.
A 0.65 US Gal/Hr nozzle allows 0.65 US Gal of kerosene through it at 7 bar pressure. The same ratio can be applied of the nozzle was slightly downsized, and the pressure was increased, the same volume of fuel is passed through the nozzle and therefore the the same kw output is achieved. The upside of greater pressure is greater combustion pressure is also achieved and it assists in overcoming the issue.
So to resolve this particular boiler issue, down size the nozzle by 0.05 - 0.1 US Gal/Hr but increase the pump pressure by 0.5 bar will generally do the trick.
The manufacturer cannot admit the problem as they are the 2nd largest selling boiler in the UK and Ireland and if they admit the problem as a design issue, the cost of rectification would be enormous. They should bring out a corrected design under a new model range and discontinue the older problematic model.

Fitted an "upside down" oil boiler 15 months ago and was called to investigate problem. Found trap melted and evidence of spilled P.O.C's. I don't want to fit another trap, just for same thing to happen. Sorry if I'm being slow, but can't see why increasing the nozzle pressure through a smaller orafice (nozzle) would increase combustion chamber pressure, since the oil volume delivered would be the same. So not sure if this would solve the problem. I'll bow to your greater experience in the matter, since I can't think of a solution myself, though I'd much prefer to understand! New to this "board" business and this is first attempt at "posting", so hopeful it might prove useful and I've posted this in a correct manner.

shane0007 · 21-01-2013 10:09PM

inglenook wrote: »

Fitted an "upside down" oil boiler 15 months ago and was called to investigate problem. Found trap melted and evidence of spilled P.O.C's. I don't want to fit another trap, just for same thing to happen. Sorry if I'm being slow, but can't see why increasing the nozzle pressure through a smaller orafice (nozzle) would increase combustion chamber pressure, since the oil volume delivered would be the same. So not sure if this would solve the problem. I'll bow to your greater experience in the matter, since I can't think of a solution myself, though I'd much prefer to understand! New to this "board" business and this is first attempt at "posting", so hopeful it might prove useful and I've posted this in a correct manner.

Welcome to Boards, but first off no bowing required. There are far greater & more knowledgeable contributors than me here & we are all willing to help one another.

The issue & fix that I have covered resolves a sooting issue that is particular to that boiler & can be worse with particular site conditions & on windy days.
Your particular problem is probably due to a mixture of issues. The poor boiler combustion throughput leads to a higher flue temperature as heat is backed up within the combustion chamber/secondary heat exchanger/trap plus perhaps a few other consumables thrown in there also.

What are the parameters of the install such as boiler model, kw, circulating pump size, house sqft, number of rads, etc.?
Is the boiler over-sized for the demand?
Is the pump under-sized?

I have seen this particular issue with this boiler on a number of occasions but certain criteria was present.

inglenook · 21-01-2013 10:26PM

Wow shane! Having just posted for the first time, I then thought, there are hundreds of boards on a huge variety of subjects, so curious how you knew of my post so quickly. Delighted though! Re boiler in question, I'm carefull in commissioning and make sure combustion is spot on with manufacturer's data. I serviced said boiler approx. 3 months ago and there was virtually no soot, the secondry exchanger was extremely clean! The pump is not undersized for system size. However, it was a replacement boiler, and output was sized to be comparable to the old boiler. Perhaps it would be a good idea for me to measure the current rad, hot water cylinder requirements, and hopefully find the boiler oversized, in which case could fit smaller nozzle. On a related topic. I read that the POC's go through a 20mm or so channel, but I can't see an obvious way that this could be inspected/cleaned. Many thanks.

shane0007 · 21-01-2013 10:55PM

inglenook wrote: »

Wow shane! Having just posted for the first time, I then thought, there are hundreds of boards on a huge veraity of subjects, so curiouse how you knew of my post so quickly. Delighted though!

It's all being part of the inner circle! Just kidding, you can set up subscriptions to the threads you post in through your User Control Panel. It will email you when somebody posts in a thread that you have.

inglenook wrote: »

Re boiler in question, I'm carefull in commissioning and make sure combustion is spot on with manufacturers data. I serviced said boiler approx. 3 months ago and there was virtually no soot, the secondry exchanger was extremely clean! The pump is not undersized for system size. However, it was a replacement boiler, and output was sized to be comparable to the old boiler. Perhaps it would be a good idea for me to measure the current rad, hot water cylinder requirements, and hopefully find the boiler oversized, in which case could fit smaller nozzle. On a related topic. I read that the POC's go through a 20mm or so channel, but I can't see an obvious way that this could be inspected/cleaned. Many thanks.

I would not set that particular boiler up to exact MI's. You need to be setting CO2 at about 11.2 - 11.3%. The loss in efficiency would be fairly immeasurable but will run much cleaner. The higher pump pressure will compensate for the smaller throughput of the nozzle => no loss in kw output. It will also give more combustion throughput.
The small flueway at the back of the boiler can only be cleaned through the flue itself from the external. For completely sooted boilers, I usually use a power washer outside, and wash back into the boiler until it runs clear through the condensate pipe externally. Be careful not to allow water down the air intake as this will lead to the burner fan!
What size pump did you install, a 25/50 or a 25/60? Also what brand?

inglenook · 21-01-2013 11:48PM

Sorry, can't be specific. The boiler was an "emergency" replacement, fitted in a rush so customer could have a warm Christmas. So did not have time to check boiler output required, or pump. I replaced the pump as per the old one as it seemed to be functioning adequately. It was a larger than usual domestic pump. Going by memory, which is extremely fallible,it was something like a grundfos 40/80. (I remember it was pretty expensive!) I'll check it when I get a chance to go back an refamiliarise myself with the job. Sound advice re the cleaning of flue way, though due to lack of soot as mentioned can't see me going down that line, but good to know in case I come across a badly sooted boiler of this type. I'll certainly adjust CO2 as you suggested when there. Thanks again!

shane0007 · 22-01-2013 12:01AM

It is much more important & detrimental if a condensing boiler is not correctly sized to an installation. They should be more under-sized if anything compared to a conventional boiler. The delta T for SE boilers is 11C whilst for HE, it is 20C. Therefore, the rads should be over-sized or the boiler slightly under-sized. Circulation is a major issue & again must be sized correctly. Most systems I come across have under-sized pumps. Remember SE boilers have FG temps of circa 200C & HE circa 50C so more heat going to the heating rather than the flue. If it cannot be pumped away from the boiler quick enough, then well melted condensates, etc.

If a client is screaming "I need heat now & before Xmas" you can waive a disclaimer at them to sign indemnifying you against over-sizing the boiler, saving them money, etc., etc. I am sure they would not mind waiting a extra hour or two for their heat.

inglenook · 22-01-2013 12:18AM

shane0007 wrote: »

It's all being part of the inner circle! Just kidding, you can set up subscriptions to the threads you post in through your User Control Panel. It will email you when somebody posts in a thread that you have.

I would not set that particular boiler up to exact MI's. You need to be setting CO2 at about 11.2 - 11.3%. The loss in efficiency would be fairly immeasurable but will run much cleaner. The higher pump pressure will compensate for the smaller throughput of the nozzle => no loss in kw output. It will also give more combustion throughput.
The small flueway at the back of the boiler can only be cleaned through the flue itself from the external. For completely sooted boilers, I usually use a power washer outside, and wash back into the boiler until it runs clear through the condensate pipe externally. Be careful not to allow water down the air intake as this will lead to the burner fan!
What size pump did you install, a 25/50 or a 25/60? Also what brand?

My head is now buzzing with variables! Could the pump be oversized, ie, not allowing large enough temp. difference between flow, return? It's a large rambling house, with various extentions over it's history, so it would be difficult to ascertain the index circuit re pump head required etc. How can I determine wind variables etc, without a recording anemometer for example? Think I'll stop thinking till I get back to the job and get relevant facts!

shane0007 · 22-01-2013 12:23AM

Lol

Wearb · 04-02-2013 12:03PM

Changed a photocell on a C44 about a month ago. Noticed that the stickers on the baffle inspection plate were showing signs of excess heat. Owner doesn't want it serviced until weather gets warmer. Boiler seems way oversized. (he intends to build extension in the future)
What are the implications of choosing a nozzle below the smallest manufacturer recommended size. I have always stuck to manufacturer recommended settings (except for using smaller nozzles sometimes and upping the pump pressure according to nozzle tables). I assume that if I go too low with nozzle size, that it will be impossible to achieve the other settings, i.e. FG temp and O2 etc..
Any thoughts on this?

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