Oftec register

Robbie.G

Hopefully this will happen sooner than later.There are to many messing with oil boilers
http://buildingservicesnews.com/news/oftec-wants-oil-technician-register/

shane0007

Doubt it happening anytime soon. This has been pushed for years with FF so, FG & Labour won't be much better. Not enough deaths yet for them to sit up & take notice.

If anything, it may be pushed by Insurance companies & local authorities. All LA's require an OFTEC cert from landlords wishing to rent to the LA. I do loads of them and is a good source of work as all recommendations on the cert must be carried out before they will take on the property.

pache

All LA's require an OFTEC cert from landlords wishing to rent to the LA. I do loads of them and is a good source of work as all recommendations on the cert must be carried out before they will take on the property.

Not All of em'..;)

shane0007

They do if you bring it to their attention!

jimjimt

I do work for landlords who need council reports. I am not OFTEC registered all reports are accepted in full by the councils.
All my installs are accepted by Firebird and Grant.

I am anything but anti OFTEC.

OFTEC will not be taken seriously unless they change there entry criteria.
5-10 course and you can dictate how a heating system is plumbed and designed. No prior experience. Nuts...............

This is why insurance companies and councils and boiler manufactures are not implementing OFTEC to the full.

Robbie.G

jimjimt wrote: »

I do work for landlords who need council reports. I am not OFTEC registered all reports are accepted in full by the councils.
All my installs are accepted by Firebird and Grant.

I am anything but anti OFTEC.

OFTEC will not be taken seriously unless they change there entry criteria.
5-10 course and you can dictate how a heating system is plumbed and designed. No prior experience. Nuts...............

This is why insurance companies and councils and boiler manufactures are not implementing OFTEC to the full.

I agree in principal with you Jim about the training end of it but if anyone goes on a Oftec course and thinks they will have the know how to work on oil they are sadly deluded.There are a lot of Rgi's that should be let anywhere near a gas boiler.I think that Oftec might not be the complete way to go but at least you are working to a recognised standard.I have lost to many jobs to the type of installer that fits tanks on planks and boilers with wheel head fire valves that if there was a fire you would be as well with a 367 as that.

Dtp79

jimjimt wrote: »

I do work for landlords who need council reports. I am not OFTEC registered all reports are accepted in full by the councils.
All my installs are accepted by Firebird and Grant.

I am anything but anti OFTEC.

OFTEC will not be taken seriously unless they change there entry criteria.
5-10 course and you can dictate how a heating system is plumbed and designed. No prior experience. Nuts...............

This is why insurance companies and councils and boiler manufactures are not implementing OFTEC to the full.

The Oftec 10 day course isn't a bad course to be fair (depending on the training centre)The main problem is letting guys on with no prior experience in plumbing and heating. It should really be an add on to a plumbers qualification or should be included as part of their apprenticeship kinda like the GIS was

jimjimt

OFTEC is a profit making organization and needs the money from the volumes of accept anyone for training to survive and make loads of money.
It would be good to have a register but not OFTEC because of the above.
OFTEC training and literature is very good along with standards and ethos but their starting point and entry criteria is nuts.........

It will be interesting to see in the new year what the new register of oil installers Ireland (is that right ?)will be promoting and what they will accept as entry points for training or crossovers to join will be. Will all OFTEC technicians be allowed to join or will their be a tinning out ?

Dtp79

jimjimt wrote: »

OFTEC is a profit making organization and needs the money from the volumes of accept anyone for training to survive and make loads of money.
It would be good to have a register but not OFTEC because of the above.
OFTEC training and literature is very good along with standards and ethos but their starting point and entry criteria is nuts.........

It will be interesting to see in the new year what the new register of oil installers Ireland (is that right ?)will be promoting and what they will accept as entry points for training or crossovers to join will be. Will all OFTEC technicians be allowed to join or will their be a tinning out ?

The ROII as I think it's gonna be know is gonna be working in conjunction with Oftec as far as I know. Now that's 3rd hand information and might not be true. At least it's being stopped that people who did Oftec were able to go on and do GIS

shane0007

jimjimt wrote: »

OFTEC is a profit making organization and needs the money from the volumes of accept anyone for training to survive and make loads of money.
It would be good to have a register but not OFTEC because of the above.
OFTEC training and literature is very good along with standards and ethos but their starting point and entry criteria is nuts.........

It will be interesting to see in the new year what the new register of oil installers Ireland (is that right ?)will be promoting and what they will accept as entry points for training or crossovers to join will be. Will all OFTEC technicians be allowed to join or will their be a tinning out ?

That is incorrect. OFTEC is a non-profit organisation, just as RGII is. All profits are put back into the development of the organisation and to further public awareness.
Secondly, OFTEC in Ireland has no legal standing. It is just a registered of suitably persons who have shown competency in their set out exams. The LAW is the Building Regulations of this country. OFTEC just spells out what the regulations mean, taking into account regional variations and compile a recognised register of technicians who have reached the required knowledge and standard of these building regulations.
All manufacturers in Ireland have signed upto this requirement as it is the recognised standard of the industry and OFTEC are accepted as the organisation to implement it. Some manufacturers are slower than others as sales determine their objectives but others are actively changing their requirements. You may have noticed the new boiler passports with now a section for the installer to complete and the other for the commissioner. About 3 years ago it was costing manufacturers in Ireland circa €300,000 on warranty call outs that were down to poor installation! This figure is dramatically reduced due to better awareness and better installer practices.
It is attitudes of installers that needs to change more rapidly. Not every organisation is out to get you but there to provide guidance. They have issues, agreed, but this can change with more cooperation from the installers.

Finally, the EU has heavily regulated all fossil fuel using sectors, including the car industry, the aviation industry, the gas industry. Why will they leave out the oil home heating industry. Heavy regulation is coming down the line whether we like it or not. IMO, it is for the good & I welcome it with open arms as it will be good for both the installer and the user.

shane0007

jimjimt wrote: »

I do work for landlords who need council reports. I am not OFTEC registered all reports are accepted in full by the councils.
All my installs are accepted by Firebird and Grant.

Every landlord that contacts me for Kilkenny CC has been told to get an OFTEC cert. Nearly every cert I issue has recommendations to bring the installation to current standards. On EVERY occasion and to the dismay of the landlord, the recommendations have had to be implemented for Kilkenny CC to accept the property officially.

I am a service engineer for Grant and their direct instruction to me is to first check the boiler passport and the standard it is installed to. They do give some leeway but this is becoming less and less. Every boiler sold in both Ireland and UK must hold an OFCERT. Do you think OFTEC will allow manufacturer's to carry on holding an OFCERT if they blatantly ignore OFTEC installation practices. Again, leeway whilst implemation takes place, but it is rapidly changing.
Grant manufacture and sell 1,800 boilers per week and most go to the UK which every installation must be compliant and certified either by an OFTEC technician or a Building Control Officer. The latter costing the non-registered installer a pretty penny for the call out and cert. OFTEC is actively seeking for this very same system to be introduced to Ireland and of the Councils they have had meetings with, they are extremely receptive to as it offers CC's a revenue stream that did not previously exist.

jimjimt

Yes you are right OFTEC do not have a legal status in Ireland. That is why County Councils and others cannot refuse reports by those who are qualified to work on oil and are not OFTEC registered.

If OFTEC are non profit why do they need mass numbers for their training courses ? Should they not up the entry requirements ?

Also a lot of manufactures warranty call costs are caused by those who are OFTEC registered. So I was told on manufactures training days. Mostly unchecked pressure vessels during servicing.

Also Grant have on their list of Service "Engineers" those who are not OFTEC registered and have been used by Grant for 20 years and more and still use them to this day.

shane0007

jimjimt wrote: »

Yes you are right OFTEC do not have a legal status in Ireland. That is why County Councils and others cannot refuse reports by those who are qualified to work on oil and are not OFTEC registered.

As I mentioned before, the legal part of it is covered by Building Regs. Co Co's are also accepting that OFTEC is the industry standard and are requiring same. How does the Council know that the person writing the report knows the ins and outs of the building regs?

jimjimt wrote: »

If OFTEC are non profit why do they need mass numbers for their training courses ? Should they not up the entry requirements ?

Because if they are going to war, they need an army behind them. No point in having a couple of OFTEC technicians in the country to make a change for the better, they need everyone on board.
An allied trade is now a requirement. I agree it let people in that it shouldn't have. Those people generally do not survive in the real world and those that do survive generally end up as decent technicians as they are willing and able to learn.

jimjimt wrote: »

Also a lot of manufactures warranty call costs are caused by those who are OFTEC registered. So I was told on manufactures training days.

I disagree. Just on numbers alone, there are much more non-registered installers than there are registered carrying out installs. I see it first hand and the bulk of warranty calls are for non-registered installers.
A certain manufacturer will bung you in the back of their tour van, show you how to fill out the passport and tell you that is all that is required. They want you to install more of their boilers and do not worry about standards. They are also the manufacturer with the most warranty calls!

jimjimt

The council's accept a qualified plumbers report as much as an OFTEC report. For the simple reason they are qualified and a trained professional. This is also an industry standard.
Plenty of plumbers around Kilkenny and county carry out work for the council including oil installs and are not OFTEC certified. As I have done.

If you go to war you need a professional army behind you. Not a 5-10 day trained army. Immortally rates would be high. Why not have 2-4 years training more of an academy where you learn pipe work etc, sent out on work experience. Then they might be taken seriously.

The manufactures training/information day I was on was not in the back of a van. Your brought to a nice hotel for lunch. They accept a qualified plumber with a analyzer for their installs fact. Also they did not rate OFTEC over a qualified plumber. OFTEC servicing was as guilty as any other. Unless that was a load of spin. Down to the individual. I would say half of the installs I come across that give trouble are neither plumber or OFTEC installed.

I was also in the back of that van as well. They were a couple of years slow about doing something with there issues.They did so, have to give them credit for that. A few interesting tips to be had. Also they did not rate OFTEC over a qualified plumber.Once again a qualified plumber with analyzer was suffice. More spin perhaps.

My own believe is that FAS/FETAC will take charge of an Oil Technician registry in time to come. If they do not it will question their existence and why bother with a qualified trade if you can get away with 10 days training and a license to plumb/install boilers be an expert on heating systems from looking at a few diagrams.

shane0007

We are going round in circles here. The best scenario is a plumber that is also OFTEC trained. I do not know any plumber that could advise me of all or even some of the relevant regulations governing oil storage, oil supply, environmental risks, fire protection, flues, combustion. What OFTEC does is provide a sensible method to understanding this. Regulations change and improve and it keeps installers up to date.

With regard to that manufacturer, I do not think putting a cover over the flue is resolving the issue as the issue is not caused by POC re-circulation. It is a design issue with the boiler itself. Their other resolve is to install a plume dispersal kit. It can help but is not the answer either. Site conditions determine the extent of the effect of the problem. I know a local installer who fitted one and was called back every single month with sooting issues. The manufacturer told him to fit a dispersal kit. He did at a cost to the client. Same problem. DGOBS suggested the resolve to me as the explanation of the issue made sense. I advised the installer and he has never been called back since. I have adopted DGOBS's advice with every call out and also never a call back.

Robbie.G

Of course there are problems with Oftec installers as well as others.Im not saying that if your Oftec your perfect or trained to the highest standard there is currently no body over the oil industry here Oftec I'd the only body currently here.If fas/fetec take charge that would be very good for the industry once there is someone to regulate it.As you see here on boards there are people that will try to do DIY work on oil boilers and havnt a clue what they are doin it's only a matter of time before someone gets injured from oil worse.So if there is no one else Oftec will have to be the way to go forward.Regarding them letting anyone on the course I agree totally I would
Love to see it only open to people from a trade background but when I done my gis in 2004 there was forklift drivers security guards and the like on it and done mine through fas.

Dtp79

Robbie.G wrote: »

Of course there are problems with Oftec installers as well as others.Im not saying that if your Oftec your perfect or trained to the highest standard there is currently no body over the oil industry here Oftec I'd the only body currently here.If fas/fetec take charge that would be very good for the industry once there is someone to regulate it.As you see here on boards there are people that will try to do DIY work on oil boilers and havnt a clue what they are doin it's only a matter of time before someone gets injured from oil worse.So if there is no one else Oftec will have to be the way to go forward.Regarding them letting anyone on the course I agree totally I would
Love to see it only open to people from a trade background but when I done my gis in 2004 there was forklift drivers security guards and the like on it and done mine through fas.

If you saw somebody on here asking for advice on how to change a gas valve on a gas boiler they would be told to get an RGI.

Dtp79

shane0007 wrote: »

We are going round in circles here. The best scenario is a plumber that is also OFTEC trained. I do not know any plumber that could advise me of all or even some of the relevant regulations governing oil storage, oil supply, environmental risks, fire protection, flues, combustion. What OFTEC does is provide a sensible method to understanding this. Regulations change and improve and it keeps installers up to date.

With regard to that manufacturer, I do not think putting a cover over the flue is resolving the issue as the issue is not caused by POC re-circulation. It is a design issue with the boiler itself. Their other resolve is to install a plume dispersal kit. It can help but is not the answer either. Site conditions determine the extent of the effect of the problem. I know a local installer who fitted one and was called back every single month with sooting issues. The manufacturer told him to fit a dispersal kit. He did at a cost to the client. Same problem. DGOBS suggested the resolve to me as the explanation of the issue made sense. I advised the installer and he has never been called back since. I have adopted DGOBS's advice with every call out and also never a call back.

Would you mind sharing DGOBS advice and what the problem was Shane? If you don't want to mention names you could PM me. Thanks

shane0007

Not at all. It has already been well covered here on Boards by DGOBS, myself and many others.
The issue is the design of the boiler which in their wisdom, decided to patent the upside down boiler. Having the burner and flame chamber above the baffles is what is causing the issue. The combustion chamber temperatures are circa 1,100C. At this heat, the POC's only want to rise up, but they cannot. They are forced down through the baffles and then through the secondary heat exchanger. It then travels back up to the flue via a very small passage way of circa 20mm deep. By this stage, the POC's have dropped to a much lower temperature of about 60 - 70C and therefore much slower. On windy days, combined with certain site conditions, such as boiler located on the negative pressure side of the house, the wind pressure can be greater than the pressure of the POC's exiting the flue. This leads to poor combustion, sooting and ultimately, sooting of the photocell leading to lock out. It is not a re-circulation issue.
A 0.65 US Gal/Hr nozzle allows 0.65 US Gal of kerosene through it at 7 bar pressure. The same ratio can be applied of the nozzle was slightly downsized, and the pressure was increased, the same volume of fuel is passed through the nozzle and therefore the the same kw output is achieved. The upside of greater pressure is greater combustion pressure is also achieved and it assists in overcoming the issue.
So to resolve this particular boiler issue, down size the nozzle by 0.05 - 0.1 US Gal/Hr but increase the pump pressure by 0.5 bar will generally do the trick.
The manufacturer cannot admit the problem as they are the 2nd largest selling boiler in the UK and Ireland and if they admit the problem as a design issue, the cost of rectification would be enormous. They should bring out a corrected design under a new model range and discontinue the older problematic model.

jimjimt

Those warped baffles prove the over heat.

Who says you cannot fix a boiler with a hammer !!

I love my lump hammer

Dtp79

shane0007 wrote: »

Not at all. It has already been well covered here on Boards by DGOBS, myself and many others.
The issue is the design of the boiler which in their wisdom, decided to patent the upside down boiler. Having the burner and flame chamber above the baffles is what is causing the issue. The combustion chamber temperatures are circa 1,100C. At this heat, the POC's only want to rise up, but they cannot. They are forced down through the baffles and then through the secondary heat exchanger. It then travels back up to the flue via a very small passage way of circa 20mm deep. By this stage, the POC's have dropped to a much lower temperature of about 60 - 70C and therefore much slower. On windy days, combined with certain site conditions, such as boiler located on the negative pressure side of the house, the wind pressure can be greater than the pressure of the POC's exiting the flue. This leads to poor combustion, sooting and ultimately, sooting of the photocell leading to lock out. It is not a re-circulation issue.
A 0.65 US Gal/Hr nozzle allows 0.65 US Gal of kerosene through it at 7 bar pressure. The same ratio can be applied of the nozzle was slightly downsized, and the pressure was increased, the same volume of fuel is passed through the nozzle and therefore the the same kw output is achieved. The upside of greater pressure is greater combustion pressure is also achieved and it assists in overcoming the issue.
So to resolve this particular boiler issue, down size the nozzle by 0.05 - 0.1 US Gal/Hr but increase the pump pressure by 0.5 bar will generally do the trick.
The manufacturer cannot admit the problem as they are the 2nd largest selling boiler in the UK and Ireland and if they admit the problem as a design issue, the cost of rectification would be enormous. They should bring out a corrected design under a new model range and discontinue the older problematic model.

Thanks Shane. Know exactly the boiler your on about. Have had buckled baffles too jim. Actually had so much heat that the seal holding in the burner fell apart and burnt the ****€ out of the control box and solenoid.

shane0007

Another common symptom from them is an overheated condensate trap. Have seen them completely melted and POC's bellowing out.
One other oversight installers also have is the oil tank outlet should be a minimum of 300mm above the burner. Not many oil tanks will have this when this boiler is installed.

jimjimt

One boiler I installed (c44) even after down sizing the nozzle, fitting a plume kit,slight but far less problematic than before. I ended up taking out the top baffle. No trouble since. Must have just open up the chamber a little more and less restrictions for poc's.
Of course FB told me there should be no need to do this !!!
Still waiting for a better solution.
No more baffle warps on this boiler.
Efficiency remain the same.

kscobie

And be careful if replacing a digital control box with a standard one on the FB, it doesn't work, and will burn out the standard one too:mad:

DGOBS

I also agree, OFTEC 101,105e, 600a, should only be add-ons to a qualified plumber. (as with Gas also)

But both registers at the very least (Gas/Oil) should make this distinction via the register, ie, technicians (servicing/breakdowns etc) may not need to be fully fledged plumbers in some cases, but they should all make it clear that ONLY plumbers are INSTALLERS.

FB boilers, where sooting of the photocell occurs would indicate combustion issues in the combustion chamber (as Shane says, back pressure) but if your ever concerned that recycling is the issue, lift the air intake snorkel 10 mm and drill a small sampling hole and use your analyser just as you would check for air contamination on a gas boiler before shelling out for a plume kit. When finished just replace the snorkel to cover the sample hole.
Derating the nozzle has never let me down yet. Haven't had any need to remove baffles, but can see why they could get heat damaged at the back of the combustion chamber.

jimjimt

Full details should be displayed on each register of backgrounds and qualifications. Only fair to the consumer.
Plenty of non plumbers who would be sharper that I at faultfinding. So I have to do training in fault finding.

A course should be designed for non plumbers/trade to make them installers. Pipe work etc......... On site training and work experience with experience plumbers/trades. At least a year. Course for everything else why not this ?

A trade is one academic year in college and 3 years on site and you still have to do OFTEC and gas training, solar biomass, heat pumps etc...........

Dtp79

jimjimt wrote: »

Full details should be displayed on each register of backgrounds and qualifications. Only fair to the consumer.
Plenty of non plumbers who would be sharper that I at faultfinding. So I have to do training in fault finding.

A course should be designed for non plumbers/trade to make them installers. Pipe work etc......... On site training and work experience with experience plumbers/trades. At least a year. Course for everything else why not this ?

A trade is one academic year in college and 3 years on site and you still have to do OFTEC and gas training, solar biomass, heat pumps etc...........

The current Oftec course where I trained is very good at teaching fault finding. I already knew most of the installation part but there was parts I didn't know too.
As for letting someone train for a year installing I disagree with cause I bet they wouldn't call themselves installers after the training....... They'd call themselves plumbers

Billy Bunting

they should all make it clear that ONLY plumbers are INSTALLERS.

So a Gas Service Engineer who's been installing gas heating/plumbing/boilers for 30yrs and have done their Oftec shouldn't be allowed to install an oil boiler ?

Dtp79

Billy Bunting wrote: »

So a Gas Service Engineer who's been installing gas heating/plumbing/boilers for 30yrs and have done their Oftec shouldn't be allowed to install an oil boiler ?

Of course they should be allowed. The local postman who did the Oftec course in his spare time shouldn't be allowed to Install

jimf

imho for whats its worth i think you should have the balls to admit your limitations i know i do i have no plumbing background but think at this stage my fault finding capabilities are maybe on a par with most guys servicing oil boilers but that doesnt make me a plumber so if im asked will i fit or exchange a boiler i refuse politely and recommend a good friend maybe im stupid and posters on here will laugh and say im mad but id rather know the job was done by a qualified person and its not a confidence issue in this day and age peoples money is too hard earned/saved and if they want a job done what right have i to chance my arm and make a balls of a boiler installation

Billy Bunting

jimf wrote: »

imho for whats its worth i think you should have the balls to admit your limitations i know i do i have no plumbing background but think at this stage my fault finding capabilities are maybe on a par with most guys servicing oil boilers but that doesnt make me a plumber so if im asked will i fit or exchange a boiler i refuse politely and recommend a good friend maybe im stupid and posters on here will laugh and say im mad but id rather know the job was done by a qualified person and its not a confidence issue in this day and age peoples money is too hard earned/saved and if they want a job done what right have i to chance my arm and make a balls of a boiler installation

You have it spot on Jim, just as i don't reply to topics here that arn't my strong piont i also wouldnt touch work that i'm not 100% on, and who in their right mind is going to pay out a small fortune on equipment and insurance if they know in themselves that they are just not upto it ?? to state that only plumbers should be working on oil boiler installations is away with the fairies in my book. I know lads (myself included)who were working on oil boilers and installing them long before the term "tec" was invented let alone Oftec and most of the real brilliant ones are not Oftec registered and those that are (like myself) only do so because they feel they have to, i myself commission these new installs for these "Plumbers", and most of the time send them back on them.
Oftec/Rgi inspectors are the key, my very first Oftec inspection came with the inspector asking the question, what is your past, and the RGII wanted the Certs and did the checks. The training centres could help be being honest about those they take on and the trainers not sitting back oblivious to whats going on dueing the "exam" just in order to maintain pass levels.

DGOBS

Yes, I stand over my comment that only plumbers should be installers, if they have been installing gas boilers for 30 years, they should be plumbers too!!
Obviously time served plumbers from yesteryear should have an avenue into the industry, but there should be a cut off date where only a trade cert will suffice.
But they should also be required to have addons such as Oftec/GID before installing unless these were incorporated into their 4 year apprenticeship.

Bring on SR50, as this will at least provide an Irish standard for plumbing, and in some respects give a basis for the industry to move forward.

Non plumbers in the industry should have a 'technician' status that allows them to service and repair, but not take on or sign off on installation work.

The issue with oil installations in this country is non-regulation, and will never have a chance of improving until regulation begins. The installation standard for oil in the UK is much better, even unregulated, but this is due to LABC actually doing what it says on the tin (unlike their counterparts here)

As for trainers, the system is flawed, and the exam format incorrect IMHO, but as a qualified trainer and assessor, I have never 'sat back' oblivious to what goes on in my classroom, for any course, exam or assessment. But the suggestion of a year long course for gas/oil such as the c&g on offer in the UK would be a great direction to see us going, based on continuious assessment rather that focused on multiple choice exams.

jimjimt

I would be a fan of the City & Guilds system. It is a pity Fas/Fetac would adapt it more. It would mean I could get properly trained in electrics and others. Or even training centers start doing some C&G practical courses. Its the way to go.
Along with a world recognized qualification.

If all that was to happen it might spoil our new and perfect little eco-system where Oftec's clean up after plumbers and plumbers sort out pipework after Oftec's. Maybe their would be nothing do.

jimf

just a quick question that maybe the plumbers on here might answer have any of ye had any pressure put on to become oftec members

when i did my course 3 years ago it was a very contentious issue that oftec were going to insist on all plumbers signing up

and as regards trainers on these courses personally i think it really is up to yourself as to what you want to achieve or learn from these people they obviously have the knowledge/experience so why not pick there brains as much as possible after all these guys dont really know the caliber of student thats being put on their courses until the day it starts i know i was lucky we had the nicest guy and was more than willing to dwell or discuss after any issues where you were struggling

Dtp79

jimf wrote: »

just a quick question that maybe the plumbers on here might answer have any of ye had any pressure put on to become oftec members

when i did my course 3 years ago it was a very contentious issue that oftec were going to insist on all plumbers signing up

and as regards trainers on these courses personally i think it really is up to yourself as to what you want to achieve or learn from these people they obviously have the knowledge/experience so why not pick there brains as much as possible after all these guys dont really know the caliber of student thats being put on their courses until the day it starts i know i was lucky we had the nicest guy and was more than willing to dwell or discuss after any issues where you were struggling

I wouldn't say there was any pressure to become a member. They just told us the benifets of becoming a member and that hopefully oil would become as regulated in Ireland as it is in England. But there was definately no pressure

jimjimt

jimf wrote: »

just a quick question that maybe the plumbers on here might answer have any of ye had any pressure put on to become oftec members

when i did my course 3 years ago it was a very contentious issue that oftec were going to insist on all plumbers signing up

and as regards trainers on these courses personally i think it really is up to yourself as to what you want to achieve or learn from these people they obviously have the knowledge/experience so why not pick there brains as much as possible after all these guys dont really know the caliber of student thats being put on their courses until the day it starts i know i was lucky we had the nicest guy and was more than willing to dwell or discuss after any issues where you were struggling

Just to clarify I am not anti OFTEC and there ethos and courses are good.

Oftec cannot put pressure on plumbers to join for they have no legal status in the country to do so. It is not a legal requirement. No pressure has ever been put on me or it has it ever affected my work in any way.

Also it is 10-20 days OFTEC training v 1360 days Fas Plumbing Apprenticeship training.

And their is good and bad plumbers............. and good and bad OFTEC technicians............

Part of my training with Fas as a plumber was oil appliances, pressure jet, vaporizing etc.... would have taken up a bit of time under Fas in the Cork IT. In total 1 academic year for oil appliances and loads more.
A lot of my apprenticeship over four years would have been on burners, Aga's Cleopatras were popular etc........ at the time if you had a oil pressure gauge for burners you were advanced then came the smoke pump, analyzers unheard off. I presume similar training as part of an apprenticeship today maybe not.
To the point oil servicing and installation is a big part of a plumbing apprenticeship.
So a bit unfair for OFTEC to come along and claim to be all that it is and train guys for 10 days and off you go install and service.

When condensing boilers came along I done a OFTEC 3 day course for experience plumbers. I knew with condensing boilers without a analyzer I was lost. So a worth while course and I learn a lot more than just about analyzers. Also the same year all "oil boilers could not installed without OFTEC certification !!" supposedly, that turn out to be a farce.

I am not OFTEC registered. My installs are accepted by boiler manufactures. I do work for landlords who houses are let to councils. I install boilers for people who get loans and grants from the council. All my work is accepted service, repair and install.

Since Fas/Fetac do not do follow on courses for oil I would highly recommend any plumber to do any OFTEC course money well spent.

Since I join RGII this year most of the calls I get are for oil boiler servicing figure that out ?

Dtp79

jimjimt wrote: »

Just to clarify I am not anti OFTEC and there ethos and courses are good.

Oftec cannot put pressure on plumbers to join for they have no legal status in the country to do so. It is not a legal requirement. No pressure has ever been put on me or it has it ever affected my work in any way.

Also it is 10-20 days OFTEC training v 1360 days Fas Plumbing Apprenticeship training.

And their is good and bad plumbers............. and good and bad OFTEC technicians............

Part of my training with Fas as a plumber was oil appliances, pressure jet, vaporizing etc.... would have taken up a bit of time under Fas in the Cork IT. In total 1 academic year for oil appliances and loads more.
A lot of my apprenticeship over four years would have been on burners, Aga's Cleopatras were popular etc........ at the time if you had a oil pressure gauge for burners you were advanced then came the smoke pump, analyzers unheard off. I presume similar training as part of an apprenticeship today maybe not.
To the point oil servicing and installation is a big part of a plumbing apprenticeship.
So a bit unfair for OFTEC to come along and claim to be all that it is and train guys for 10 days and off you go install and service.

When condensing boilers came along I done a OFTEC 3 day course for experience plumbers. I knew with condensing boilers without a analyzer I was lost. So a worth while course and I learn a lot more than just about analyzers. Also the same year all "oil boilers could not installed without OFTEC certification !!" supposedly, that turn out to be a farce.

I am not OFTEC registered. My installs are accepted by boiler manufactures. I do work for landlords who houses are let to councils. I install boilers for people who get loans and grants from the council. All my work is accepted service, repair and install.

Since Fas/Fetac do not do follow on courses for oil I would highly recommend any plumber to do any OFTEC course money well spent.

Since I join RGII this year most of the calls I get are for oil boiler servicing figure that out ?

As in they look up RGI website and ask you to service an oil boiler???

jimjimt

Dtp79 wrote: »

As in they look up RGI website and ask you to service an oil boiler???

Yes nuts but who am I to complain. I am only join since October 4 gas boilers service, 5 oil boiler service, 1 cooker install and 1 boiler install. A cooker install in Jan. Along with some general plumbing work overall. I am happy with it along with my general work. At least now I have just broke even after paying for the courses.
I think people just looking for a plumber in general so they are using it as a directory. It can only get better.

Dtp79

jimjimt wrote: »

Yes nuts but who am I to complain. I am only join since October 4 gas boilers service, 5 oil boiler service, 1 cooker install and 1 boiler install. A cooker install in Jan. Along with some general plumbing work overall. I am happy with it along with my general work. At least now I have just broke even after paying for the courses.
I think people just looking for a plumber in general so they are using it as a directory. It can only get better.

Ye I'm kinda in the same boat as you. Joined RGI around the same time but didn't get any oil boiler service from it. Good bit of gas though

jimjimt

Dtp79 wrote: »

Ye I'm kinda in the same boat as you. Joined RGI around the same time but didn't get any oil boiler service from it. Good bit of gas though

Mostly local so most likely just a lookup for a number.

Their is a private RGI Tech forum give DGOBS a pm if you are interested with your details. A bit to gain and learn in their.

Dtp79

jimjimt wrote: »

Mostly local so most likely just a lookup for a number.

Their is a private RGI Tech forum give DGOBS a pm if you are interested with your details. A bit to gain and learn in their.

Yea I know about it alright. I've pm'd him but I don't think they delivered. Probably something I didn't do right. I'm only new to boards

jimjimt

Dtp79 wrote: »

Yea I know about it alright. I've pm'd him but I don't think they delivered. Probably something I didn't do right. I'm only new to boards

Forward a pm to me if you like. I let you know if it is working.

DGOBS

Just to clarify guys, oil in the UK is not regulated by Oftec, it's the LABC and that's only for installs, commissioning and oil tank installs.

inglenook

shane0007 wrote: »

Not at all. It has already been well covered here on Boards by DGOBS, myself and many others.
The issue is the design of the boiler which in their wisdom, decided to patent the upside down boiler. Having the burner and flame chamber above the baffles is what is causing the issue. The combustion chamber temperatures are circa 1,100C. At this heat, the POC's only want to rise up, but they cannot. They are forced down through the baffles and then through the secondary heat exchanger. It then travels back up to the flue via a very small passage way of circa 20mm deep. By this stage, the POC's have dropped to a much lower temperature of about 60 - 70C and therefore much slower. On windy days, combined with certain site conditions, such as boiler located on the negative pressure side of the house, the wind pressure can be greater than the pressure of the POC's exiting the flue. This leads to poor combustion, sooting and ultimately, sooting of the photocell leading to lock out. It is not a re-circulation issue.
A 0.65 US Gal/Hr nozzle allows 0.65 US Gal of kerosene through it at 7 bar pressure. The same ratio can be applied of the nozzle was slightly downsized, and the pressure was increased, the same volume of fuel is passed through the nozzle and therefore the the same kw output is achieved. The upside of greater pressure is greater combustion pressure is also achieved and it assists in overcoming the issue.
So to resolve this particular boiler issue, down size the nozzle by 0.05 - 0.1 US Gal/Hr but increase the pump pressure by 0.5 bar will generally do the trick.
The manufacturer cannot admit the problem as they are the 2nd largest selling boiler in the UK and Ireland and if they admit the problem as a design issue, the cost of rectification would be enormous. They should bring out a corrected design under a new model range and discontinue the older problematic model.

Fitted an "upside down" oil boiler 15 months ago and was called to investigate problem. Found trap melted and evidence of spilled P.O.C's. I don't want to fit another trap, just for same thing to happen. Sorry if I'm being slow, but can't see why increasing the nozzle pressure through a smaller orafice (nozzle) would increase combustion chamber pressure, since the oil volume delivered would be the same. So not sure if this would solve the problem. I'll bow to your greater experience in the matter, since I can't think of a solution myself, though I'd much prefer to understand! New to this "board" business and this is first attempt at "posting", so hopeful it might prove useful and I've posted this in a correct manner.

shane0007

inglenook wrote: »

Fitted an "upside down" oil boiler 15 months ago and was called to investigate problem. Found trap melted and evidence of spilled P.O.C's. I don't want to fit another trap, just for same thing to happen. Sorry if I'm being slow, but can't see why increasing the nozzle pressure through a smaller orafice (nozzle) would increase combustion chamber pressure, since the oil volume delivered would be the same. So not sure if this would solve the problem. I'll bow to your greater experience in the matter, since I can't think of a solution myself, though I'd much prefer to understand! New to this "board" business and this is first attempt at "posting", so hopeful it might prove useful and I've posted this in a correct manner.

Welcome to Boards, but first off no bowing required. There are far greater & more knowledgeable contributors than me here & we are all willing to help one another.

The issue & fix that I have covered resolves a sooting issue that is particular to that boiler & can be worse with particular site conditions & on windy days.
Your particular problem is probably due to a mixture of issues. The poor boiler combustion throughput leads to a higher flue temperature as heat is backed up within the combustion chamber/secondary heat exchanger/trap plus perhaps a few other consumables thrown in there also.

What are the parameters of the install such as boiler model, kw, circulating pump size, house sqft, number of rads, etc.?
Is the boiler over-sized for the demand?
Is the pump under-sized?

I have seen this particular issue with this boiler on a number of occasions but certain criteria was present.

inglenook

Wow shane! Having just posted for the first time, I then thought, there are hundreds of boards on a huge variety of subjects, so curious how you knew of my post so quickly. Delighted though! Re boiler in question, I'm carefull in commissioning and make sure combustion is spot on with manufacturer's data. I serviced said boiler approx. 3 months ago and there was virtually no soot, the secondry exchanger was extremely clean! The pump is not undersized for system size. However, it was a replacement boiler, and output was sized to be comparable to the old boiler. Perhaps it would be a good idea for me to measure the current rad, hot water cylinder requirements, and hopefully find the boiler oversized, in which case could fit smaller nozzle. On a related topic. I read that the POC's go through a 20mm or so channel, but I can't see an obvious way that this could be inspected/cleaned. Many thanks.

shane0007

inglenook wrote: »

Wow shane! Having just posted for the first time, I then thought, there are hundreds of boards on a huge veraity of subjects, so curiouse how you knew of my post so quickly. Delighted though!

It's all being part of the inner circle! Just kidding, you can set up subscriptions to the threads you post in through your User Control Panel. It will email you when somebody posts in a thread that you have.

inglenook wrote: »

Re boiler in question, I'm carefull in commissioning and make sure combustion is spot on with manufacturers data. I serviced said boiler approx. 3 months ago and there was virtually no soot, the secondry exchanger was extremely clean! The pump is not undersized for system size. However, it was a replacement boiler, and output was sized to be comparable to the old boiler. Perhaps it would be a good idea for me to measure the current rad, hot water cylinder requirements, and hopefully find the boiler oversized, in which case could fit smaller nozzle. On a related topic. I read that the POC's go through a 20mm or so channel, but I can't see an obvious way that this could be inspected/cleaned. Many thanks.

I would not set that particular boiler up to exact MI's. You need to be setting CO2 at about 11.2 - 11.3%. The loss in efficiency would be fairly immeasurable but will run much cleaner. The higher pump pressure will compensate for the smaller throughput of the nozzle => no loss in kw output. It will also give more combustion throughput.
The small flueway at the back of the boiler can only be cleaned through the flue itself from the external. For completely sooted boilers, I usually use a power washer outside, and wash back into the boiler until it runs clear through the condensate pipe externally. Be careful not to allow water down the air intake as this will lead to the burner fan!
What size pump did you install, a 25/50 or a 25/60? Also what brand?

inglenook

Sorry, can't be specific. The boiler was an "emergency" replacement, fitted in a rush so customer could have a warm Christmas. So did not have time to check boiler output required, or pump. I replaced the pump as per the old one as it seemed to be functioning adequately. It was a larger than usual domestic pump. Going by memory, which is extremely fallible,it was something like a grundfos 40/80. (I remember it was pretty expensive!) I'll check it when I get a chance to go back an refamiliarise myself with the job. Sound advice re the cleaning of flue way, though due to lack of soot as mentioned can't see me going down that line, but good to know in case I come across a badly sooted boiler of this type. I'll certainly adjust CO2 as you suggested when there. Thanks again!

shane0007

It is much more important & detrimental if a condensing boiler is not correctly sized to an installation. They should be more under-sized if anything compared to a conventional boiler. The delta T for SE boilers is 11C whilst for HE, it is 20C. Therefore, the rads should be over-sized or the boiler slightly under-sized. Circulation is a major issue & again must be sized correctly. Most systems I come across have under-sized pumps. Remember SE boilers have FG temps of circa 200C & HE circa 50C so more heat going to the heating rather than the flue. If it cannot be pumped away from the boiler quick enough, then well melted condensates, etc.

If a client is screaming "I need heat now & before Xmas" you can waive a disclaimer at them to sign indemnifying you against over-sizing the boiler, saving them money, etc., etc. I am sure they would not mind waiting a extra hour or two for their heat.

inglenook

shane0007 wrote: »

It's all being part of the inner circle! Just kidding, you can set up subscriptions to the threads you post in through your User Control Panel. It will email you when somebody posts in a thread that you have.



I would not set that particular boiler up to exact MI's. You need to be setting CO2 at about 11.2 - 11.3%. The loss in efficiency would be fairly immeasurable but will run much cleaner. The higher pump pressure will compensate for the smaller throughput of the nozzle => no loss in kw output. It will also give more combustion throughput.
The small flueway at the back of the boiler can only be cleaned through the flue itself from the external. For completely sooted boilers, I usually use a power washer outside, and wash back into the boiler until it runs clear through the condensate pipe externally. Be careful not to allow water down the air intake as this will lead to the burner fan!
What size pump did you install, a 25/50 or a 25/60? Also what brand?

My head is now buzzing with variables! Could the pump be oversized, ie, not allowing large enough temp. difference between flow, return? It's a large rambling house, with various extentions over it's history, so it would be difficult to ascertain the index circuit re pump head required etc. How can I determine wind variables etc, without a recording anemometer for example? Think I'll stop thinking till I get back to the job and get relevant facts!

shane0007

Lol