Electricity in Ireland

jester77 · 20-12-2012 11:05AM

upstairs for coffee wrote: »

Rural people don't want wind turbines as it isn't aesthetically pleasing! :rolleyes:

As opposed to their one off mansions that are dotted all over the landscape. They be a strange bread, those country folk :rolleyes:

Gurgle · 20-12-2012 11:21AM

Dempsey wrote: »

Also ,man made reservoirs have been proven to cause climate change in their local region, i.e. more rainfail.

This doesn't ring true, can you link to a source please?

Immaculate Pasta · 20-12-2012 11:25AM

WanabeOlympian wrote: »

I know our government don't really plan in the far future but seeing as we are living on an island, do you think we should stop buying in billions of euro worth of fossil fuels? Instead use wind and wave energy. We're surrounded by sea and lots of wind. I'm sure the infrastructure would be very expensive but if we want to consider what Ireland will be like for young Irish kids today when they are adults, I think we need to start ditching the coal burning stations the esb still use. I assume wind/wave energy will bring the cost down eventually..

Wind up merchant.

Fromthetrees · 20-12-2012 11:41AM

I'm with Bord Gais and don't have gas. :cool:

Dempsey · 20-12-2012 11:42AM

Gurgle wrote: »

This doesn't ring true, can you link to a source please?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-20663875

Researchers say that large man-made reservoirs can increase the intensity of rainfall and could affect flood defences.

Popular Science Mod eh? :cool::pac:

Gurgle · 20-12-2012 12:08PM

Dempsey wrote: »

Popular Science Mod eh? :cool::pac:

Hence the skeptical request for evidence of your statement:

man made reservoirs have been proven to cause climate change in their local region, i.e. more rainfail.

Well justified skepticism too, its not a 'before and after' study just an observation:

The scientists found that rain patterns around bodies of water in Chile were much higher than in similar areas without them.

Whats a 'similar area'? Dams and reservoirs are built in very carefully chosen locations with particular characteristics.

There is evidence that standing bodies like reservoirs and lakes can alter rain patterns by increasing the amount of water that evaporates.

That sounds pretty reasonable. Warm climate, lots of sunshine and massive surface area.

Dr Faisal Hossain, from Tennessee Technological University, said the Chilean study was purely observational and that while the lake effect changed rainfall patterns, the jury was still out on whether it increased or decreased the amounts.

And the department for pointing out the surprisingly obvious brings us this nugget:

Prof Richard Harding from the UK Centre for Ecology and Hydrology (CEH) said several studies had now pointed to the impact of reservoirs particularly in dry areas.

Dempsey · 20-12-2012 12:35PM

*YAWN*

Man made Reservoirs have an impact on their local enviroment in many ways, climate is one of them. Picking holes in the language used in a BBC article wont change that. :rolleyes:

podgemonster · 20-12-2012 01:40PM

WanabeOlympian wrote: »

I know our government don't really plan in the far future but seeing as we are living on an island, do you think we should stop buying in billions of euro worth of fossil fuels? Instead use wind and wave energy. We're surrounded by sea and lots of wind. I'm sure the infrastructure would be very expensive but if we want to consider what Ireland will be like for young Irish kids today when they are adults, I think we need to start ditching the coal burning stations the esb still use. I assume wind/wave energy will bring the cost down eventually..

Our government nearly have most of the future plans laid out to them by Europe. The target is for our electricity to be 40% by 2020 set by the EU. In 2011 17% of Ireland generation capacity came from wind energy so it definetly has in impact in reducing our Co2 emissions and made us more sustainable.

Bringing down the cost is a more complicated issue. Wind farms are reliant on the REFIT scheme to subsidise the cost of building and connection. On the top of that wind farms are variable price takers in the market so they recieve the same price per MW/h as the most expensive unit on the system with the price changing every 30 minutes. In order for the price of electricity to go down the CER need to review and redesign how the market operates but bearing in mind that if this lowers the profit predictions of the wind developers they may not proceed with some projects or be rejected funding from financial insitiutions.

Suppliers like Electric Ireland, Airtricity etc... set their prices for electricity of certain periods of time (several months) so if their are high penetrations of wind over that period and cheap electricity the end users (i.e. us) don't reap the benefits of it until the next price shift. But naturally these suppliers are businesses and required to make a profit so setting their prices too low and then having a period of low wind and high fossil fuel generation could ruin them. The price end users pay for electricty needs to more dynamic and transparent and hopefully will be addressed with the "Smart Grid" idea thats been thrown around the energy industry.

While fossil fuels are imported and expensive. They are reliable and able provide power reserve capabilities something which windfarms cannot do yet. Reactive power support (supports the MWs to flow along the transmission lines) is readily available from these generators (as is with hydro units hence how Brazil, Sweden and Portugal can claim high percentage of wind integretion as the system problems caused by wind are solve by their hydro units).

Removing the generators with these capabilites while our wind capacity is increasing would be a mistake unless we continue increasing our interconnection and install reactive support devices.

Pumped storage is flexible, reliable and efficient way of producing electricity, a perfect partner to a system with high levels of fluctuating level of wind although very high investment and public acceptance needed to get a project built. I have never heard of any flooding issues report at Irelands pumped storage unit at Turlough Hill.

Bascially there is no simple answer, these are interesting times. We will be 40% renewable by 2020 but other steps need to be made to the market to reduce the cost to the end user and changes to make us less reliant on fossil fuel from a system security perspective.

Funk It · 20-12-2012 07:07PM

CruelCoin wrote: »

There is enough coal reserves to last us at least another 150 years, thats not something that fluctuates wildly in price.

Wave is interesting, but to power dublin, you would need a floating island the size of cork to power it. That is an obscene amount of resources for something we already have the infrastructure for.....

Wind is also iffy, as precisely the time you need the power (winter) is the time the winds blows the weakest....

Wind and wave to power all our needs is a fantasy.

Yes, wind is intermittent, but thats not to say that it isn't effective during times of high energy demands during winter. Today for example, onshore and offshore wind connected to the UK transmission system accounted for ~10% of the total electrical generation (taken from the BM Reports), but on the flip side the wind generation for tomorrow is predicted to be an awfully lot less.

You say that wave energy is interesting, and I totally agree with you (as sad as it sounds I personally love wave power), but it has to be remembered that waves are stored forms of wind energy. Therefore low levels of wind over the Atlantic = low level of waves hitting the Irish coast. This backs up your last point, that there is no way that you can balance an electrical system with just wind and wave.

Funk It · 20-12-2012 07:16PM

kneemos wrote: »

So investers can cover the country in turbines and rake in subsidies for decades no matter what happens in energy developement?

Short answer, yes.

My experience and knowledge is mainly with the UK subsidy models, but the Irish REFIT is based on more or less the same principles (NI operates under the RO). Subsidies used to be locked in for a 25 year period for some technologies, and are now locked in and guaranteed for a 20 year period. Both the FIT and ROC buy-out prices are then linked to annual RPI increases. The energy price that a generator gets paid on top of this for their export is then depended on the market which is the interesting part.

Capt'n Midnight · 20-12-2012 07:29PM

Funk It wrote: »

there is no way that you can balance an electrical system with just wind and wave.

why do people keep dragging that up.

No one is suggesting that wind + wave alone would work.

You could put 5GW of wind/wave here, and a 5GW interconnector to Norway (via Scotland) and pay for 5GW hydro and another 5G of wind/wave In Norway. Expensive but it could be done.

Funk It · 20-12-2012 07:46PM

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

why do people keep dragging that up.

I'm not too sure.

No one is suggesting that wind + wave alone would work.

I know, was just responding to the other post.

kneemos · 20-12-2012 09:04PM

Funk It wrote: »

Short answer, yes.

My experience and knowledge is mainly with the UK subsidy models, but the Irish REFIT is based on more or less the same principles (NI operates under the RO). Subsidies used to be locked in for a 25 year period for some technologies, and are now locked in and guaranteed for a 20 year period. Both the FIT and ROC buy-out prices are then linked to annual RPI increases. The energy price that a generator gets paid on top of this for their export is then depended on the market which is the interesting part.

It's a bit galling to have these things covering the countryside just to fulfill an EU directive,there's five farms within 25km of where I live and the novelity is beginning to wear off.If they were exporting their electricity and making money perhaps I could appreciate their beauty a bit better.

Funk It · 20-12-2012 09:25PM

kneemos wrote: »

It's a bit galling to have these things covering the countryside just to fulfill an EU directive,there's five farms within 25km of where I live and the novelity is beginning to wear off.If they were exporting their electricity and making money perhaps I could appreciate their beauty a bit better.

They are starting to bring in incentives to communities who live near wind farm to avail of cheaper energy prices and also investment (which may soon become mandatory) in community schemes. I know that 1 energy supplier is already doing it off their own backs at the moment, but there is a big call for increased incentives from developers/suppliers for local communities.

You are correct about the EU directive being a driving force, but I still believe that securing a good % of our own electricity from renewable sources will help to protect us from rising costs of traditional energy sources in a volatile global market.

Capt'n Midnight · 20-12-2012 09:47PM

kneemos wrote: »

If they were exporting their electricity and making money perhaps I could appreciate their beauty a bit better.

How about if they were helping our balance of payments by reducing our imports of fossil fuel ?

kneemos · 20-12-2012 10:20PM

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

How about if they were helping our balance of payments by reducing our imports of fossil fuel ?

Which is off set by the subsidies paid to run the things.

Zen65 · 20-12-2012 10:32PM

petersburg2002 wrote: »

Was amazed to find out that over 85% of electricity in Brazil comes from renewable resources, with the vast majority from hydro plants. Surely, we can do better than we are doing at the moment.

Do you know of any suitable large rivers in Ireland which have not had hydro plants installed? Even the Ardnacrusha plant is pitifully small in the context of the overall consumption in Ireland. Brazil is fortunate to have substantial natural water resources. Ireland less so.

Z

Funk It · 20-12-2012 10:58PM

kneemos wrote: »

Which is off set by the subsidies paid to run the things.

Subsidies are controllable though. You can see as onshore wind is becoming competitive with conventional generation the subsidies are being reduced. Prices for fossil fuel resources are not as easily managed or controlled.

I know myself that I would like to know that over the next 10 or so years, that x amount /MWh will be added to my bill for renewable energy and grid developments, rather than being dependent on fossil fuel prices. I am a gambling man, but I would never bet everything on something such as gas, coal and oil prices staying low (can even uranium to that list), whereas the price per unit of renewables is reducing all of the time.

Zen65 · 20-12-2012 11:09PM

podgemonster wrote: »

Our government nearly have most of the future plans laid out to them by Europe. The target is for our electricity to be 40% by 2020 set by the EU.

As best I can recall, Ireland's self-imposed renewable energy target is more ambitious than the EU Directive. According to the people in UCD the level of installed renewable energy on the Irish grid is one of the highest in the world, and Ireland is generally regarded as being among the world's most advanced for 'Smart Grid' technology. Perhaps the OP should give more credit to the Irish for their ingenuity?

The suggestion of wave energy as part of our strategy is fanciful. When I was around 10 (and Raymond Baxter used to introduce Tomorrow's World on BBC) we were told that wave energy was just 10 years away. Nearly 40 years later there are no commercial wave generators in operation on the planet. Ireland has experimented with tidal energy, but the turbines quickly fell to pieces in the water.

Z

Funk It · 20-12-2012 11:53PM

Zen65 wrote: »

As best I can recall, Ireland's self-imposed renewable energy target is more ambitious than the EU Directive. According to the people in UCD the level of installed renewable energy on the Irish grid is one of the highest in the world, and Ireland is generally regarded as being among the world's most advanced for 'Smart Grid' technology. Perhaps the OP should give more credit to the Irish for their ingenuity?

The suggestion of wave energy as part of our strategy is fanciful. When I was around 10 (and Raymond Baxter used to introduce Tomorrow's World on BBC) we were told that wave energy was just 10 years away. Nearly 40 years later there are no commercial wave generators in operation on the planet. Ireland has experimented with tidal energy, but the turbines quickly fell to pieces in the water.

The problem here is that a lot of tidal devices were based on existing wind turbine designs, thats just not going to cut it in the harsher marine environment. I also have a problem with people always claiming that tidal power is predictable, and yes they are correct, but it is also a highly variable resource which constantly gets overlooked.

Not a whole lot has gone on in terms of wave energy development until recently. Some big players in the global marine industry are quietly making their way into the marine energy industry which will bring badly needed expertise.

Was interesting to see who is getting involved in wave energy in Ireland:
http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/son-of-charlie-haughey-seeks-3m-to-harness-irish-sea-power-3266296.html

Zen65 · 21-12-2012 12:40AM

Funk It wrote: »

Some big players in the global marine industry are quietly making their way into the marine energy industry which will bring badly needed expertise.

Hmm, wake me when they start commercial production. I may be in an old-folk home by then!

Z

Capt'n Midnight · 21-12-2012 02:19AM

Zen65 wrote: »

Hmm, wake me when they start commercial production. I may be in an old-folk home by then!

Z

noises are being made but still no major investment
the target is 300MW tidal for NI in the next 8 years

http://www.energyireland.ie/northern-irelands-offshore-potential

https://www.esb.ie/main/press/pressreleaseWS.jsp?id=471

http://www.siemens.co.uk/pool/news_press/news_archive/2012/seagen-achieves-5gwh-tidal-power-generation-milestone.pdf

5 September 2012
World-leading tidal energy system achieves 5GWh milestone
SeaGen, the first commercial-scale tidal stream energy system has achieved
a new milestone of 5 gigawatt-hours (GWh) of tidal power generation since
starting operation at Strangford Lough in Northern Ireland.

...
The two initial tidal array projects, the 8-MW Kyle
Rhea project in Scotland and the 10-MW AngleseySkerries project in Wales, are now in an
advanced stage of development
...
Tidal turbines are part of Siemens’ Environmental Portfolio. In fiscal 2011,
revenue from the Portfolio totaled about €30 billion, making Siemens one of the
world’s largest suppliers of ecofriendly technologies. In the same period, our
products and solutions enabled customers to reduce their carbon dioxide (CO2)
emissions by nearly 320 million tons, an amount equal to the total annual CO2
emissions of Berlin, Delhi, Hong Kong, Istanbul, London, New York, Singapore and
Tokyo.

kneemos · 21-12-2012 07:58AM

I know power stations are running constantly but are they wound down in direct proportion to the amount of wind energy going to the grid or is there just an extra surplus on windy days?or are we actually saving that much on fossil fuels?

Funk It · 21-12-2012 08:38AM

kneemos wrote: »

I know power stations are running constantly but are they wound down in direct proportion to the amount of wind energy going to the grid or is there just an extra surplus on windy days?or are we actually saving that much on fossil fuels?

In short, yes.

If the grid is running low they generators be asked to bring more gas/coal generation online.

sparksfly · 21-12-2012 08:50AM

Cienciano wrote: »

Strange post. "ireland" isn't one guy who decides what to spend his money on. We can blame property developers for some things alright, but for not putting their money into developing alternative energy is stretching it.

"Ireland" means policy makers-government, who are primarily responsible for allowing, no, encouraging the developers run riot while having almost no interest in developing an alternative energy policy.

LordSutch · 21-12-2012 09:03AM

Cow farts!

What about harvesting the gas from cow sheds? I can't remember the figure now, but apparently cows make an awful
lot of gas as a by-product of their digestive systems, couldn't that be harvested & transported via LPG type tankers?

http://www.rtnltd.co.uk/Data/Sites/1/userfiles/wincanton12tonnelpg.jpg

Half tongue in cheek, half serious, because it might be viable?

2 stroke · 21-12-2012 10:17AM

We should save up our wind and waves while helping the world use up all their fossil fuels. Then when the time is ripe, we should sell sell sell.

Capt'n Midnight · 21-12-2012 12:51PM

kneemos wrote: »

I know power stations are running constantly but are they wound down in direct proportion to the amount of wind energy going to the grid or is there just an extra surplus on windy days?or are we actually saving that much on fossil fuels?

http://www.eirgrid.com/operations/systemperformancedata/windgeneration/

you can see the forecast for wind for the next few hours

podgemonster · 21-12-2012 12:52PM

Zen65 wrote: »

As best I can recall, Ireland's self-imposed renewable energy target is more ambitious than the EU Directive.

Irelands targets are in line with Europes Unions 2009/28/EC energy and climate targets. The drive for developing renewable energy stems from Europe. The EC then set out a National Renewable Energy Action Plans (NREAP) template. From this, our government set our NREAP a 40% renewable target for electricity by 2020.

Zen65 wrote: »

According to the people in UCD the level of installed renewable energy on the Irish grid is one of the highest in the world.

This is well published you don't need to ask UCD. It's not so much the MW level of wind installed (which is 2GW and growing) but the instantaeous penetration of wind we can maintain on the system which at the moment is unprecedented. Ireland on several occasions last year was 50% powered by wind in real time and that is to grow to 75% from now to 2020 providing the right approaches are made to operational policys and generator requirements.

Its impressive because we are a single synchronous island unlike mainland Europe with is well interconnectered via AC lines.

Zen65 wrote: »

and Ireland is generally regarded as being among the world's most advanced for 'Smart Grid' technology. Perhaps the OP should give more credit to the Irish for their ingenuity?

Smart Grid initiatives maybe but I don't see how we are world leaders from a Smart Grid technology perspective, perhaps you could expand on this? Ireland is at the forefront of renewable energy integretion but i think we should hold off on the champagne until the 2020 targets are met.

Also in reference to Ardnacrusha being pitiful?: At the time of its completion in 1927 it could be power the entire country and was the largest hydroelectric plant in the world before by overtaken by the Hoover dam. 85 years later is is still an integral part of the ireland generation portfolio. All built by a Irish Free State that was only 4-5 years in existence, that deserves alot of credit!

Zen65 · 21-12-2012 09:12PM

podgemonster wrote: »

..... but I don't see how we are world leaders from a Smart Grid technology perspective, perhaps you could expand on this?

There are several technologies on trial here in Ireland with integration between generation, consumption (smart meters including dual-fuel), consumer behaviour (time-of-use tariff and in-home display units) as well as storage (pumped storage and electric vehicle charging) which are far more advanced than you'd find in most countries. Italy may have rolled out 100% smart meters, but they only use them to get rid of meter readers and stop theft!

This is well published you don't need to ask UCD.

Perhaps it is, but UCD does have an independent Energy Research Centre so they have credibility. Also, I like UCD.

Also in reference to Ardnacrusha being pitiful?: At the time of its completion in 1927 it could be power the entire country and was the largest hydroelectric plant in the world before by overtaken by the Hoover dam. 85 years later is is still an integral part of the ireland generation portfolio.

I'm well aware of the historical position of Ardnacrusha and I'm not dismissing its role, but it is the largest hydro scheme in Ireland and it's output is very small in the context of our total generation. If we built a new plant on the same scale as Ardnacrusha it would hardly make a dent in our renewable energy %. The truth is that we don't have enough big rivers to exploit hydro power much more than we already do.

Z

EDIT: I've just opened my "Engineers Journal" this month to see that IBM have ranked Ireland 3rd in the world for most advanced smart networks.

Electricity in Ireland

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