Electricity in Ireland

WanabeOlympian

I know our government don't really plan in the far future but seeing as we are living on an island, do you think we should stop buying in billions of euro worth of fossil fuels? Instead use wind and wave energy. We're surrounded by sea and lots of wind. I'm sure the infrastructure would be very expensive but if we want to consider what Ireland will be like for young Irish kids today when they are adults, I think we need to start ditching the coal burning stations the esb still use. I assume wind/wave energy will bring the cost down eventually..

SEPT 23 1989

You forgot about Nuclear Power

kneemos

Too expensive.

WanabeOlympian

That's a whole other thread. Just going with stuff Irish people would actually find acceptable and we can work on now.

Sauve

WanabeOlympian wrote: »

I know our government don't really plan in the far future but seeing as we are living on an island, do you think we should stop buying in billions of euro worth of fossil fuels? Instead use wind and wave energy. We're surrounded by sea and lots of wind. I'm sure the infrastructure would be very expensive but if we want to consider what Ireland will be like for young Irish kids today when they are adults, I think we need to start ditching the coal burning stations the esb still use. I assume wind/wave energy will bring the cost down eventually..

I've the clothes-line strung across the beach and the fridge is plugged into the tidal marks on the pier.

fasttalkerchat

Surely it would make more sense to use only the cheapest forms for the next decade or two. (Cheapest factoring in emissions fines)

DEFTLEFTHAND

WanabeOlympian wrote: »

That's a whole other thread. Just going with stuff Irish people would actually find acceptable and we can work on now.

I've noticed a rise in the number of wind farms in the country over the last decade so I presume there is a move at foot to increase it's usage.

spank_inferno

When shale gas production increases in Europe electricity prices will probably drop back, seeing as natural gas is the biggest generating fuel used.

Wind & wave cannot compete with Gas on price.
Wind etc is far from "free" energy and is sporadic in its availability.

kneemos

WanabeOlympian wrote: »

I know our government don't really plan in the far future but seeing as we are living on an island, do you think we should stop buying in billions of euro worth of fossil fuels? Instead use wind and wave energy. We're surrounded by sea and lots of wind. I'm sure the infrastructure would be very expensive but if we want to consider what Ireland will be like for young Irish kids today when they are adults, I think we need to start ditching the coal burning stations the esb still use. I assume wind/wave energy will bring the cost down eventually..

How is closing a few power stations going to change Ireland for our kids?

spank_inferno

kneemos wrote: »

How is closing a few power stations going to change Ireland for our kids?

They will grow more accustomed to seeing in the dark.

upstairs for coffee

Rural people don't want wind turbines as it isn't aesthetically pleasing! :rolleyes:

kneemos

upstairs for coffee wrote: »

Rural people don't want wind turbines as it isn't aesthetically pleasing! :rolleyes:

They're also subsidised because they don't make money.

stimpson

We should run the gas off the electricity and the electricity off the gas.

Corvo

upstairs for coffee wrote: »

Rural people don't want wind turbines as it isn't aesthetically pleasing! :rolleyes:

Well I don't find them aesthetically pleasing!



Rural people that is...

Don't mind the turbines!

Chuck Stone

kneemos wrote: »

They're also subsidised because they don't make money.

If oil companies had to build roads do you think they'd sell as much petrol.

james142

Most 'clean' energy sources are unreliable. Windmills only make electricity when its windy, solar-panels when its sunny etc.. Wasn't there a post a while ago with something to do with Germany's problem with their clean energy sources, the amount of power coming from these sources varied which strained the grid or something along the lines of that..

Capt'n Midnight

WanabeOlympian wrote: »

I think we need to start ditching the coal burning stations the esb still use.

They are already down to their last station.

Renewables already produce as much of our electricity as coal.


As for the rest, brush up on economics. Fossil fuel is used because it's cheap and can be used on demand.


It would be nice if you had a smart meter so you could set your washing machine to run at the cheapest price before Thursday , or have water (still) hot enough for a bath by 11pm as it may be cheaper to overheat the water earlier


But yeah we could probably get a better return on investment spending a few billion or so into insulating houses and offices than on building new plant to provide the heat that is currently going to waste. ( this applies to renewable, fossil fuel and nuclear)

donegal_road

we could have developed alternative energy over the last 15 or so years, but 'Ireland' blew pretty much every last available cent and more, on developments that are lying abandoned or vacant all over the world

dxhound2005

There will be no big overnight change but as fossil fuels run out the renewables will gradually have to take over. As it happens there was an item on the news today about a new way of storing surplus wind energy (either that or a nice free commercial on RTE for Glen Dimplex)

http://www.rte.ie/news/news1pm/player.html?20121219,20129506,20129506,flash,232

I was surprised to hear that last Christmas Day 42% of electricity consumed in the country came from wind. As technology develops wind, solar and wave should become more efficient. Overly depending on something like Russian gas could be risky.

On an individual basis the easiest way for people to economise is to not waste electricity. Simple things like not leaving TV's or lights on when not needed or only boiling as much water in the kettle as is needed would save a lot of money. But we live in a very affluent country which is able to throw away hundreds of Euros worth of food per household every year (on average) so these sort of things are not a consideration for most people at present.

If I was going to be around for the next 50 years and had money to invest I would get into the alternative energy sector.

kristopher_1

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

You forgot about Nuclear Power

Absolutely, It's extremely popular in Japan.

Cookie_Monster

a mini turbine and PV solar and thermal solar on every rooftop would go a long way
But then OP you'd have to pay for it yourself and would bitch about the price.

KyussBishop

The price of oil is likely only going to go on up into the future (though there is room for reducing it some now, due to market speculation), so it's inevitable: we need to change our infrastructure, to be less dependent on oil, and the sooner the better.

If we don't prepare, we're going to have another economic catastrophe in a decade or two, when the availability of cheap (easy to extract) oil, starts a permanent decline.


There's actually no better time to do it than right now either: We have loads of idle workers, and an idle construction industry, so the EU could pump truly enormous amounts of printed money into this, without any significant inflationary cost (the main potential for inflation being wages, which can be managed with fiscal policy, as already happens).

This can be done without adding to our public debt, can solve the unemployment problem, solves future energy problems and prevents inflation from that (when oil prices would otherwise push the price of everything up), and solves the economic crisis, because workers wages from that will stimulate the economy, setting us on the path to gradual recovery.

kneemos

The consequence of shale oil and gas production will have a huge impact on the price of oil and the longevity of supplies.

Sergeant

KyussBishop wrote: »

The price of oil is likely only going to go on up into the future (though there is room for reducing it some now, due to market speculation), so it's inevitable: we need to change our infrastructure, to be less dependent on oil, and the sooner the better.

If we don't prepare, we're going to have another economic catastrophe in a decade or two, when the availability of cheap (easy to extract) oil, starts a permanent decline.


There's actually no better time to do it than right now either: We have loads of idle workers, and an idle construction industry, so the EU could pump truly enormous amounts of printed money into this, without any significant inflationary cost (the main potential for inflation being wages, which can be managed with fiscal policy, as already happens).

This can be done without adding to our public debt, can solve the unemployment problem, solves future energy problems and prevents inflation from that (when oil prices would otherwise push the price of everything up), and solves the economic crisis, because workers wages from that will stimulate the economy, setting us on the path to gradual recovery.

Any excuse to give your horseshít theories on MMT economics a good airing, eh?

petersburg2002

Was amazed to find out that over 85% of electricity in Brazil comes from renewable resources, with the vast majority from hydro plants. Surely, we can do better than we are doing at the moment.

Freddy Smelly

WanabeOlympian wrote: »

I know our government don't really plan in the far future but seeing as we are living on an island, do you think we should stop buying in billions of euro worth of fossil fuels? Instead use wind and wave energy. We're surrounded by sea and lots of wind. I'm sure the infrastructure would be very expensive but if we want to consider what Ireland will be like for young Irish kids today when they are adults, I think we need to start ditching the coal burning stations the esb still use. I assume wind/wave energy will bring the cost down eventually..

there is an estimated 60bil worth of oil off the coast of cork and another 30 bil of shale gas under leitrim and yet we import oil and gas :rolleyes:

KyussBishop

Sergeant wrote: »

Any excuse to give your horseshít theories on MMT economics a good airing, eh?

Strange, I can't find any mention of MMT in my post, and I seemed to be discussing policy, not theory.

KyussBishop

kneemos wrote: »

The consequence of shale oil and gas production will have a huge impact on the price of oil and the longevity of supplies.

The trouble with shale oil/gas though, is that the 'net return on investment' is not nearly as good as with oil from easier to extract wells; it costs more money to extract, and you get less overall return from it, so that oil is priced higher.

It comes with an ecological cost too in pollution, which is hard to quantify monetarily.

bleg

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

You forgot about Nuclear Power

Nuc u lar

Pottler

Slap up a turbine in Dail eireann. Unprecedented gusts of hot air and a good central location. Problem solved.

JRant

Freddy Smelly wrote: »

there is an estimated 60bil worth of oil off the coast of cork and another 30 bil of shale gas under leitrim and yet we import oil and gas :rolleyes:

Why go down that road when we have an endless supply of energy pounding ours shores on a regular basis?
The west coast has some of the best conditions on the planet for wave energy harvesting.
If we were to pump the money that would be needed to extract that oil and gas into R & D on wave and tidal energy we would see benefits for generations to come.

kneemos

KyussBishop wrote: »

The trouble with shale oil/gas though, is that the 'net return on investment' is not nearly as good as with oil from easier to extract wells; it costs more money to extract, and you get less overall return from it, so that oil is priced higher.

It comes with an ecological cost too in pollution, which is hard to quantify monetarily.

I was talking about the effect of America becoming self sufficent in oil and gas,I'm no expert but from what I've heard it's going to be a lot cheaper than middle east oil and American industry is expected to become much more competitive.

JRant

Pottler wrote: »

Slap up a turbine in Dail eireann. Unprecedented gusts of hot air and a good central location. Problem solved.

Get an anaerobic digestion plant in there sharpish.

Funk It

Wind, wave, tidal and solar are all intermittent resources and therefore require a generation mix with fossil fuel and nuclear generators to balance the electricity supply.

Anaerobic Digestion would be ideal for Ireland to use renewables to boost the electricity generation mix, but the tariff's offered are currently too small. It also has the benefit of having a pretty consistent and therefore predictable/easily tradable commodity. In Germany they have thousands of community schemes operating, with a vast amount of them being AD. A similar approach in Ireland would result in guaranteed revenue for farmers for a given time period (e.g. 20 years).

The simple fact is that wave and offshore wind technologies are still in an early stage of development, and are therefore too expensive for mass deployment.

The East-West interconnector (which I have boringly discussed in another forum on boards) will allow for Ireland to eventually export our renewable energy via the UK, but is currently only being used for import.

On the fossil fuels side, oil and gas in particular are open to volatile markets, with coal currently being cheap, coal fired power stations are being run at near full capacity in the UK.

KyussBishop

kneemos wrote:

I was talking about the effect of America becoming self sufficent in oil and gas,I'm no expert but from what I've heard it's going to be a lot cheaper than middle east oil and American industry is expected to become much more competitive.

It's being hyped up all right, but it's not looking like it's actually going to pan out that way; oil from the middle east, pumped from the wells there, is the cheapest and most abundant way of getting oil that there is; shale oil/gas is way more expensive.

Here's a good article on exactly this I saw the other day:
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2012/12/dont-fall-for-the-shale-boom-hype-chris-martenson-interview.html

belcampprisoner

http://www.siliconrepublic.com/clean-tech/item/30796-west-of-ireland-wave-energy/

coolhull

Pottler wrote: »

Slap up a turbine in Dail eireann. Unprecedented gusts of hot air and a good central location. Problem solved.

Trouble is they'd have to turn up every day, and we'd have to pay them even more in expenses

Pottler

coolhull wrote: »

Trouble is they'd have to turn up every day, and we'd have to pay them even more in expenses

Income generation?:)

Cienciano

donegal_road wrote: »

we could have developed alternative energy over the last 15 or so years, but 'Ireland' blew pretty much every last available cent and more, on developments that are lying abandoned or vacant all over the world

Strange post. "ireland" isn't one guy who decides what to spend his money on. We can blame property developers for some things alright, but for not putting their money into developing alternative energy is stretching it.

Capt'n Midnight

Funk It wrote: »

Wind, wave, tidal and solar are all intermittent resources and therefore require a generation mix with fossil fuel and nuclear generators to balance the electricity supply.

Or a big interconnector to Norway and use their hydro-storage.

Or spend some money on research into new types of storage, possibly as heat or kenetic energy on site ?

On the fossil fuels side, oil and gas in particular are open to volatile markets, with coal currently being cheap, coal fired power stations are being run at near full capacity in the UK.

The key here is probably the very low cost of gas in the US reducing the demand for other fossil fuels.

kneemos

Wave energy seems to be a dead duck,apart from a few experimental efforts I've never heard of a working wave energy farm.

Funk It

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Or a big interconnector to Norway and use their hydro-storage.

Interesting that in Scotland plans were finally granted for what I think is going to be the largest pumped water storage installation ever in the UK. It is a great way for balancing the grid when required, and have generally has a very long lifespan when constructed.

Or spend some money on research into new types of storage, possibly as heat or kenetic energy on site ?

Economical energy storage is the holy grail for renewable energy. Wish I had the answer.

The key here is probably the very low cost of gas in the US reducing the demand for other fossil fuels.

Shale gas brought down the price of gas in the US, but it is openly claimed to have been a poorly regulated system. So much for NIMBY-ism where wind turbines are concerned, but what about the 2 earthquakes last year in Lancashire, which were said to be linked to the nearby Cuadrilla shale gas exploration site which has recently been given the green light to begin operating again.

coolhull

Lower gas prices, lower oil prices. Probably won't last long, so let's enjoy it while we can without feeling guilty. Let the next century, and the one after that, look after itself.

questionmark?

Nuclear power in 2012 is as safe as it gets. People think of what happened in Japan, extremely powerful earthquake, tsunami and an aging design, or Chernobyl where soviet incompetence lead to a disaster. How about we look at France and how they generate most of their power from Nuclear energy. At the end of the day we have a number of Nuclear power stations in the UK that if something went wrong would cause a wee bit of suffering in Ireland but yet everybody focuses on one.

Wind energy is the biggest load of bull**** to ever happen as you always need a back up in case mother nature decides to have a quite day.

Funk It

coolhull wrote: »

Lower gas prices, lower oil prices. Probably won't last long, so let's enjoy it while we can without feeling guilty. Let the next century, and the one after that, look after itself.

Century you say? I certainly hope gas and oil prices stay low for that long, thats for sure.

Gas Effect on Energy Bills:
http://www.greenwisebusiness.co.uk/news/dash-for-gas-will-add-600-to-energy-bills-3704.aspx

Ok they used figures from DECC, and being the CCC they will have their own agenda, so take this with a pinch of salt, but I thought that this was pointing out:

"...the primary causes of energy bill increases since 2004 have been an increase in the international price of gas – accounting for nearly two-thirds of the increase in an average household energy bill..."

byhookorbycrook

Chuck Stone wrote: »

If oil companies had to build roads do you think they'd sell as much petrol.

Have you not been up around Rossport?The Shell road?

coolhull

[QUOTE=

"...the primary causes of energy bill increases since 2004 have been an increase in the international price of gas – accounting for nearly two-thirds of the increase in an average household energy bill..."[/QUOTE]

An increase in energy bills doesn't mean that energy sources are running dry. War, politics and plain greed would account for a lot. Remember the oil 'shortages' in the 1970s?

Funk It

questionmark? wrote: »

Nuclear power in 2012 is as safe as it gets. People think of what happened in Japan, extremely powerful earthquake, tsunami and an aging design, or Chernobyl where soviet incompetence lead to a disaster. How about we look at France and how they generate most of their power from Nuclear energy. At the end of the day we have a number of Nuclear power stations in the UK that if something went wrong would cause a wee bit of suffering in Ireland but yet everybody focuses on one.

Wind energy is the biggest load of bull**** to ever happen as you always need a back up in case mother nature decides to have a quite day.

Well, when we look at France we see that they are trying to reduce their reliance on nuclear power.

Nuclear costs per unit are rising (wind becoming competitive):
http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/rea/news/article/2012/12/french-reactor-cost-rises-dramatically-wind-energy-now-cheaper-than-new-nuclear

Once they crack the code for Nuclear Fusion, we will not need to have the renewables debate, but as we have seen this step is still "30 years away", I hope that it is considerably less though.

I thought that this was interesting in relation to wind energy in Brazil, where hydro power is so dominant:
http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/rea/news/article/2012/12/wind-power-sells-at-worlds-lowest-rate-in-brazil-energy-auction

Now, I will totally agree with you that wind is not the answer, but it can be part of the solution to a balanced energy supply. Energy security is the most important aspect as far as I am concerned.

JRant

kneemos wrote: »

Wave energy seems to be a dead duck,apart from a few experimental efforts I've never heard of a working wave energy farm.

Its still at an early stage of development though. There are a few devices already in the wave farms as we speak, in Scotland and Portugal. However these are research sites more viable power generation ones. I beleive the National Grid received its first wave energy into its system recently from the scotish site.
It'll take time and money to make it happen but it took a long time to get the current efficiences and economies of scale from turbine technology.

Funk It

coolhull wrote: »

An increase in energy bills doesn't mean that energy sources are running dry. War, politics and plain greed would account for a lot. Remember the oil 'shortages' in the 1970s?

I thought your post was in regards to low gas and oil prices not reserves? I was just discussing the price increases. As for the remaining resource amount, I honestly haven't a donkeys, I hear figures being brandished about, but it is completely unknown in my eyes.

I agree with your point though, Middle East tensions and the pending Fiscal Cliff in the US are high discussion points in relation to current electricity prices.

JRant

Funk It wrote: »

Well, when we look at France we see that they are trying to reduce their reliance on nuclear power.

Nuclear costs per unit are rising (wind becoming competitive):
http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/rea/news/article/2012/12/french-reactor-cost-rises-dramatically-wind-energy-now-cheaper-than-new-nuclear

Once they crack the code for Nuclear Fusion, we will not need to have the renewables debate, but as we have seen this step is still "30 years away", I hope that it is considerably less though.

I thought that this was interesting in relation to wind energy in Brazil, where hydro power is so dominant:
http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/rea/news/article/2012/12/wind-power-sells-at-worlds-lowest-rate-in-brazil-energy-auction

Now, I will totally agree with you that wind is not the answer, but it can be part of the solution to a balanced energy supply. Energy security is the most important aspect as far as I am concerned.

Couldn't agree more with your last paragraph. It's the key to our future, as we are an island with little fossil fuel reserves ourselves.
The biggest problem we face now is that the big oil and gas companies have seen that we'll keep paying increasing prices for their goods. It's like a crack dealer getting someone hooked with cheap fixes and once they have their claws in they can charge what they like.