An Post €1.75M Fraudster - Criminal or Victim?

byronbay2 · 20-12-2012 02:02PM #1

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/1218/court-tony-o-reilly.html
We have been discussing this on the Gambling forum (yes, I like an occasional flutter!) since last night but I would like to bring the topic to a wider audience, even if that means entering the jungle that is AH.

The story is that 37 year-old post office manager Tony O'Reilly from Carlow (a married man with a 2 year-old child) stole over €1.75 million from his employer (An Post) over the course of 14 months and used it to gamble with bookmaker Paddy Power. He was a very obvious compulsive gambler (he had a turnover of €10 million in his PP account during the 14-month period and placed a €40K bet on Norwegian Ladies Football at one point) and, of course, lost every penny of the money he stole plus all of his own money.

An Post eventually (after, what I consider, a farcical delay) realised what had happened and brought in The Gardai. He was questioned and immediately admitted his crime. He cooperated fully, was charged and pleaded guilty to six charges of theft. Yesterday, he was sentenced to 4 years in prison with 1 year suspended.

Here's the thing: I'm no bleeding heart liberal but I have rarely read a story where I have felt so sorry for the criminal. It was a first offence, nobody was hurt, he admitted his crime and helped Gardai with their investigation, he pleaded guilty, he did not enrich himself in any way and, in my opinion, there are fairly extreme extenuating circumstances for the crimes he committed, in so far as he was addicted to gambling. He has now given up gambling and wants to help others in his situation. I certainly think that a 1-year sentence would have served the same purpose as a 4-year one for this man - I hope he's released after 6 months like most of the real criminals in jail!

The other matter I want to discuss regarding this case is the culpability (or otherwise) of Paddy Power. Mr. O'Reilly was very obviously a compulsive gambler. PP have a code of conduct that precludes it from taking bets from people it believes might be compulsive gamblers. Also, all their staff are trained to spot the signs that a customer may have a problem and to offer them help and advice. All I can say in this situation is: FAIL!! A Post Office manager with a turnover of €10 million in his PP account?? If there was ever an obvious problem gambler, it was Tony O'Reilly. Instead of helping him, Paddy Power wined and dined him with all-expenses paid trips to The Curragh and The Aviva Stadium. Despicable behaviour by PP in my opinion. They knew beyond any doubt that the guy had a serious gambling problem that would inevitably lead to personal catastrophe and did nothing to help him. On the contrary, they happily took him for every penny he had and every penny he could defraud his employers of - so much for their obligation to social responsibility and responsible gambling!

As a side bar, I also personally believe that Paddy Power should return the €1.75 million lost by Mr. O'Reilly to An Post. He was gambling, like all compulsive gamblers, with ZERO chance of winning i.e he would keep gambling until he had nothing left no matter how much he won at any stage along the way. That, in my opinion, is why PP are so culpable - they knew the inevitable outcome better than anyone!

Anyway, rant finally over - this is undoubtedly my longest ever post on Boards. What do you think about this situation? Let me just say, I have no connection whatsoever with Mr. O'Reilly and no general antipathy towards Paddy Power, except in this instance. I have a long-standing account with them and am delighted that an Irish company is doing so well and employing so many.

seamus · 20-12-2012 02:05PM

So if PP should refund the money, does this mean that publicans should refund alcoholics?

Victim, my arse. When you start stealing in order to serve your own personal hobbies, it should instantly ring alarm bells in your head to go and get help.

This guy was no idiot, even thinking about defrauding his employer should have caused him to realise he needs help. I don't understand the compulsive need to take pity on people who walk into things with their eyes open and get burned.

Rented Mule · 20-12-2012 02:06PM

I always feel the same way about those poor bankers and developers.

Ghandee · 20-12-2012 02:09PM

Bet ya 40,000€ he doesn't serve the whole sentence. :pac:

geeky · 20-12-2012 02:09PM

He's not a victim. He has an illness, some would just say a problem, but there is literally no way you can justify stealing millions from your employer.

He has hurt people, because An Post's services will be affected by this loss. No, it's not a junkie killing and robbing someone, but there's no such thing as a victimless crime.

Agree with you totally about Paddy Power. I'd like to see a bit more detail about their policies re compulsive gamblers - and exactly when they determine someone has a problem.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar · 20-12-2012 02:11PM

geeky wrote: »

He has hurt people, because An Post's services will be affected by this loss. No, it's not a junkie killing and robbing someone, but there's no such thing as a victimless crime.

growing and smoking your own weed is one

MagicSean · 20-12-2012 02:13PM

He's a criminal. And I don't know where exactly you get the idea that stealing 1.75m is a victimless crime. Where do you think it comes from?

knucklehead6 · 20-12-2012 02:13PM

paddy Power probably thought is was ANOTHER Tony O Reilly....A rich one. That way a 10 mill turnover wouldn't be out of the ordinary...

sits back to watch the fun.

MagicMarker · 20-12-2012 02:14PM

geeky wrote: »

but there's no such thing as a victimless crime.

Yeah there is.

TwoShedsJackson · 20-12-2012 02:17PM

he did not enrich himself in any way

I could have sworn he enriched himself to the tune of 1.75 million. His choice to then gamble away the lot of it.

somefeen · 20-12-2012 02:17PM

Its an illness yes.
But so is drug addiction, we don't let drug addicts off for stealing.

Steal money, blow it on drugs
Steal money, blow it on gambling.
Same thing

Leroy42 · 20-12-2012 02:17PM

There is really two aspects to this The first is the man himself. He may have an addiction but he made the choice to take the money. He lost 1.75m, but the OP states that he had account of 10m so could have lost way more than that. 4 years with 1 suspended means he will serve about 2, maybe less, which seems far enough.

The other aspect is PP and should they return the money. My reading is that if you buy a stolen car from someone, even if unknown to yourself, the car will be seized. PP now know that this money is stolen, I can't see any difference.

opinion guy · 20-12-2012 02:19PM

TwoShedsJackson wrote: »

I could have sworn he enriched himself to the tune of 1.75 million. His choice to then gamble away the lot of it.

Exactly. If he had and addiction to coke and hookers and spent it on coke and hookers would you be as sympathetic ? Alternatively - if an alcoholic hit someone in his car whilst drunk would we excuse it because he is an alcoholic ?

He may not have ended up enriched, but he certainly enjoyed the money whilst he had it.

Eh wait a minute.....

When the account was examined, it was found that over the period of time it had had a turnover of €10m, with €8.3m in winnings and €1.7m in losses.

According to that he won more than he lost....where is it now ?

Bipolar Joe · 20-12-2012 02:22PM

Not going to get too much into this, but the sentence, based on what is typical for sentencing in this country, is way too big. You can be a violent recidivist, and walk away with four months, sometimes nothing, every time. This gets you four years, one suspended? What a joke.

Boombastic · 20-12-2012 02:22PM

Ghandee wrote: »

Bet ya 40,000€ he doesn't serve the whole sentence. :pac:

Double or quits: The garlic man will be mentioned:pac:

listenup · 20-12-2012 02:26PM

seamus wrote: »

So if PP should refund the money, does this mean that publicans should refund alcoholics?

Victim, my arse. When you start stealing in order to serve your own personal hobbies, it should instantly ring alarm bells in your head to go and get help.

This guy was no idiot, even thinking about defrauding his employer should have caused him to realise he needs help. I don't understand the compulsive need to take pity on people who walk into things with their eyes open and get burned.

well bloody seamus

Death and Taxes · 20-12-2012 02:38PM

byronbay2 wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/1218/court-tony-o-reilly.html
We have been discussing this on the Gambling forum (yes, I like an occasional flutter!) since last night but I would like to bring the topic to a wider audience, even if that means entering the jungle that is AH.

The story is that 37 year-old post office manager Tony O'Reilly from Carlow (a married man with a 2 year-old child) stole over €1.75 million from his employer (An Post) over the course of 14 months and used it to gamble with bookmaker Paddy Power. He was a very obvious compulsive gambler (he had a turnover of €10 million in his PP account during the 14-month period and placed a €40K bet on Norwegian Ladies Football at one point) and, of course, lost every penny of the money he stole plus all of his own money.

An Post eventually (after, what I consider, a farcical delay) realised what had happened and brought in The Gardai. He was questioned and immediately admitted his crime. He cooperated fully, was charged and pleaded guilty to six charges of theft. Yesterday, he was sentenced to 4 years in prison with 1 year suspended.

Here's the thing: I'm no bleeding heart liberal but I have rarely read a story where I have felt so sorry for the criminal. It was a first offence, nobody was hurt, he admitted his crime and helped Gardai with their investigation, he pleaded guilty, he did not enrich himself in any way and, in my opinion, there are fairly extreme extenuating circumstances for the crimes he committed, in so far as he was addicted to gambling. He has now given up gambling and wants to help others in his situation. I certainly think that a 1-year sentence would have served the same purpose as a 4-year one for this man - I hope he's released after 6 months like most of the real criminals in jail!

The other matter I want to discuss regarding this case is the culpability (or otherwise) of Paddy Power. Mr. O'Reilly was very obviously a compulsive gambler. PP have a code of conduct that precludes it from taking bets from people it believes might be compulsive gamblers. Also, all their staff are trained to spot the signs that a customer may have a problem and to offer them help and advice. All I can say in this situation is: FAIL!! A Post Office manager with a turnover of €10 million in his PP account?? If there was ever an obvious problem gambler, it was Tony O'Reilly. Instead of helping him, Paddy Power wined and dined him with all-expenses paid trips to The Curragh and The Aviva Stadium. Despicable behaviour by PP in my opinion. They knew beyond any doubt that the guy had a serious gambling problem that would inevitably lead to personal catastrophe and did nothing to help him. On the contrary, they happily took him for every penny he had and every penny he could defraud his employers of - so much for their obligation to social responsibility and responsible gambling!

As a side bar, I also personally believe that Paddy Power should return the €1.75 million lost by Mr. O'Reilly to An Post. He was gambling, like all compulsive gamblers, with ZERO chance of winning i.e he would keep gambling until he had nothing left no matter how much he won at any stage along the way. That, in my opinion, is why PP are so culpable - they knew the inevitable outcome better than anyone!

Anyway, rant finally over - this is undoubtedly my longest ever post on Boards. What do you think about this situation? Let me just say, I have no connection whatsoever with Mr. O'Reilly and no general antipathy towards Paddy Power, except in this instance. I have a long-standing account with them and am delighted that an Irish company is doing so well and employing so many.

A first offence that went on for years, he systematically stole from his employer.
How do you mean nobody was hurt, he stole €1,750,000 from us, the taxpayer.
He did enrich himself, to the tune of €1,750,000!
As for your whole it's not his fault, Paddy Power let him spend the money, that is just ludicrus.
are you saying that it would have been worse if he stole for something else like holidays? He stole it to spend it, end of.
That said I am not that fond of the idea of locking up non violent offenders if another sensible alternative can be provided.

Odysseus · 20-12-2012 02:46PM

seamus wrote: »

So if PP should refund the money, does this mean that publicans should refund alcoholics?

Victim, my arse. When you start stealing in order to serve your own personal hobbies, it should instantly ring alarm bells in your head to go and get help.

This guy was no idiot, even thinking about defrauding his employer should have caused him to realise he needs help. I don't understand the compulsive need to take pity on people who walk into things with their eyes open and get burned.

I don't know if you can call a serious addiction a hobby? I really doubt he had his eyes open as such, all sorts and levels of denial, rationalisations, etc going on there. Addiction can't exist without those process.

If only is was so easy to recognise you need help; I would be out of a job.

ringadingding · 20-12-2012 02:46PM

The biggest question here is what kind of systems are in place that an post are duped so easily, I mean is nobody checking the money above the office managers ?

Tippexing out amounts and rewriting them ?

Pulling piles of 50's out with pliers ?
Replacing 2c coin bags for 2 euro ones

Any company I've worked for involving cash would have that pounced on this from the first discrepancy.

The person above this guy should be fired too....

LittleBook · 20-12-2012 02:50PM

byronbay2 wrote: »

An Post eventually (after, what I consider, a farcical delay) realised what had happened and brought in The Gardai.

The only part I agree with is this. Any company where an employee can steal this kind of money over that length of time is not being run properly and is probably in violation of money laundering regulations with such unusual cash activity going unnoticed for so long.

seamus · 20-12-2012 02:52PM

Odysseus wrote: »

I don't know if you can call a serious addiction a hobby? I really doubt he had his eyes open as such, all sorts and levels of denial, rationalisations, etc going on there. Addiction can't exist without those process.

That doesn't remove any blame from him though.

I'm aware that addiction is not easy in any sense of the word, but I do know that one of the first steps in tackling addiction is acknowledging that it's entirely on your shoulders and no-one else's.

So I don't think it's an unreasonable standard to expect an addict to be held fully to blame for his/her actions.

ScumLord · 20-12-2012 02:54PM

I knew them savings stamps weren't secure!

charlemont · 20-12-2012 02:55PM

Fúck him, He deserves it.

opinion guy · 20-12-2012 02:58PM

WileyCoyote wrote: »

That said I am not that fond of the idea of locking up non violent offenders if another sensible alternative can be provided.

On the one hand I agree with you here - it only costs more money to lock him up and does neither him, nor anyone else any good. Its also disproportionate to the light sentences people get for violent crimes of late. A suspended sentence + community service might be better. However, on the other hand, I do think some of the people involved in the banking frauds should be imprisoned.

20-12-2012 03:06PM

opinion guy wrote: »

According to that he won more than he lost....where is it now ?

I think the 8 million was the culmination of money won and lost numerous times while the 1.7m loss was the initial investment. Surely if there was 6 million sitting in the account he would have been able to hire a better lawyer

donegal_road · 20-12-2012 03:07PM

knucklehead6 wrote: »

paddy Power probably thought is was ANOTHER Tony O Reilly....A rich one. That way a 10 mill turnover wouldn't be out of the ordinary...

sits back to watch the fun.

wouldn't surprise me if this is part of what happened

Glenbhoy · 20-12-2012 03:10PM

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »

growing and smoking your own weed is one

I think not.

What about all the workers in the gun factories who would lose their jobs if everyone was to adopt such selfish actions? What about the high end jeep manufacturers and retailers and all their employees who would also lose out if drug dealers could no longer afford to splurge out on new wheels? What about the suppliers of equipment to drug enforcement agencies? What about the employees of drug enforcement agencies.....

Back to the main story, the guy had a problem and has been punished, Power's should refund whatever portion of the money can be directly identified as coming from that customer. As many have said, they claim to have all sorts of systems in place for identifying this sort of behaviour and you'd worry about the systems if this particular instance wasn't flagged. I'd actually expect them to make a sizeable donation or likewise by way of reparation.

Odysseus · 20-12-2012 03:10PM

seamus wrote: »

That doesn't remove any blame from him though.

I'm aware that addiction is not easy in any sense of the word, but I do know that one of the first steps in tackling addiction is acknowledging that it's entirely on your shoulders and no-one else's.

So I don't think it's an unreasonable standard to expect an addict to be held fully to blame for his/her actions.

I in no way said or implied any of that, I stated that serious addictions are not personal hobbies.

Of course he has to take personal responsibility for the position he is in; however, there are very strong processes involved in addictions that prevent the subject from seeking help.

The man is in a horrible position but he is the one that got himself there.

One of the first steps is overcoming the denial and other processes and acknowledgeing their is a problem; without that nothing can happen.

However, addictions are complex pathological states which would lead me to say that chap is neither a victim nor a criminal, he may have engaged in criminal activities but I think there is a difference.

Slattsy · 20-12-2012 03:16PM

I bet €40k the OP regrets posting this in AH :pac:

Corkbah · 20-12-2012 03:22PM

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »

growing and smoking your own weed is one

doesn't that mean that the drug dealers suffer a loss in revenue - if everyone does the same, drug dealers go bust !!...the entire illegal drug industry could suffer !!

Boombastic · 20-12-2012 03:25PM

Corkbah wrote: »

doesn't that mean that the drug dealers suffer a loss in revenue - if everyone does the same, drug dealers go bust !!...the entire illegal drug industry could suffer !!

And the Gardai would miss out on a lot of work and publicity.

An Post €1.75M Fraudster - Criminal or Victim?

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