Electricity in Ireland

kneemos · 19-12-2012 11:53PM

KyussBishop wrote: »

The trouble with shale oil/gas though, is that the 'net return on investment' is not nearly as good as with oil from easier to extract wells; it costs more money to extract, and you get less overall return from it, so that oil is priced higher.

It comes with an ecological cost too in pollution, which is hard to quantify monetarily.

I was talking about the effect of America becoming self sufficent in oil and gas,I'm no expert but from what I've heard it's going to be a lot cheaper than middle east oil and American industry is expected to become much more competitive.

JRant · 19-12-2012 11:55PM

Pottler wrote: »

Slap up a turbine in Dail eireann. Unprecedented gusts of hot air and a good central location. Problem solved.

Get an anaerobic digestion plant in there sharpish.

Funk It · 19-12-2012 11:55PM

Wind, wave, tidal and solar are all intermittent resources and therefore require a generation mix with fossil fuel and nuclear generators to balance the electricity supply.

Anaerobic Digestion would be ideal for Ireland to use renewables to boost the electricity generation mix, but the tariff's offered are currently too small. It also has the benefit of having a pretty consistent and therefore predictable/easily tradable commodity. In Germany they have thousands of community schemes operating, with a vast amount of them being AD. A similar approach in Ireland would result in guaranteed revenue for farmers for a given time period (e.g. 20 years).

The simple fact is that wave and offshore wind technologies are still in an early stage of development, and are therefore too expensive for mass deployment.

The East-West interconnector (which I have boringly discussed in another forum on boards) will allow for Ireland to eventually export our renewable energy via the UK, but is currently only being used for import.

On the fossil fuels side, oil and gas in particular are open to volatile markets, with coal currently being cheap, coal fired power stations are being run at near full capacity in the UK.

KyussBishop · 19-12-2012 11:57PM

kneemos wrote:

I was talking about the effect of America becoming self sufficent in oil and gas,I'm no expert but from what I've heard it's going to be a lot cheaper than middle east oil and American industry is expected to become much more competitive.

It's being hyped up all right, but it's not looking like it's actually going to pan out that way; oil from the middle east, pumped from the wells there, is the cheapest and most abundant way of getting oil that there is; shale oil/gas is way more expensive.

Here's a good article on exactly this I saw the other day:
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2012/12/dont-fall-for-the-shale-boom-hype-chris-martenson-interview.html

belcampprisoner · 19-12-2012 11:57PM

http://www.siliconrepublic.com/clean-tech/item/30796-west-of-ireland-wave-energy/

coolhull · 20-12-2012 12:00AM

Pottler wrote: »

Slap up a turbine in Dail eireann. Unprecedented gusts of hot air and a good central location. Problem solved.

Trouble is they'd have to turn up every day, and we'd have to pay them even more in expenses

Pottler · 20-12-2012 12:07AM

coolhull wrote: »

Trouble is they'd have to turn up every day, and we'd have to pay them even more in expenses

Income generation?:)

Cienciano · 20-12-2012 12:08AM

donegal_road wrote: »

we could have developed alternative energy over the last 15 or so years, but 'Ireland' blew pretty much every last available cent and more, on developments that are lying abandoned or vacant all over the world

Strange post. "ireland" isn't one guy who decides what to spend his money on. We can blame property developers for some things alright, but for not putting their money into developing alternative energy is stretching it.

Capt'n Midnight · 20-12-2012 12:21AM

Funk It wrote: »

Wind, wave, tidal and solar are all intermittent resources and therefore require a generation mix with fossil fuel and nuclear generators to balance the electricity supply.

Or a big interconnector to Norway and use their hydro-storage.

Or spend some money on research into new types of storage, possibly as heat or kenetic energy on site ?

On the fossil fuels side, oil and gas in particular are open to volatile markets, with coal currently being cheap, coal fired power stations are being run at near full capacity in the UK.

The key here is probably the very low cost of gas in the US reducing the demand for other fossil fuels.

kneemos · 20-12-2012 12:22AM

Wave energy seems to be a dead duck,apart from a few experimental efforts I've never heard of a working wave energy farm.

Funk It · 20-12-2012 12:40AM

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Or a big interconnector to Norway and use their hydro-storage.

Interesting that in Scotland plans were finally granted for what I think is going to be the largest pumped water storage installation ever in the UK. It is a great way for balancing the grid when required, and have generally has a very long lifespan when constructed.

Or spend some money on research into new types of storage, possibly as heat or kenetic energy on site ?

Economical energy storage is the holy grail for renewable energy. Wish I had the answer.

The key here is probably the very low cost of gas in the US reducing the demand for other fossil fuels.

Shale gas brought down the price of gas in the US, but it is openly claimed to have been a poorly regulated system. So much for NIMBY-ism where wind turbines are concerned, but what about the 2 earthquakes last year in Lancashire, which were said to be linked to the nearby Cuadrilla shale gas exploration site which has recently been given the green light to begin operating again.

coolhull · 20-12-2012 12:50AM

Lower gas prices, lower oil prices. Probably won't last long, so let's enjoy it while we can without feeling guilty. Let the next century, and the one after that, look after itself.

questionmark? · 20-12-2012 12:51AM

Nuclear power in 2012 is as safe as it gets. People think of what happened in Japan, extremely powerful earthquake, tsunami and an aging design, or Chernobyl where soviet incompetence lead to a disaster. How about we look at France and how they generate most of their power from Nuclear energy. At the end of the day we have a number of Nuclear power stations in the UK that if something went wrong would cause a wee bit of suffering in Ireland but yet everybody focuses on one.

Wind energy is the biggest load of bull**** to ever happen as you always need a back up in case mother nature decides to have a quite day.

Funk It · 20-12-2012 01:00AM

coolhull wrote: »

Lower gas prices, lower oil prices. Probably won't last long, so let's enjoy it while we can without feeling guilty. Let the next century, and the one after that, look after itself.

Century you say? I certainly hope gas and oil prices stay low for that long, thats for sure.

Gas Effect on Energy Bills:
http://www.greenwisebusiness.co.uk/news/dash-for-gas-will-add-600-to-energy-bills-3704.aspx

Ok they used figures from DECC, and being the CCC they will have their own agenda, so take this with a pinch of salt, but I thought that this was pointing out:

"...the primary causes of energy bill increases since 2004 have been an increase in the international price of gas – accounting for nearly two-thirds of the increase in an average household energy bill..."

byhookorbycrook · 20-12-2012 01:00AM

Chuck Stone wrote: »

If oil companies had to build roads do you think they'd sell as much petrol.

Have you not been up around Rossport?The Shell road?

coolhull · 20-12-2012 01:06AM

[QUOTE=

"...the primary causes of energy bill increases since 2004 have been an increase in the international price of gas – accounting for nearly two-thirds of the increase in an average household energy bill..."[/QUOTE]

An increase in energy bills doesn't mean that energy sources are running dry. War, politics and plain greed would account for a lot. Remember the oil 'shortages' in the 1970s?

Funk It · 20-12-2012 01:15AM

questionmark? wrote: »

Nuclear power in 2012 is as safe as it gets. People think of what happened in Japan, extremely powerful earthquake, tsunami and an aging design, or Chernobyl where soviet incompetence lead to a disaster. How about we look at France and how they generate most of their power from Nuclear energy. At the end of the day we have a number of Nuclear power stations in the UK that if something went wrong would cause a wee bit of suffering in Ireland but yet everybody focuses on one.

Wind energy is the biggest load of bull**** to ever happen as you always need a back up in case mother nature decides to have a quite day.

Well, when we look at France we see that they are trying to reduce their reliance on nuclear power.

Nuclear costs per unit are rising (wind becoming competitive):
http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/rea/news/article/2012/12/french-reactor-cost-rises-dramatically-wind-energy-now-cheaper-than-new-nuclear

Once they crack the code for Nuclear Fusion, we will not need to have the renewables debate, but as we have seen this step is still "30 years away", I hope that it is considerably less though.

I thought that this was interesting in relation to wind energy in Brazil, where hydro power is so dominant:
http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/rea/news/article/2012/12/wind-power-sells-at-worlds-lowest-rate-in-brazil-energy-auction

Now, I will totally agree with you that wind is not the answer, but it can be part of the solution to a balanced energy supply. Energy security is the most important aspect as far as I am concerned.

JRant · 20-12-2012 01:21AM

kneemos wrote: »

Wave energy seems to be a dead duck,apart from a few experimental efforts I've never heard of a working wave energy farm.

Its still at an early stage of development though. There are a few devices already in the wave farms as we speak, in Scotland and Portugal. However these are research sites more viable power generation ones. I beleive the National Grid received its first wave energy into its system recently from the scotish site.
It'll take time and money to make it happen but it took a long time to get the current efficiences and economies of scale from turbine technology.

Funk It · 20-12-2012 01:21AM

coolhull wrote: »

An increase in energy bills doesn't mean that energy sources are running dry. War, politics and plain greed would account for a lot. Remember the oil 'shortages' in the 1970s?

I thought your post was in regards to low gas and oil prices not reserves? I was just discussing the price increases. As for the remaining resource amount, I honestly haven't a donkeys, I hear figures being brandished about, but it is completely unknown in my eyes.

I agree with your point though, Middle East tensions and the pending Fiscal Cliff in the US are high discussion points in relation to current electricity prices.

JRant · 20-12-2012 01:33AM

Funk It wrote: »

Well, when we look at France we see that they are trying to reduce their reliance on nuclear power.

Nuclear costs per unit are rising (wind becoming competitive):
http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/rea/news/article/2012/12/french-reactor-cost-rises-dramatically-wind-energy-now-cheaper-than-new-nuclear

Once they crack the code for Nuclear Fusion, we will not need to have the renewables debate, but as we have seen this step is still "30 years away", I hope that it is considerably less though.

I thought that this was interesting in relation to wind energy in Brazil, where hydro power is so dominant:
http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/rea/news/article/2012/12/wind-power-sells-at-worlds-lowest-rate-in-brazil-energy-auction

Now, I will totally agree with you that wind is not the answer, but it can be part of the solution to a balanced energy supply. Energy security is the most important aspect as far as I am concerned.

Couldn't agree more with your last paragraph. It's the key to our future, as we are an island with little fossil fuel reserves ourselves.
The biggest problem we face now is that the big oil and gas companies have seen that we'll keep paying increasing prices for their goods. It's like a crack dealer getting someone hooked with cheap fixes and once they have their claws in they can charge what they like.

Capt'n Midnight · 20-12-2012 04:07AM

Chuck Stone wrote:

If oil companies had to build roads do you think they'd sell as much petrol.

LOL
Just who exactly do you think sells tarmac / asphalt ?

Capt'n Midnight · 20-12-2012 04:17AM

questionmark? wrote: »

How about we look at France and how they generate most of their power from Nuclear energy

Fukushima would not have happened had the lessons from France been learnt. You need to build the sea wall at least high enough to cover all historical floodings and you need backup power that can survive a flooding.

Oh yeah on sites with two reactors, the French were relying on the other reactor for emergency power , 'cos you'd hardly loose both now would you ( the nuclear industry is littered with such optimistic / cost cutting thinking ) ... they are supposed to be rectifying but I can't confirm it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999_Blayais_Nuclear_Power_Plant_flood

The 1999 Blayais Nuclear Power Plant flood was a flood that took place on the evening of December 27, 1999. It was caused when a combination of the tide and high winds led to the sea walls of the Blayais Nuclear Power Plant in France being overwhelmed.[1] The event resulted in the loss of the plant's off-site power supply and knocked out several safety-related systems, resulting in a Level 2 event on the International Nuclear Event Scale.[2] The incident illustrated the potential for flooding to damage multiple items of equipment throughout a plant, weaknesses in safety measures, systems and procedures, and resulted in fundamental changes to the evaluation of flood risk at nuclear power plants and in the precautions taken
...
The adequacy of the sea walls has, however, been disputed by Professor Jean-Noël Salomon, head of the Laboratory of Applied Physical Geography at Michel de Montaigne University Bordeaux 3, who believes that, due to the potential harm and economic cost that would result from a future flood-related disaster, the sea walls should be designed to withstand simultaneous extreme events, rather than simultaneous major events

Could a Fukushima event happen in France ?
It very nearly did, and it's unlikely but possible it could happen again, especially since 100 year storm surges happen more often these days.

Capt'n Midnight · 20-12-2012 04:18AM

Funk It wrote: »

but what about the 2 earthquakes last year in Lancashire, which were said to be linked to the nearby Cuadrilla shale gas exploration site which has recently been given the green light to begin operating again.

Then again Hydro reservoirs have been blamed for earthquakes too.

Chuck Stone · 20-12-2012 05:42AM

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

LOL
Just who exactly do you think sells tarmac / asphalt ?

Yeah but I'd say the tar is a mere a fraction of the cost of building the road.

What I was getting at is that governments subsidise the oil industry in all sorts of ways we don't normally consider* and yet people cry foul when they subsidise renewables.

*Building roads, airports and sea ports.

Underwriting externalities such as security and pollution.

kneemos · 20-12-2012 06:48AM

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Yeah but I'd say the tar is a mere a fraction of the cost of building the road.

What I was getting at is that governments subsidise the oil industry in all sorts of ways we don't normally consider* and yet people cry foul when they subsidise renewables.

*Building roads, airports and sea ports.

Underwriting externalities such as security and pollution.

Oil generates mountains of cash,even if governments do build infrastructure you can be sure they will get a return on it.

Funk It · 20-12-2012 09:01AM

This report on EU renewable energy percentages per country was released a couple days ago, some of you might find it interesting (its on page 2 by the way):

http://www.eurobserv-er.org/pdf/press/year_2012/RES/English.pdf

Renewable energy projects are changing rapidly, more international developers are getting involved and are selling on projects to large investors or even pension investment funds. Once Ireland can give investors confidence in subsidies, long term fixed price power purchase agreements and embedded benefits we will see much greater deployment. Ireland being a relatively new energy market, such as both the Republic and NI now operate as a Single Energy Market, it will take time to get things right.

mikemac1 · 20-12-2012 09:21AM

We could have have a nuclear power plant in Carnsore Point only for Christy Moore and his ragtag bunch of NIMBYs

So now we buy nuclear power from the UK over the interconnector and the South West has the worst unemployment of any region

kneemos · 20-12-2012 09:31AM

Funk It wrote: »

This report on EU renewable energy percentages per country was released a couple days ago, some of you might find it interesting (its on page 2 by the way):

http://www.eurobserv-er.org/pdf/press/year_2012/RES/English.pdf

Renewable energy projects are changing rapidly, more international developers are getting involved and are selling on projects to large investors or even pension investment funds. Once Ireland can give investors confidence in subsidies, long term fixed price power purchase agreements and embedded benefits we will see much greater deployment. Ireland being a relatively new energy market, such as both the Republic and NI now operate as a Single Energy Market, it will take time to get things right.

So investers can cover the country in turbines and rake in subsidies for decades no matter what happens in energy developement?

CruelCoin · 20-12-2012 09:31AM

WanabeOlympian wrote: »

I know our government don't really plan in the far future but seeing as we are living on an island, do you think we should stop buying in billions of euro worth of fossil fuels? Instead use wind and wave energy. We're surrounded by sea and lots of wind. I'm sure the infrastructure would be very expensive but if we want to consider what Ireland will be like for young Irish kids today when they are adults, I think we need to start ditching the coal burning stations the esb still use. I assume wind/wave energy will bring the cost down eventually..

There is enough coal reserves to last us at least another 150 years, thats not something that fluctuates wildly in price.

Wave is interesting, but to power dublin, you would need a floating island the size of cork to power it. That is an obscene amount of resources for something we already have the infrastructure for.....

Wind is also iffy, as precisely the time you need the power (winter) is the time the winds blows the weakest....

Wind and wave to power all our needs is a fantasy.

Dempsey · 20-12-2012 11:01AM

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Then again Hydro reservoirs have been blamed for earthquakes too.

Also ,man made reservoirs have been proven to cause climate change in their local region, i.e. more rainfail.

Electricity in Ireland

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