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The Bible, Creationism, and Prophecy (part 2)
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Perhaps to show that the Sun isn't required to produce night and day ... thereby putting the nature worshippers 'Sun God' firmly in it's place.
This idea seems illogical to me as he does this visual trickery with light during a time when no one exists to see it.
Also by saying in the 10 commandments - thou shalt not have false Gods before me, he has that concern of people worshipping Sun Gods well covered. 0 -
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The Concrete Doctor wrote: »It never fails to amaze me, how people like you, who take the bible literally, can quote tracts as being the inspired word of God, then when a tract which is downright nasty is pointed out, it suddenly becomes imperfect and not the word of God. That is why so many people, who are inspired by much of what is written, say with total justification, that it can NEVER, EVER, be taken literally. No doubt you will retort with some other gobbledegook but you have ZERO credibility with any normal, thinking, human being.
Well this is how it works…
The bible is to be taken literally, until it contradicts itself, then it is to be glossed over. But its important to remember that the Bible is never wrong, until it is, then its ignored. However Gods words are final and the Bible is the word of God.
The problem with the Bible is that it is both infallible and yet the Church acknowledges that it can’t be taken literally. Which is a contradiction. And who gets to decide which parts are correct and which are completely made up?
The facts are that the Bible is filled with contradictions and statements that have been scientifically discredited.
For example:
Gen 32:30 “For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.”
John 1:18 states, “No man hath seen God at any time”
James 1:13 “For God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man.”
Gen 22:1 “And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham”
Samuel 6:23 “Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child unto the day of her death”
Samuel 21:8 “But the king took the five sons of Michal the daughter of Saul”
Confusing?
My personal favourites, the passages that were used by the Church to convict Galileo of heresy:
Psalms 93:1 “The world is firmly established; it cannot be moved. “
Chronicles 16:30 “The world is firmly established; it cannot be moved. “
Psalms 104:5 “He set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved.”
Joshua 10:12 “Joshua said to the LORD in the presence of Israel: "O sun, stand still over Gibeon, O moon, over the Valley of Aijalon. “
But we all know that the Earth is round. Not only that, but that it spins, it moves around the Sun, its part of a solar system that also moves, and that solar system is part of a larger collection of systems that move, so on so forth. Basically the Earth is not fixed. So Galileo was right, but was found guilty by the Church, using the Bible as FACT.
The Bible tells us that the Earth is flat:
Matt 4:8: ”Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them.”
Revelation 7:1 “After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth”
Daniel 4:10-11 “and there before me stood a tree in the middle of the land. Its height was enormous. The tree grew large and strong and its top touched the sky; it was visible to the ends of the earth”
Oppsss…
According the Bible, diseases are caused by demons and prayer is the answer:
Matthew 9:32 “A mute could talk after having the demon driven out”
Matthew 17:14-18 “A demon caused seizures in a boy”
Mark 5:1-13 “A group of spirits caused a man to be insane”
Luke 13:11 “A spirit crippled a woman”
James 5:14-15 “Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up”
But we now know that diseases happen naturally, some can be cured, some can’t. And how many now prefer medicine to an exorcism? So the Bible was wrong about that too.
Yet according to Creationists the Bible tells us the age of the Earth and that how it came into being. That this account is fact. And the science is wrong.
Speaking of which…
The creation of the world according to the Bible:
Genesis 1:1–2:3:
1) light and darkness
2) sky waters, sea waters, and a vault between them
3) land and plants
4) sun, moon, stars
5) aquatic and flying animals
6) land animals and people (male and female)
Genesis 2:4–25:
1) earth and heavens (including a garden in Eden, and various streams of water)
2) man (Adam)
3) rain; beasts of the field, birds of the air; plants (exact order not specified)
4) woman
Confused again?
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Well it wouldn't make sense to use a kettle to argue against the Bible would it?K User; don't you think it somewhat ironic that you use the bible literally to argue against using the bible literally?
And is it really surprising in a conversation about the Bible that references from the Bible are used? 0 -
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But who decides which part of what is written is the truth and which part is the story?They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths,
Like the creation myth of Genesis? Which btw has a truth, just not the truth of how things started.
Because if both are in the Bible and both are claiming to be the truth and the Bible is the word of God...well...then its a catch 22. If you believe one part then it stands to reason that you believe the rest. But if huge sections are completely wrong, then what does it say about the rest?
And there are no footnotes, little comments down the bottom of the page saying that this part is slightly exaggerated.
If we didn't have satellites up in space that have photographed every inch of this planet and everything around it, we'd still have people arguing that the world is flat and that the sun circled it. Why? Because its written in the Bible, therefore it must be true. 0 -
But as I already pointed out, it also says this:All I'll say to that piece of mischief making in relation to the veracity of the Bible and the orthodoxy of Bible-believing Christians is contained the following apropriate verses:-
2 Timothy 4:2-4
New International Version (NIV)
2 Preach the word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction. 3 For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4 They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.
James 5:14-15 “Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up”
So where do you go when you get sick? The local church, or your local doctor? Because if you do the latter, then you are disagreeing with the Bible...
*Edit:
Or again is it just the case that some parts can be glossed over, while others should be dogmatically stuck too - like that the Earth is flat...sorry that was wrong...that the Earth doesn't move...sorry that was disproven....that the Earth is only x number of years old and was created in 7 days...sorry the Church admits that some of that is only a "story", but other has to be true! 0 -
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Not so.Well this is how it works…
The bible is to be taken literally, until it contradicts itself, then it is to be glossed over. But its important to remember that the Bible is never wrong, until it is, then its ignored. However Gods words are final and the Bible is the word of God.
The problem with the Bible is that it is both infallible and yet the Church acknowledges that it can’t be taken literally. Which is a contradiction. And who gets to decide which parts are correct and which are completely made up?
The facts are that the Bible is filled with contradictions and statements that have been scientifically discredited.
John is correct.For example:
Gen 32:30 “For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.”
John 1:18 states, “No man hath seen God at any time”
Here is the full text from Genesis ...
24 And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.
25 And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him.
26 And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me.
27 And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob.
28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.
29 And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there.
30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.
It is clear that this is an account of a struggle between Jacob and a man ... and Jacob had a fertile imagination.
Here is the full text from John ...
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.
16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.
17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
No man has seen God ... except in His Incarnation as Jesus Christ.James 1:13 “For God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man.”
Gen 22:1 “And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham”
God can test people ... but He never tempts people with evil.
... only if you don't know your Bible!!Samuel 6:23 “Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child unto the day of her death”
Samuel 21:8 “But the king took the five sons of Michal the daughter of Saul”
Confusing?
Michal had no children from that date until her death. She had previously been married and had children by Adriel.
The 'world' that is firmly established is the 'world' in which we live ... that sits firmly upon the Earth.My personal favourites, the passages that were used by the Church to convict Galileo of heresy:
Psalms 93:1 “The world is firmly established; it cannot be moved. “
Chronicles 16:30 “The world is firmly established; it cannot be moved. “
Psalms 104:5 “He set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved.”
Joshua 10:12 “Joshua said to the LORD in the presence of Israel: "O sun, stand still over Gibeon, O moon, over the Valley of Aijalon. “
But we all know that the Earth is round. Not only that, but that it spins, it moves around the Sun, its part of a solar system that also moves, and that solar system is part of a larger collection of systems that move, so on so forth. Basically the Earth is not fixed. So Galileo was right, but was found guilty by the Church, using the Bible as FACT.
Here is an example of the distinction between the Earth and the world thereon:-
Psalm 77:18
The voice of thy thunder was in the heaven: the lightnings lightened the world: the earth trembled and shook.
These are all turns of phrase ... that are still used today.The Bible tells us that the Earth is flat:
Matt 4:8: ”Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them.”
Revelation 7:1 “After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth”
Daniel 4:10-11 “and there before me stood a tree in the middle of the land. Its height was enormous. The tree grew large and strong and its top touched the sky; it was visible to the ends of the earth”
Illness can have a spiritual as well as a physical source. Prayer and modern medicine can work hand in hand ... and some cases require only medicine ... and others have no cure except a miracle.According the Bible, diseases are caused by demons and prayer is the answer:
Matthew 9:32 “A mute could talk after having the demon driven out”
Matthew 17:14-18 “A demon caused seizures in a boy”
Mark 5:1-13 “A group of spirits caused a man to be insane”
Luke 13:11 “A spirit crippled a woman”
James 5:14-15 “Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up”
But we now know that diseases happen naturally, some can be cured, some can’t. And how many now prefer medicine to an exorcism? So the Bible was wrong about that too.
Science also tells us that the Bible is correct on this.Yet according to Creationists the Bible tells us the age of the Earth and that how it came into being. That this account is fact. And the science is wrong.
Again your confusion is due to a lack of Biblical Knowledge (although your interest isn't in doubt).Speaking of which…
The creation of the world according to the Bible:
Genesis 1:1–2:3:
1) light and darkness
2) sky waters, sea waters, and a vault between them
3) land and plants
4) sun, moon, stars
5) aquatic and flying animals
6) land animals and people (male and female)
Genesis 2:4–25:
1) earth and heavens (including a garden in Eden, and various streams of water)
2) man (Adam)
3) rain; beasts of the field, birds of the air; plants (exact order not specified)
4) woman
Confused again?
Genesis 1 presents an account of Creation in chronological order ... while Genesis 2 presents it in subject order.
Just two different types of account of the Creation Events.:)0 -
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It's all true ... both the historical accounts and the words of God.But who decides which part of what is written is the truth and which part is the story?
Because if both are in the Bible and both are claiming to be the truth and the Bible is the word of God...well...then its a catch 22. If you believe one part then it stands to reason that you believe the rest. But if huge sections are completely wrong, then what does it say about the rest?
And there are no footnotes, little comments down the bottom of the page saying that this part is slightly exaggerated.
It isn't written in the Bible ... and it can be clearly established by observing the movement of the Universe each night ... either the Earth is circular and spinning ... or the entire Universe orbits around the Earth every day.If we didn't have satellites up in space that have photographed every inch of this planet and everything around it, we'd still have people arguing that the world is flat and that the sun circled it. Why? Because its written in the Bible, therefore it must be true.
I think it's pretty obvious which hypothesis is physically possible!!!:)0 -
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Hey JCNot so.
John is correct.
It is clear that this is an account of a struggle between Jacob and a man ... and Jacob had a fertile imagination.
No man has seen God ... except in His Incarnation as Jesus Christ.
God can test people ... but He never tempts people with evil.
Have to say I find this all rather fascinating. So according to your good-self the Bible is completely right, open to interpretation and was written by people with a fertile imagination?
For example:
Gen 32:30 “For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.”
John 1:18 states, “No man hath seen God at any time”
Both are in the Bible, plain as day. Yet you have stated that only John’s account is correct, that Jacob was prone to flights of literary fancy. So that begs the question, how much else is pure imagination? And who decides?
James 1:13 “For God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man.”
Gen 22:1 “And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham”
And again, your interpretation is that God only test, not tempts with evil. But it is written that he tempts. Your interpretation versus what is written?
And then we have the definition of evil to contend with. What is it? “Thou shall not Kill” is one of the commandments set out by God. Is to break Gods word evil? Yet it is written that God ordered Abraham to kill his own child. Ok, he didn’t have to go through with it. But if killing is a sin, why would God order someone to kill? Consistency?
"Now it came about after these things, that God tested Abraham, and said to him, Abraham!' And he said, 'Here I am.' 2 And He said, 'Take now your son, your only son, whom you love, Isaac, and go to the land of Moriah; and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I will tell you”
And that is the only problem with that piece, because we know that Abraham had another son, Ishmael, who was a teenager at the time. So did God get it wrong? Or was it just a slip of the tongue?
The problem is that the Bible was written by many different people, years apart, many of whom didn’t actually witness what happened. That’s why there is no consistency. And with the best of intentions, man gets things wrong, man has, as you have already said, a fertile imagination.
Again your interpretation of something that was written, then corrected, but left in the Bible.... only if you don't know your Bible!!
Michal had no children from that date until her death. She had previously been married and had children by Adriel.
Yes, they are turns of phrase today, but the Church was very firm on what was the truth back in the 1600’s.The 'world' that is firmly established is the 'world' in which we live ... that sits firmly upon the Earth.
Here is an example of the distinction between the Earth and the world thereon:-
Psalm 77:18
The voice of thy thunder was in the heaven: the lightnings lightened the world: the earth trembled and shook.
These are all turns of phrase ... that are still used today.
You see back then it was absolutely unthinkable that a mere member of the public could interpret the Bible. But Galileo said publicly that the interpreters of the Bible could make mistakes, and that it was a mistake to assume that the Bible had to be taken literally. Heresy and Inquisition followed.
And to know how serious it was to question anything in the Bible check out what happened to poor Giordano Bruno.
However Galileo was found innocent the first time. Course when he chose to write a book on the movement of the Earth and the stars, he was threatened with torture, until he publicly confessed that he had been wrong to say that the Earth moved around the Sun. And he was confined to house arrest until his death.
So here is the problem, you say that in this case the Bible isn’t to be taken literally, that its clearly established that the Earth is round and that it travels through space. However the Church had a very different view up until someone popped a large camera up into space and said “look, Galileo was right”.
So again it has to be asked, who gets to decide when and where the Bible is wrong? And at what point will people stop taking it so literally? At what point do people stop believing 2000 year old writings of men with fertile imaginations?
And in some cases?Illness can have a spiritual as well as a physical source. Prayer and modern medicine can work hand in hand ... and some cases require only medicine ... and others have no cure except a miracle.
Really? Where?Science also tells us that the Bible is correct on this.
I think I’m pretty ok on my Biblical knowledge thanks. I can see it for what it is. I understand where it came from. Its historical importance, and how it can be used in modern context.Again your confusion is due to a lack of Biblical Knowledge (although your interest isn't in doubt).
Genesis 1 presents an account of Creation in chronological order ... while Genesis 2 presents it in subject order.
Just two different types of account of the Creation Events.:)
However I don’t depend on it to explain the origins of the world and how life came into being. We have science for that. 0 -
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