Re How the Irish Govnerment are killing people for our debt

ilovesleep · 13-12-2012 10:33AM

Didn't CIE get 36m during the summer?
And they turned around last week and increased fares by 18%, pretty much giving themselves a pay increase.

And the government allowed them.

And yet the government turns around and cuts carers?.

Where's the sense in that? If they wanted to make a true saving they'd stop with those increases.

Please don't forget that advisors to politicians also got a pay rise by their master going over the paycap layed out.

Robbing from Peter to pay Paul.

Its Behind You! · 13-12-2012 11:41AM

Jimoslimos wrote: »

I never made any sort of suggestion of the sort, so cut the faux outrage. I merely outlined the reason why governments don't shift 100% of spending to caring for the sick, elderly and disabled.

.

I'm aware the next part will seem callous and cold but spending money on the sick, elderly and disabled doesn't do anything to reduce our debt (at least not immediately) - and not reducing our debt means we'll be even less likely to provide those services in the future.

Show me which part of the above is you merely outlining the govenments fiscal policy on health care?

It reads like a personal opinion to me.

bnt · 13-12-2012 01:23PM

Money spent on health care is not "lost". It is still a functional contribution to the economy. It pays salaries, it leads to investment in research and technology, and so on. It is not 100% efficient, of course, but neither is it a dead loss (sorry) to the economy. And before someone starts on about Bastiat and the broken window fallacy: yes, I know, but a person's health care needs, and what we do to meet them, are not as simple as the need to fix a window that got broken.

This is more of an argument about how much of a role the government should play in an economy and in healthcare. For example, my mother died many years ago of cancer, in a country with no government health care system (South Africa). We had health insurance, which came out of my dad's salary, and AFAIK we managed OK. It wasn't like the USA today, where the costs of healthcare are crippling even to people with insurance: that isn't a model to emulate, with its profit motive. I was too young to be involved in the details, but I remember it was a "mutual" insurance scheme, backed by a miner's employee association or the like - not a for-profit system like BUPA or VHI. It doesn't have to be all government or all private for-profit companies.

SEPT 23 1989 · 13-12-2012 01:31PM

I was thinking about this the other night

What if the carers got together and put an ultimatum to the government,
Reverse this cut or we will leave the our loved ones at the local A&E in the care of the HSE

poeticseraphim · 13-12-2012 02:01PM

fkt wrote: »

''for our debt''...

It sounds as though you don't respect the importance of paying down our debt. It will be alot worse than one death here and there if we don't.

This is the ignorance which got us into this.

FIRSTLY

We are speaking of where we make cuts. There are options of scrapping the CP agreement making other public services suffer.

Secondly not paying has not hurt Iceland it is Greece which failed to pay when it tries ....which is where we will be

joydivision · 13-12-2012 02:21PM

Can I get this straight . People are calling the government bastards for cutting thego on holliday money it gives to people for looking after their own parents ?
These people ,children, carers are argueing the government owes it to them because they had the decency to not put them in a home at the governments expense ?
I may have this all mixed up but come on . Its your parents .

Chips Lovell · 13-12-2012 02:26PM

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

I was thinking about this the other night

What if the carers got together and put an ultimatum to the government,
Reverse this cut or we will leave the our loved ones at the local A&E in the care of the HSE

It was actually something mentioned by protesters yesterday.

Personally I think that dumping people in A&E departments would seriously damage public sympathy for the carers.

mikom · 13-12-2012 02:27PM

joydivision wrote: »

Can I get this straight . People are calling the government bastards for cutting thego on holliday money it gives to people for looking after their own parents ?
These people ,children, carers are argueing the government owes it to them because they had the decency to not put them in a home at the governments expense ?
I may have this all mixed up but come on . Its your parents .

Have you ever heard of breathing space?

joydivision · 13-12-2012 02:30PM

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

It was actually something mentioned by protesters yesterday.

Personally I think that dumping people in A&E departments would seriously damage public sympathy for the carers.

Not only that . What kind of sick maniacs would leave their sick mother on a door step for the sake of a few quid . Whoever thought this up sees their sick parents as a burden and if not paid enough would be happy to dump them at an a and e department with the rest of them .

mikom · 13-12-2012 02:34PM

joydivision wrote: »

Not only that . What kind of sick maniacs would leave their sick mother on a door step for the sake of a few quid . Whoever thought this up sees their sick parents as a burden and if not paid enough would be happy to dump them at an a and e department with the rest of them .

There will be old folks up and down this country booked into A & E then left there until they get a hospital bed over this upcoming festive period.
It happens every year unfortunately, so the scum can party while mammy or daddy are taken care of.

joydivision · 13-12-2012 02:34PM

mikom wrote: »

Have you ever heard of breathing space?

I have three kids . 6 / 2 and 1 . If I need breathing space I get a baby sitter .

mikom · 13-12-2012 02:34PM

joydivision wrote: »

I have three kids . 6 / 2 and 1 . If I need breathing space I get a baby sitter .

Can your babysitter operate a hoist?

eviltwin · 13-12-2012 02:36PM

joydivision wrote: »

I have three kids . 6 / 2 and 1 . If I need breathing space I get a baby sitter .

Ignorant beyone belief :eek:

joydivision · 13-12-2012 02:37PM

mikom wrote: »

Can your babysitter operate a hoist?

She could if I showed her how it wirked . Surely a family or friend could help out regurlarly . If not you only have to train a babysitter on hoist operation once .
Who is operating the hoists when your all outside leinster house ¿

joydivision · 13-12-2012 02:41PM

eviltwin wrote: »

Ignorant beyone belief :eek:

Please explain

mikom · 13-12-2012 02:41PM

joydivision wrote: »

She could if I showed her how it wirked . Surely a family or friend could help out regurlarly . If not you only have to train a babysitter on hoist operation once .

So, you would let your frail loved one be lifted on a hoist by a babysitter who you trained once how to operate this piece of equipment.
You don't have a clue what you are posting about to be fair.

eviltwin · 13-12-2012 02:47PM

joydivision wrote: »

Please explain

Being the parent of a special needs child is nothing like being the parent of an able bodied child. Its hard enough to get a baby sitter if your child is fit and well, much harder when that child needs round the clock attention.

I once had to visit a family of a young boy with MS. I spent an hour in the company of him and his fit and healthy parents. I was exhausted after an hour and I was just doing minor things. I left that house and I remember feeling relief that I could get in the car and go home but his parents can never do that.

They were run ragged. They had to schedule time to have showers, normal things like going to the shops had to be planned with military precision. They never go out, they hadn't had a night out together since he had been born. They didn't have a supply of babysitters ready to take over if they needed time off.

It was a real eyeopener. I would never begrudge those people the money to get some time to themselves to just feel human again, to reconnect, to see their friends or just have fun for a few days.

Carers are amazing people, I don't think those of us who don't have to deal with a sick or diabled person really appreciate just how much they actually do.

joydivision · 13-12-2012 02:51PM

Come on lets be honest . The country was booming . You were getting free holidays to look after your own parents . The land of milk and honey .
Now the money is not there . Id be glad it lasted as long as it did .
To say you cant leave the house or have a rest because nobody else can operate the hoist except you is desperate .
Its a free holiday like . Who looks after the parents then . Or when you go shop ?

Cavehill Red · 13-12-2012 02:53PM

joydivision wrote: »

Come on lets be honest .

Yes, let's be honest. You're trolling, aren't you? Describing respite care as 'free holidays' is not only a deliberate misrepresentation of reality but a deliberately inflammatory one too.

mikom · 13-12-2012 02:54PM

joydivision wrote: »

Come on lets be honest . The country was booming . You were getting free holidays to look after your own parents . The land of milk and honey .
Now the money is not there . Id be glad it lasted as long as it did .
To say you cant leave the house or have a rest because nobody else can operate the hoist except you is desperate .
Its a free holiday like . Who looks after the parents then . Or when you go shop ?

I'm was getting nothing, as I am not even a carer.
I just happen to know the pressure they are under.......... and sticking Peppa pig on the dvd player is not going to fix that.

eviltwin · 13-12-2012 02:55PM

joydivision wrote: »

Come on lets be honest . The country was booming . You were getting free holidays to look after your own parents . The land of milk and honey .
Now the money is not there . Id be glad it lasted as long as it did .
To say you cant leave the house or have a rest because nobody else can operate the hoist except you is desperate .
Its a free holiday like . Who looks after the parents then . Or when you go shop ?

Not everyone uses the money for a holiday. Some people are using that money to buy vital equipment for their loved one or to cover bills etc.

pconn062 · 13-12-2012 02:57PM

joydivision wrote: »

Come on lets be honest . The country was booming . You were getting free holidays to look after your own parents . The land of milk and honey .
Now the money is not there . Id be glad it lasted as long as it did .
To say you cant leave the house or have a rest because nobody else can operate the hoist except you is desperate .
Its a free holiday like . Who looks after the parents then . Or when you go shop ?

I can't actually believe I'm stooping low enough to bother replying to your posts, but I just have to ask, why do you only keep mentioning looking after elderly parents? I know the answer is because it suits you own agenda but many carers are parents looking after their own extremely disabled children, a job that is 24/7 365 days a year.

My sister is exactly like that and I only hope that you never end up like my parents with a child like this, I wouldn't wish it on anyone. And if you think that the money is just a for a nice holiday you really aren't living in reality.

Hannibal Smith · 13-12-2012 02:58PM

joydivision wrote: »

Come on lets be honest . The country was booming . You were getting free holidays to look after your own parents . The land of milk and honey .
Now the money is not there . Id be glad it lasted as long as it did .
To say you cant leave the house or have a rest because nobody else can operate the hoist except you is desperate .
Its a free holiday like . Who looks after the parents then . Or when you go shop ?

nothing like stirring it ey? how about you thank your lucky stars all around you are fit and well and you don't have to give up everything to look after a parent. how do you pay a mortgage, bills, buy food on nothing?

we're a social state...we help each other out...that's why our taxes go to help people who need it.

go hire yourself a babysitter and go look in your local nursing home and see what that all entails.

joydivision · 13-12-2012 03:08PM

Hannibal Smith wrote: »

nothing like stirring it ey? how about you thank your lucky stars all around you are fit and well and you don't have to give up everything to look after a parent. how do you pay a mortgage, bills, buy food on nothing?

we're a social state...we help each other out...that's why our taxes go to help people who need it.

go hire yourself a babysitter and go look in your local nursing home and see what that all entails.

I worked doing accessible bathrooms for people who got huge grants for them .
Ive seen how it is.
Ive turned been on the way to houses to have the boss ring me saying the person who it was for had died . We would still go do the bathroom the following week . There is huge wastage going on here .

Its Behind You! · 13-12-2012 03:09PM

Folks this is getting messy and disrespectful to Golden Light and to her mother.

If I may refocus, for me, this is the key of what Golden Light was sharing with us.

"When they refused my application of Carer's Allowance. (back in July) her doctor out of frustration, even said "What do they want, her to be dead".

From a professional health carer, this is very telling and an accurate summary of how I would suggest many at the coal face are feeling.

IMO, For the Government, looking after the sick, the elderly and infirm is way too expensive to do with the quality level of service that it deserves.

They bring nothing to the economy, and are only a burden on it.

So the Governments attitude is, let 'em take their chances, good night, good luck, goodbye, cherrio.

Hannibal Smith · 13-12-2012 03:11PM

joydivision wrote: »

I worked doing accessible bathrooms for people who got huge grants for them .
Ive seen how it is.
Ive turned been on the way to houses to have the boss ring me saying the person who it was for had died . We would still go do the bathroom the following week . There is huge wastage going on here .

yeah...that makes you an authority on the subject alright

joydivision · 13-12-2012 03:26PM

Challenging an opinion is not trolling . If somebody wants to start a thread discussing something they have to be prepared to have it discussed .
I think everyone is getting cut from first hand I seen people living very comfortable lives getting 10 and 20 grand grants for bathrooms to be made accessible .
I worjed in one house for 4 weeks . Family turned up to thiss mans house twice to look at the new bathroom . The sitting room and kitchen were covered in mouse droppings . They never lifted a hoover . One of them was getting carers allowance .

Countless times I did bathrooms after the person needed it was deceased .
There is corruption right through the carer grant system if that was stamped out maybe there would be more money . Itd probably still be spent on polititian perks though .
I put a stairlift in one womans house after her husband died and she said she was still putting it in incase she needed it in a few years .

GoldenLight · 13-12-2012 03:27PM

joydivision wrote: »

Can I get this straight . People are calling the government bastards for cutting thego on holliday money it gives to people for looking after their own parents ?
These people ,children, carers are argueing the government owes it to them because they had the decency to not put them in a home at the governments expense ?
I may have this all mixed up but come on . Its your parents .

It's not actually "going on Holiday Money" it is called "Respite Allowance", I for one never used it to go on holiday ( I haven't gone away anywhere in the last 10 years) it is generally used by the carer, to help them support their parents/child in the home.

Infact the more I read your post, I'm going WTF do I have explain to you, but I will cause it appears to be a genuine confusion.

I was paid 70 cent an hour by the state to take care of my MOM, I decided to do this and take a cut from €15.50 per hour job. Why cause she was my Mother and needed my help. I worked 24/7 with about 4 hours a week off, why because she was my Mother.

All of this I would redo again in a heart beat. For the State to pay for this care, it would have cost over €1,000 a week

My Mum, was allowed to live her life in the house she had bought (after paying 70 years of Taxes) in a dignified manor on her pension (after paying 70 years of Taxes) throughout her illness in her home (after paying 70 years of Taxes) surround by people who loved her.

You see when someone you love needs your help, you drop everything to be there for them. Our Government are thinking the same way as you and they are hoping that because we are carering for people we love, we will continue to do so. In every budget Carer's have being hit, any other part of Social welfare payments hasn't

end of the road · 13-12-2012 03:36PM

Fromthetrees wrote: »

I think all or most of the semi state bodies should be sold off.

the companies maybe, the infrastructure they use should be kept in state hands at all costs.

Fromthetrees wrote: »

I think teachers should work during the summer months doing something productive.

why? their entitled to a holiday, and actually correcting exams is productive, what else could they do.

Fromthetrees wrote: »

I think the fact you have a guaranteed job and pension in the public sector with a powerful union behind you, paid sick days ect. ect. should mean you get paid 10% less than an equivalent job in the private sector.

why? you should get the same as or more then the private sector, you and others need to get away from this idea the the public sector should be like the private sector, both to different sectors so never going to happen, our boys and girls in the public sector do jobs that many wouldn't do and work hard, sure their are chancers, they should be weeded out.

end of the road · 13-12-2012 03:41PM

fkt wrote: »

''for It sounds as though you don't respect the importance of paying down our debt. It will be alot worse than one death here and there if we don't.

in fairness you can't expect somebody to care about oure "debt" when their caring for sick or disabled relatives, nobody is disputing the importance of paying it all though the bank debt we took on is a different story.

Re How the Irish Govnerment are killing people for our debt

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